137 réponses à ce sujet

[Vazgen]

It is illogical. This was the organization that fed colonists to thresher maws to test the scientific effects of feeding colonists to thresher maws and has continuously displayed a knack for not only being untrustworthy but highly incompetent and short sighted as well. I think it means a lot that Shepard can never seriously bring up anything that happened in the first game and TIM never bothers defending his actions.

I'm not sure what you refer to. I was talking about Cerberus making sure that Shepard will do what they need him to do. What does ME1 events have to do with it? The whole conversation was about Shepard heading straight to the Alliance after getting the ship. 

So, let's assume you bring up ME1 events and TIM gives you perfectly valid reasons for doing that. What does that change? Will you go pro-Cerberus all of a sudden? Or he tells you that he did it for the lolz. Will your anti-Cerberus opinion change? Because I can't see how someone can start ME2 with pro-Cerberus opinion. 

[ImaginaryMatter]

I'm not sure what you refer to. I was talking about Cerberus making sure that Shepard will do what they need him to do. What does ME1 events have to do with it? The whole conversation was about Shepard heading straight to the Alliance after getting the ship. 

So, let's assume you bring up ME1 events and TIM gives you perfectly valid reasons for doing that. What does that change? Will you go pro-Cerberus all of a sudden? Or he tells you that he did it for the lolz. Will your anti-Cerberus opinion change? Because I can't see how someone can start ME2 with pro-Cerberus opinion. 

 

That's why I mentioned TIM's short sidedness. Given how Cerberus acted in ME1 there is no reason why anyone like Shepard would work for them; unless there was a serious, in depth explanation of their actions (which probably doesn't exist). Also, given that TIM doesn't install a control chip when the option was available, they didn't make sure Shepard would do what they needed him to do. Even after the meeting, TIM doesn't force Shepard to do anything, Shepard just decides to help them because no other option, for the player, is given and the story has to move forward.

[Vazgen]

That's why I mentioned TIM's short sidedness. Given how Cerberus acted in ME1 there is no reason why anyone like Shepard would work for them; unless there was a serious, in depth explanation of their actions (which probably doesn't exist). Also, given that TIM doesn't install a control chip when the option was available, they didn't make sure Shepard would do what they needed him to do. Even after the meeting, TIM doesn't force Shepard to do anything, Shepard just decides to help them because no other option, for the player, is given and the story has to move forward.

I'm unsure whether you read the previous posts. I gave a reason why Shepard goes with Cerberus instead if returning to the Alliance.

The whole resurrection idea is stupid, no one would spend that much resources to bring back one soldier, even as symbolic as Shepard. But Shepard working with Cerberus instead of running back to the Alliance makes sense. 

[von uber]

Coming late to the series and playing all three one after the other, having to side with cerberus after me1 is very jarring. I kept waiting for a chance to tell them to get stuffed and head back to the alliance.
I didn't want shep to work for a terrorist organisation, she was a spectre and an alliance officer, not a terrorist sympathiser and certainly not for an organisation she had actively been fighting in me1.

[SporkFu]

It is illogical. This was the organization that fed colonists to thresher maws to test the scientific effects of feeding colonists to thresher maws and has continuously displayed a knack for not only being untrustworthy but highly incompetent and short sighted as well. I think it means a lot that Shepard can never seriously bring up anything that happened in the first game and TIM never bothers defending his actions.

It's kinda funny, but I always felt that TIM is very good at... well, being elusive ... whenever shep questions him or Cerberus. Please don't ask me for specific examples cause I don't have any quotes off the top of my head, heh, but.. okay, like after the collector ship, or Horizon. Cynics will say it's just another example of sh*tty writing from Bio but... whatever. When I really get into the story -- and I still can do that, even after (because of) so many playthroughs -- I'll find myself muttering, "just answer the damn question you SOB." and smiling at the way he turns things around on shep.

[Fixers0]

More of this stuff  please, It's really quite amusing to see how vigorously  some people defend this kind of bad writing. Seriously, the Cerberus railroading sits right on the top of  list with reasons as to why Mass Effect 2's main narrative so laughably bad.

[Obadiah]

I don't understand why people keep saying ME2s plot isn't a proper part of the trilogy, or that it doesn't fit into the overall story of the pending Reaper invasion.
 
To me it fits in fine.
ME1: Introduces us to the ME galaxy.
ME2: Explore galaxy further, and introduces us to the lawless (overly romanticized) side of the galaxy
ME3: Marshall all resources (influence and allies) from the first 2 games, upend-the-powers that be, fight the Reapers.
 
It's a pretty standard Bioware progression.
 
With respect to the actual ME2 plot, in ME1, Shepard, a human, leads a rogue bad of aliens and stops the Reaper invasion. By the beginning of ME2 the Reapers have obviously taken a distinct interest in Shepard, and quite possibly even humanity. The Reapers try to make a human Reaper. Why? Maybe a human Reaper would be that much more effective fighting the human race? Maybe they wanted Shepard's body so it could be part of the human Reaper? The Reapers didn't tell us, but its safe to assume that letting them build the Reaper would have been bad.
 
If Shepard hadn't stopped the Collectors, how many more people would dead just in ME2? Millions? Billions? How much damage would a Reaper running around the galaxy pre-invasion done to our infrastructure?
 
As a second act ME2 fine. To fight the Reapers, whack their plan.

Almost forgot: TIM gives the best speech supporting Control in the climax to ME3. People seem to have a problem with one of the main antagonists having a position that, in some sense, is quite reasonable. I don't. The plot isn't for the immature, and the good guys don't always have the right of it.

[ImaginaryMatter]

I don't understand why people keep saying ME2s plot isn't a proper part of the trilogy, or that it doesn't fit into the overall story of the pending Reaper invasion.
 
To me it fits in fine.
ME1: Introduces us to the ME galaxy.
ME2: Explore galaxy further, and introduces us to the lawless (overly romanticized) side of the galaxy
ME3: Marshall all resources (influence and allies) from the first 2 games, upend-the-powers that be, fight the Reapers.

 

For me, ME2 establishes elements of the story that I strongly dislike; mainly Cerberus retcon(s), the overblown importance of Shepard, and the unjustified anthropocentrism. The net result of all of these is that it turns Mass Effect from more space opera to more generic AAA shooter, which isn't necessarily bad but the market is already full of them. And most of them are better at it than the Mass Effect series.

 

As for ME2 specifically the thing comes off like a sloppy reboot. At the most superficial level we're working for Cerberus, which is nothing like the group encountered in the first (which the game barely bothers to rectify); and we're fighting a proxy war with the Collectors. who are never mentioned in the first game, are never even established to have a plan that could work (their plan wouldn't have worked even if the bits and pieces of Shepard weren't stitched back together), and are then beaten anyway in the same game they are introduced without advancing much of the plot forward (I think it's telling that more of ME2 DLC is referenced in ME3 than the actual story of ME2). Yes, the game does expand on the universe, which is the good stuff; but the the games dealing with the main Reaper plot line is often nonsensical, sometimes frustrating, and mostly pointless. The final damage is taking what little of the Reapers that was established and throwing it away and making the collective governments of the galaxy into overly inept and apathetic, transforming the fight against the Reapers from an obstacle to overcome to Shepard making up for everyone's unrealistic and uninteresting shortcomings.

 

As for TIM, I don't think that's why most people dislike him. People find Saren's goals sympathetic and he was actually working for a Reaper, not ostensibly opposing them. The main problem with TIM is the baggage that is Cerberus (his own actions); the organization is such a comedic mess that it makes TIM look like ME's version of Cobra Commander and the CEO of the Umbrella Corporation. Another problem is that the Indoctrination card is used so fast and loose that it strips him of any solid characterization and leaves him a drooling tool of the plot, so Shepard can have plenty of mooks to shoot.

[Obadiah]

Gonna just uncompact and comment:

For me, ME2 establishes elements of the story that I strongly dislike; mainly Cerberus retcon(s),
'''

We're not given enough information on Cerberus in ME1 to really call what we learn in ME2 a retcon. Cerberus in ME2 is simply expanded upon.
 

...
the overblown importance of Shepard, and the unjustified anthropocentrism.
...

Agreed.
 

...
The net result of all of these is that it turns Mass Effect from more space opera to more generic AAA shooter, which isn't necessarily bad but the market is already full of them. And most of them are better at it than the Mass Effect series.
...

Even with all of that, I still consider Mass Effect a space opera well and above most of what it out there. There is WAY too much conversation and interaction in this game for it to be considered just a generic AAA shooter. Shooting is one of the mechanics of the gameplay, but the player's judgement and interactive story is still very much front and center, even with the much criticized lessening of interactivity present in ME3.
 

...
As for ME2 specifically the thing comes off like a sloppy reboot. At the most superficial level we're working for Cerberus, which is nothing like the group encountered in the first (which the game barely bothers to rectify);
...

What's to rectify? Cerberus was barely in the first game. ME2 was free to expand upon them, or any other organization introduced in ME1 as it saw fit.
 

...
and we're fighting a proxy war with the Collectors. who are never mentioned in the first game, are never even established to have a plan that could work (their plan wouldn't have worked even if the bits and pieces of Shepard weren't stitched back together), and are then beaten anyway in the same game they are introduced without advancing much of the plot forward (I think it's telling that more of ME2 DLC is referenced in ME3 than the actual story of ME2). Yes, the game does expand on the universe, which is the good stuff; but the the games dealing with the main Reaper plot line is often nonsensical, sometimes frustrating, and mostly pointless.
...

The trilogy's plot is: the Reapers are coming; stop the Reapers. We stopped the Collectors, therefore we fought the Reapers, and put down one more of their mechanization to enact the harvest. We learned more about the Reapers during the story, and we gained a new ally in the fight (well... some of us did anyway) in the Geth. The plot has advanced.
 

...
The final damage is taking what little of the Reapers that was established and throwing it away and making the collective governments of the galaxy into overly inept and apathetic, transforming the fight against the Reapers from an obstacle to overcome to Shepard making up for everyone's unrealistic and uninteresting shortcomings.
...

*Cough* I thought it was interesting. We have the world that exists today for plenty of examples of inept leadership with unrealistic expectations. Its not exactly an implausible or unrealistic story.
 

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As for TIM, I don't think that's why most people dislike him.
...

I don't know what people are saying NOW about him, but the argument I remember being made on this forum when then backlash was in full swing was that Control had Shepard making a choice in the Decision Chamber that the Commander had just argued against 5 minutes earlier with TIM. I don't really see that as a problem.
 

...
People find Saren's goals sympathetic and he was actually working for a Reaper, not ostensibly opposing them. The main problem with TIM is the baggage that is Cerberus (his own actions); the organization is such a comedic mess that it makes TIM look like ME's version of Cobra Commander and the CEO of the Umbrella Corporation.
...

That's just because we players are more privy to Cerberus' eff-ups than their successes. If you take the organization as a whole, it is highly effective, and able to accomplish quite a bit.
 

...
Another problem is that the Indoctrination card is used so fast and loose that it strips him of any solid characterization and leaves him a drooling tool of the plot, so Shepard can have plenty of mooks to shoot.

I don't think indoctrination strips TIM of characterization at all. The man was ruthless in his pursuit of his goals of power and advancement of humanity. Some part of him, just like Saren, was willing and complicit in the decisions and actions that he took, even without the influence of the Reapers. In the end, he tangled with power that he could not control and became lost it. He is a tragic enemy that had to be defeated. I personally like the whole arc of his story from ME2 to ME3, but, of course, I always saw Cerberus as an organization that was an enemy that needed to be stopped.

[ImaginaryMatter]

*snip*

 

With Cerberus between ME1 and ME2 each installment, you can say it's all consistent with the lore and handwave the discrepancies by saying that not enough was known about the group (but even then you still have things like Cerberus suddenly not originating as an Alliance black-ops unit). The real problem is how they are represented in the narrative. Back in ME1, Cerberus was unambiguously evil with no shade of grey, they fed colonists to Thresher Maws to test the scientific effects of feeding colonists to Thresher Maws; it's hard to even say they were competent or pragmatic as they were a pro-human group that managed to exclusively kill humans if their stuff didn't manage to blow up on them (extreme Umbrella Corp vibes). Again I think it's telling that none of this can be brought up in ME2, as if doing so would bring more attention and scrutiny. TIM never defends his actions or Cerberus's, he never explains it as part of a bigger picture, and never tries to convince Shepard; instead it simply gets ignored and Shepard is railroaded into joining them. I guess we can say there wasn't enough stuff in ME1 to paint a full picture of them but no one even bothers with what was already there -- and what's there conflicts with the ME2 gray extremist Cerberus.

 

Stories are built on build-ups and pay-offs. When an element like Cerberus is in the story, one that can constantly change whenever the writer's need or want it to, it really dissolves any kind of tension or cohesiveness in a story. It's like a television show where the unquestionably, long dead parent of a character is suddenly revealed not to have actually been dead; you can say the viewers never did physically see the body get shot, then get a time lapse of the thing decaying, and a full DNA analysis of the corpse in the coffin; but it still leaves a wrong feeling. In ME1 there's no sign of Cerberus being part of any thing larger, no hook to base a twist off of; what happens is that one day the organization is completely different than what it was before and it leaves that impression.

 

This narrative problem with Cerberus extends further than their inconsistency between each game or comic book, it affects how they come off in individual installments. Take for example, this explanation that their incompetency comes off because Shepard is usually sent in as clean up. This is a show, not tell issue. Being exposed to Cerberus screw-ups on such a consistent basis sets the expectation that it is the usual, while all this great stuff they've done off camera seems like an accident, or even worse, contrived. I say this is a comedic mess because Shepard is neck deep in this stuff. Half of all Cerberus operations seem to be rogue cells, as a covert group they stencil their logo on everything (again Saturday Morning cartoon villain vibes) and almost everyone seems to know we're working for them, they still manage to have almost exclusively human victims and the only time they're experiments don't kill civilians is when it breaks loose and starts killing Cerberus personnel. TIM's plan for taking on the Collector's, banks on the Collectors being equally incompetent (which to be fair, turns out to be exactly the case), as a by product of this almost all the ME2 main plot line missions have horribly justified set-ups (the low point being the Collector Ship mission).

 

As for Control, I think the frustration comes as a result of TIM. Ostensibly, if his arc is about anything it's a parable of why control is bad (both Paragon and Renegade options denounce control as a bad idea for anyone to attempt), a sentiment reflected by the cast of characters in the game, and almost any character involved with the Reapers in the entire series. It's not so much that control is bad, it's that the story consistently paints it as a bad idea, only to reverse it in the last 15 minutes. It's a whiplash of sorts. This doesn't undercut too bad the arguments for it in a meta-sense, but as far as game design is concerned, it's awkward to have this presented as an actual option.

[Obadiah]

I always thought Cerberus was unambiguously evil, even when working for them in ME2. I didn't think that was really in question. TIM and Miranda gave good explanations of what the organization was about, but they used that to justify some pretty immoral actions. They were, however, the only people willing to look into the missing colonists, so Shepard had to work with them. Sure, we players are forced to join them, but given the circumstances it was not really that difficult to accept.

I played the trilogy games, and from the story I didn't get the sense that Cerberus was comedically incompetent until Joker made a comment about it in Citadel. They resurrected Shepard, built the Normandy, and managed to acquire a lot of influence and power along the way. That doesn't happen through incompetence. I don't need to be shown their competence explicitly to know it is there. Mass Effect is a sci-fi action game and as such, almost every situation is an action packed catastrophe that Shepard steps in to - be it a Cerberus rescue, or a Blue Suns facility, a intergalactic prison, or a plague breakout on Omega.

Certainly the presentation of Cerberus changed in the three games, but the idea that they are "constantly" changing doesn't really hold when its only three games, and one of the games has barely any information about Cerberus. In that circumstance, I don't really see a Cerberus plot pay-off as necessary between the story installments. They're a secretive black-ops organization that we don't know much about in ME1. The end.

As for Control, I didn't find the "whiplash" terribly "awkward". The reason we were trying to stop TIM is because we thought his ideas weren't possible until very near the ending, when he finally established some communication and, what appeared to be, control. The Decision Chamber is a twist ending, and the choices do sort of spin all of the previous character's expectations and advice for destroying the Reapers on their heads (except maybe for Javik and Samara), which is part of why I like it.

[FlyingSquirrel]

I think the bottom line is that Mass Effect is a collection of great characters and concepts attached to a somewhat haphazard, made-up-as-they-went-along structure. "Here is this amazingly complex and fascinating picture of humanity's future and the state of the galaxy in the 2180s for you to explore. Oh, and also, billion-year-old superbeings are about to kill everybody and you have to stop them. But feel free to go do a bunch of sidequests along the way, because nothing ever really happens anywhere until the exact moment that you arrive."

[MegaIllusiveMan]

One part of your post I don't agree with:

 

Sure, Mass Effect 2 could be to prepare more for things to come, but Shepard does fight an imminent threat, a REAPER threat, that if it's not stopped, can wipe out all of Human Civilization, and IMO, it fits best, since Cerberus is the only group that is looking in it, being so pro-human and such.

 

See, there is still a Reaper threat. But not galaxy threatening scale... Or wasn't it? Couldn't the Proto-Human/Reaper be used to exterminate all of the galaxy in a blink of eyes?

[ImaginaryMatter]

One part of your post I don't agree with:

 

Sure, Mass Effect 2 could be to prepare more for things to come, but Shepard does fight an imminent threat, a REAPER threat, that if it's not stopped, can wipe out all of Human Civilization, and IMO, it fits best, since Cerberus is the only group that is looking in it, being so pro-human and such.

 

See, there is still a Reaper threat. But not galaxy threatening scale... Or wasn't it? Couldn't the Proto-Human/Reaper be used to exterminate all of the galaxy in a blink of eyes?

 

The problem that I have with the Reaper the Collectors were building is that it would have taken millions of more people just to complete the thing. For the Collectors that would mean they would have to start attacking the bigger worlds that even the contrived lazy and apathetic Alliance would take notice and defend. Considering the Collectors were done in by a single frigate and a dozen or so people on foot I doubt they would have had much success. Their plan would never have worked regardless of Shepard's or Cerberus's involvement.

 

Even if they did complete the Reaper then what? Would it be any more successful than Sovereign? This isn't to say that the Collectors couldn't have a plan; heck, maybe they even had a good one but none of this is explained, which is the problem.

[SporkFu]

The problem that I have with the Reaper the Collectors were building is that it would have taken millions of more people just to complete the thing. For the Collectors that would mean they would have to start attacking the bigger worlds that even the contrived lazy and apathetic Alliance would take notice and defend. Considering the Collectors were done in by a single frigate and a dozen or so people on foot I doubt they would have had much success. Their plan would never have worked regardless of Shepard's or Cerberus's involvement.

Even if they did complete the Reaper then what? Would it be any more successful than Sovereign? This isn't to say that the Collectors couldn't have a plan; heck, maybe they even had a good one but none of this is explained, which is the problem.

At the time of ME2 the reaper invasion was imminent; more so if you play Arrival before the suicide mission. In that light the Collectors' abduction of human colonies could be seen as prep work.

[AlanC9]

I spent the better part of September playing all 3 games back to back which, while being a lot of fun, was quite eye opening.  ME1 was Bioware and Microsoft and is a pretty much a stand alone game.  ME2 & ME3 are Bioware and EA and everything changes.  ME2 is basically a reboot of ME1 right from the beginning.  In ME2 Shepard builds a team and goes on a "suicide mission" which everybody playing the game knows is not a "suicide mission." .

And ME1 is a "race against time" that everyone knows is not a "race against time." I don't see the difference.

[Iakus]

And ME1 is a "race against time" that everyone knows is not a "race against time." I don't see the difference.

Actually "Race against time" is only the name of the quest and not mentioned anywhere else.  Anderson even tells Shepard "don't even try to find Saren"

[Vit246]

*EDITS BELOW*

I want to give my two cents on the "conventional victory" part.

 

Conventional victory WAS possible. It was frakking hinted by the end of ME1. By the Prothean AI Vigil.

In every cycle, the Reapers, always, ALWAYS, Zerg-rushed their way into the galaxy by entering through the Citadel, which is always the galactic center of galactic civilization. They kill off the galactic leadership and then take control of and shutdown the entire Mass Relay Network. They destroy galactic communications and travel and cut off every star system from each other. 

The Reapers break the galaxy's ability to fight back before the civilizations have any idea that they are even under attack. They then slowly and methodically travel to every planet and harvest. They're patient, nobody can even fight back, so they can take all the time they need to finish the cycle.

 

What does this tell me? It tells me this. The Reapers never had to fight a conventional war. They never had to fight a united and prepared galaxy that was long aware of their existence. We never needed a Macguffin in the form of the Crucible. Maybe a superweapon in the form of that Klendagon super Mass Accelerator Cannon, but not the Crucible.

 

The writers should've followed with this idea. In ME2, the Citadel civilizations should've been seriously developing their militaries with more ships, more dreadnoughts, and more Thanix Cannons. They should've used the Geth attack on the Citadel as an excuse to start a massive galactic arms race.  And Shepard, being the Special Snowflake that he is, should probably be already trying to fix every species' problems and uniting the species in preparation for the Third Act. And ME2 never turns out to be a massive waste of time and filler.

And Cerberus, don't even get me started on Cerberus. Cerberus should never have been more than a small rogue Alliance black ops unit with limited resources that gets weakened and humbled by a one-man army Special Snowflake called Shepard. It should never have been a private galactic superpower with its own military that rivals the Council and the Alliance in the span of 26 years. If there HAD to be a "Cerberus", why not use the SHADOW BROKER? The Shadow Broker would've been perfect for that role since its been doing its job for centuries at least. And if I had my way, the Shadow Broker's identity would NEVER have been revealed and never become a boss fight. Or if revealed, it would been some sort of VI or Artificial Intelligence created by uploading the brains of an Asari, a Salarian, and a Turian. Or just a Salarian.

 

And the Terminus Systems, which were supposed to be the Soviet Union of Mass Effect, should've united with the Citadel and the rest of the galaxy as well.

 

And then in ME3, here's how the Reapers enter the galaxy in a desperate kind of way. After a lengthy cost-benefit analysis, they all combine together Voltron-style into a connected mass of Reapers and all use their Element Zero cores to hyperspace their way out of dark space. AT A PRICE. They all get weakened by this desperate resort. Some of them even get destroyed. They're brought down to our levels. They're still quite powerful, being Reapers. And the united and prepared galaxy will still be in for the fight of their lives with everything they got now. 

Thats how a conventional victory might work.

It was so damn simple.

[Iakus]

I want to give my two cents on the "conventional victory" part.

 

Conventional victory WAS possible. It was frakking hinted by the end of ME1. By the Prothean AI Vigil.

In every cycle, the Reapers, always, ALWAYS, Zerg-rushed their way into the galaxy by entering through the Citadel, which is always the galactic center of galactic civilization. They kill off the galactic leadership and then take control of and shutdown the entire Mass Relay Network. They destroy galactic communications and travel and cut off every star system from each other. 

The Reapers break the galaxy's ability to fight back before the civilizations have any idea that they are even under attack. They then slowly and methodically travel to every planet and harvest. They're patient, nobody can even fight back, so they can take all the time they need to finish the cycle.

 

What does this tell me? It tells me this. The Reapers never had to fight a conventional war. They never had to fight a united and prepared galaxy that was long aware of their existence. We never needed a Macguffin in the form of the Crucible. Maybe a superweapon in the form of that Klendagon super Mass Accelerator Cannon, but not the Crucible.

 

The writers should've followed with this idea. In ME2, the Citadel civilizations should've been seriously developing their militaries with more ships, more dreadnoughts, and more Thanix Cannons. They should've used the Geth attack on the Citadel as an excuse to start a massive galactic arms race.  And Shepard, being the Special Snowflake that he is, should probably be already trying to fix every species' problems and uniting the species in preparation for the Third Act.

 

And the Terminus Systems, which were supposed to be the Soviet Union of Mass Effect, should've united with the Citadel and the rest of the galaxy as well.

 

And then in ME3, here's how the Reapers enter the galaxy in a desperate kind of way. After a lengthy cost-benefit analysis, they all combine together into a connected mass of Reapers and all use their Element Zero cores to hyperspeed their way out of dark space. AT A PRICE. They all get weakened by this method. Some of them even get destroyed. They're still quite powerful, being Reapers. And the united and prepared galaxy will still be in for the fight of their lives with everything they got now. 

Thats how a conventional victory might work.

 

 

Shh, stop thinking!  Certainly not about the previous games!  Who cares what happened then?  This is the Superbowl!  Time for WAR!  And TRAGEDY!  And FEELZ!!!

 

The Reapers have over a hundred thousand Sovereign-class Reapers alone!  THEY CANNOT BE DEFEATED CONVENTIONALLY!!!!!!!!

[ImaginaryMatter]

At the time of ME2 the reaper invasion was imminent; more so if you play Arrival before the suicide mission. In that light the Collectors' abduction of human colonies could be seen as prep work.

 

Without the Arrival DLC the Reapers are still left out in darkspace without a way into the galaxy.

 

With Arrival, the Collectors actions seem even more like a pointless side story.

[dreamgazer]

Conventional victory opens up a whopper of a plot hole: why didn't another advanced civilization, our of billions of years of cycles, do it sooner? The assumption that all this hasn't happened before in a similar fashion during that span is preposterous.

Shh, stop thinking!  Certainly not about the previous games!  Who cares what happened then?  This is the Superbowl!  Time for WAR!  And TRAGEDY!  And FEELZ!!!
 
The Reapers have over a hundred thousand Sovereign-class Reapers alone!  THEY CANNOT BE DEFEATED CONVENTIONALLY!!!!!!!!

Dial down the drama, will you?

No, they can't. At the bare minimum, ME2 destroyed any semblance of that possibility.

[ImaginaryMatter]

Conventional victory opens up a whopper of a plot hole: why didn't another advanced civilization, our of billions of years of cycles, do it sooner? The assumption that all this hasn't happened before in a similar fashion during that span is preposterous.

 

Throw in a bunch of stuff about thanix cannons, unity, 2000 year delay, blah, blah, blah that would be unique to this cycle. This stuff already exists in the story (the Reapers were held up by guerrilla tactics and smuggling nuclear weapons onto their ships? And Javik says the Protheans were technology wise a match for the Reapers? The Reapers fascination with Shepard). Contrived? Sure. But the writers are going to hit that rock no matter where they go. And given the state of the Crucible lore, I would say there are worse things than conventional victory on that front.

[dreamgazer]

Eh, at least the Crucible takes previous cycles into account. Conventional victory makes a lot of ignorant assumptions about prior advanced civilizations.

[Khemikael]

[...]

 

The writers should've followed with this idea. In ME2, the Citadel civilizations should've been seriously developing their militaries with more ships, more dreadnoughts, and more Thanix Cannons. They should've used the Geth attack on the Citadel as an excuse to start a massive galactic arms race.

[...]

 

And the Terminus Systems, which were supposed to be the Soviet Union of Mass Effect, should've united with the Citadel and the rest of the galaxy as well.

 

[...]

First, the citadel concil didn't believe in the Reapers, they thought Sovereign was nothing but a geth dreadnought. They didn't want to go to war, Saren was THE bad boy, he died, we won, everyone is happy, curtains. It may sound dumb but this is still plausible. Sometimes, people don't want to live with a threat upon their heads. Sometimes leaders don't want people to panic. As a result everyone buries his head in the sand like an ostrich.

 

Second, USSR = Terminus Systems? really? USSR was a dictactorship, the terminus system is the outlaw part of the galaxy. One had lots of rules and limited freedom, the other has a lot of freedom and limited rules.