137 réponses à ce sujet

[Ithurael]

Conventional victory opens up a whopper of a plot hole: why didn't another advanced civilization, our of billions of years of cycles, do it sooner? The assumption that all this hasn't happened before in a similar fashion during that span is preposterous.

 

Maybe it is just me but somehow I thought the travel from dark space to the Milky Way would have an affect on the Reapers and I definitly thought that the explosion from Arrival would have some kind of major affect on them that would be explained in ME3 ( I mean they were RIGHT at the heels when the relay went nova). But...then again...I was a silly silly goose for thinking that.

[AlanC9]

I never saw how the journey could really have hurt the Reapers unless there was no possible way for them to recharge once they reached the Milky Way. They didn't have to start the attack the moment they showed up.

[Zana]

The reason why I dislike ME2 is because storywise you could cut it out completely without having series suffer a plothole.  Only thing added by it is some attempt to develop Cerberus (very poorly because actions of Cerberus are inconsistent across the 3 games), Geth-Quarian conflict (which can be left purely for ME3) and EDI.  Heck, you could make an excellent side-quest from ME2 for ME3.  Just cut out every single new companion and their loyalty missions (with possible exception of Tali as hers is used to develop said Geth-Quarian conflict). 

 

Starting right after battle for Citadel:

 

SR1 destroyed in Collector attack (Shepard survives)

Alliance rebuilds SR2 with new technology including a VI (that later becomes self aware, ie what EDI already did on Luna) and asks Shepard to investigate

-SR2 could have been in construction before destruction of SR1 to explain short amount of time needed

-Can also put finding the Crucible here, but at the basic stage where scientists just trying to figure what it is

Have Shepard visit 2 or 3 places (Freedom's Progress to learn of Collectors, Horizon to fail at stopping them and Derelict Reaper for codes)

Then go through relay blow up the base.  Some gameplay changes during the base due to smaller number of companions.

Then have Reapers invade.

 

Drop the majority of Cerberus from ME3 (Mars, Citadel invasion and even Chronos Station) and you have game similar in length as current ME3.  Thessia can be changed to work either without KL or have archives destroyed by Reaper right as Shepard is just getting to the building or something.

 

I suspect that I am biased, but I think the number of inconsistencies involving Cerberus in the trilogy is greatly detracting from the game.

[Vit246]

First, the citadel concil didn't believe in the Reapers, they thought Sovereign was nothing but a geth dreadnought. They didn't want to go to war, Saren was THE bad boy, he died, we won, everyone is happy, curtains. It may sound dumb but this is still plausible. Sometimes, people don't want to live with a threat upon their heads. Sometimes leaders don't want people to panic. As a result everyone buries his head in the sand like an ostrich.

 

 

The writers could've easily had the Council believe in the Reapers after ME1. They had a Reaper corpse. It was entirely plausible. And thats what they should've done. We already had to deal with a disbelieving Council in the first game, WHY drag it on for until the start of the third game? And even if they could still be skeptical, what the hell kind of governments would respond to a Geth attack by not increasing any military spending?

[Iakus]

Conventional victory opens up a whopper of a plot hole: why didn't another advanced civilization, our of billions of years of cycles, do it sooner? The assumption that all this hasn't happened before in a similar fashion during that span is preposterous.
 

Because no other cycle had advance warned?  Managed to destroy the vanguard before the dark space relay could be opened?

 

 

 

Dial down the drama, will you?

No, they can't. At the bare minimum, ME2 destroyed any semblance of that possibility.

 

In part, you're right.  ME2 amply demonstrated that the time Shepard bought the galaxy was utterly wasted.  And that the Reapers were (lol) only 2-3 years out from the galaxy.

 

But ME3 dialed it up to eleven.  You want to talk drama, look at ME3.

[ImaginaryMatter]

First, the citadel concil didn't believe in the Reapers, they thought Sovereign was nothing but a geth dreadnought. They didn't want to go to war, Saren was THE bad boy, he died, we won, everyone is happy, curtains. It may sound dumb but this is still plausible. Sometimes, people don't want to live with a threat upon their heads. Sometimes leaders don't want people to panic. As a result everyone buries his head in the sand like an ostrich.

 

The problem with that is that I don't think there is any precedent for a people being this willfully ignorant to such a realized, non abstract threat. Even if the Council discounted the idea of a Reaper invasion, the Geth would still be a factor -- the vilified AI species that had already nearly wiped out one species and managed to attack the heart of galactic government. The heads of the various home worlds would probably be outraged that the Council avoided doing anything about such a threat, worried that the Geth might come for them next (remember the Geth situation behind the Perseus Veil in unknown, also if they concluded that Sovereign was a Geth construct wouldn't they be worried that the Geth could build more?). Also, considering how the Council reacted to the last couple of groups who messed with them (genocide, sterility, social and political exile; none of which got as far as the Geth and Sovereign did), doing almost nothing with the Geth seems even more out of character.

 

Most importantly the Council is uninteresting. With ME2 they become cartoons in a story struggling to be taken seriously by having complex struggles. It transform the fight against the Reapers from a tale of overcoming to one of Shepard collectively baby sitting the galaxy. There could have been better ways to handle this. Maybe, the Council could be so preoccupied with the Geth, fueled by centuries of resentment against the Geth AI that they failed to see the bigger picture; at least have some human flaw at the center of it, rather than plot mandated stupidity.

[Vazgen]

The problem with that is that I don't think there is any precedent for a people being this willfully ignorant to such a realized, non abstract threat. Even if the Council discounted the idea of a Reaper invasion, the Geth would still be a factor -- the vilified AI species that had already nearly wiped out one species and managed to attack the heart of galactic government. The heads of the various home worlds would probably be outraged that the Council avoided doing anything about such a threat, worried that the Geth might come for them next (remember the Geth situation behind the Perseus Veil in unknown, also if they concluded that Sovereign was a Geth construct wouldn't they be worried that the Geth could build more?). Also, considering how the Council reacted to the last couple of groups who messed with them (genocide, sterility, social and political exile; none of which got as far as the Geth and Sovereign did), doing almost nothing with the Geth seems even more out of character.

 

Most importantly the Council is uninteresting. With ME2 they become cartoons in a story struggling to be taken seriously by having complex struggles. It transform the fight against the Reapers from a tale of overcoming to one of Shepard collectively baby sitting the galaxy. There could have been better ways to handle this. Maybe, the Council could be so preoccupied with the Geth, fueled by centuries of resentment against the Geth AI that they failed to see the bigger picture; at least have some human flaw at the center of it, rather than plot mandated stupidity.

There were actually doing something about the geth. Opening text of ME2.

"Now, the human-led Council attempts to quell rumors of the Reapers' return. Hoping to ease public concern, they've sent Commander Shepard and the starship Normandy to wipe out all remaining geth resistance..." or

"To quell the rumors, the Council has sent Commander Shepard and the Normandy to wipe out the last pockets of geth resistance."

Anderson also says that the Alliance fought the geth while Shepard was dead

[SporkFu]

Maybe it is just me but somehow I thought the travel from dark space to the Milky Way would have an affect on the Reapers and I definitly thought that the explosion from Arrival would have some kind of major affect on them that would be explained in ME3 ( I mean they were RIGHT at the heels when the relay went nova). But...then again...I was a silly silly goose for thinking that.

The reapers were approximately six months of FTL travel away from the alpha relay, which itself is one end of a relay connection. It's not like the relay is a door they just opened up and stepped through. Well... It kinda is, but not literally.

[ImaginaryMatter]

There were actually doing something about the geth. Opening text of ME2.

"Now, the human-led Council attempts to quell rumors of the Reapers' return. Hoping to ease public concern, they've sent Commander Shepard and the starship Normandy to wipe out all remaining geth resistance..." or

"To quell the rumors, the Council has sent Commander Shepard and the Normandy to wipe out the last pockets of geth resistance."

Anderson also says that the Alliance fought the geth while Shepard was dead

 

It's why I said almost nothing. Dealing with the 'last pockets of Geth resistance' seems a little silly when there is an entire empire of them possibly lurking behind the Perseus Veil. When they faced the Rachni they didn't just wipe out the remainders in Council space, they went all the way to their home world and wiped them out, stem and root.

[FlyingSquirrel]

Throw in a bunch of stuff about thanix cannons, unity, 2000 year delay, blah, blah, blah that would be unique to this cycle. This stuff already exists in the story (the Reapers were held up by guerrilla tactics and smuggling nuclear weapons onto their ships? And Javik says the Protheans were technology wise a match for the Reapers? The Reapers fascination with Shepard). Contrived? Sure. But the writers are going to hit that rock no matter where they go. And given the state of the Crucible lore, I would say there are worse things than conventional victory on that front.

 

There have literally been thousands of harvests, though - nobody in any previous cycles ever managed to build a thanix cannon, or unify multiple species to fight the Reapers, etc.?

[FlyingSquirrel]

The problem with that is that I don't think there is any precedent for a people being this willfully ignorant to such a realized, non abstract threat. Even if the Council discounted the idea of a Reaper invasion, the Geth would still be a factor -- the vilified AI species that had already nearly wiped out one species and managed to attack the heart of galactic government. The heads of the various home worlds would probably be outraged that the Council avoided doing anything about such a threat, worried that the Geth might come for them next (remember the Geth situation behind the Perseus Veil in unknown, also if they concluded that Sovereign was a Geth construct wouldn't they be worried that the Geth could build more?). Also, considering how the Council reacted to the last couple of groups who messed with them (genocide, sterility, social and political exile; none of which got as far as the Geth and Sovereign did), doing almost nothing with the Geth seems even more out of character.

Well, it's not like they did nothing at all about it - they sent the Normandy out to fight the holdouts, and Anderson says in ME2 that there are still some operations in progress along those lines. Plus, they already lost a lot of ships fighting Sovereign. They probably figured they were doing everything they realistically could and that the geth had taken enough losses that they couldn't mount another full-scale attack either. And they were probably right if the geth alone were the real threat - the heretics are mostly launching scattered, isolated attacks and trying to rewrite the orthodox geth in ME2, but they don't seem to be venturing into the Council species' territory much. 

[ImaginaryMatter]

Well, it's not like they did nothing at all about it - they sent the Normandy out to fight the holdouts, and Anderson says in ME2 that there are still some operations in progress along those lines. Plus, they already lost a lot of ships fighting Sovereign. They probably figured they were doing everything they realistically could and that the geth had taken enough losses that they couldn't mount another full-scale attack either. And they were probably right if the geth alone were the real threat - the heretics are mostly launching scattered, isolated attacks and trying to rewrite the orthodox geth in ME2, but they don't seem to be venturing into the Council species' territory much. 

 

They lost a fraction of the fleet. The bulk of the Citadel Defense Fleet wasn't actually at the Citadel, it was heavily patrolling all known Relays to and from Council Space. Plus, they had the addition of the Alliance Fleets.

 

The Council was afraid of the Geth. They were the AI boogiemen that lurked on the edges of space. After the Morning War the Council maintained massive fleets stationed outside the Perseus Veil, which were only recalled after decades of isolation from the Geth. Suddenly, the Geth launch the deepest strike against Citadel Space in it's entire history and the Council is satisfied with simply clearing out pockets of resistance that they can find outside of the Veil? In history has any country simply contended with clearing out pockets of remaining troops within their borders, without doing anything else militarily or diplomatically? It's almost like they forgot about the Geth's other massive holdings.

[Vit246]

There have literally been thousands of harvests, though - nobody in any previous cycles ever managed to build a thanix cannon, or unify multiple species to fight the Reapers, etc.?

Nobody thought to build a Thanix cannon because its Reaper tech and because they already have mass accelerator cannons which are good enough for everything else not-Reaper. And unifying the species requires an intact mass relay network, which the Reapers destroy any chance of having by surprise attack zerg rushing the Citadel Station and controlling and shutting down the network in the first phase of the cycle. Aim for the jugular. Divide and conquer. And preparing for the Reapers requires a galactic awareness that there is a army of space robot Cthulhus in dark space, which the Reapers are usually careful to hide their existence.

And by the time anybody is trying to unify and prepare and fight, ITS TOO LATE.

[von uber]

Given the time it takes for them to cruise from Dark Space as shown in ME2, they have no need for the Citadel trap (rendering ME1 pointless) as they can win anyway.

 

They way the Reapers were written in ME3 implied they were so powerful and overwhelming in numbers that there was no need for the Citadel trap - this is shown by them not even bothering to take it until we have to go back to Earth for reasons. Again ME1 is rendered pointless, and the Reapers are shown to have overwhelming strength.

 

However, given the desperation shown by Sovereign in ME1 it is implied that they need the Citadel trap to be successful - otherwise Sovereign would have just waited for them to arrive once it stopped working. If this is the case, then it implies the Reapers are vulnerable without the trap, and this invalidates what is shown in ME3.

 

The Collectors in ME2 pose no threat whatsoever to the galaxy and thus the main plot of ME2 is pointless.

 

So really, it's a bit of an inconsistent, retconned mess. The Reapers are as powerful as the plot requires at any one time, however the lack of consistency in both their power, method of arrival and numbers is what causes the problems.

[Vazgen]

Given the time it takes for them to cruise from Dark Space as shown in ME2, they have no need for the Citadel trap (rendering ME1 pointless) as they can win anyway.

 

They way the Reapers were written in ME3 implied they were so powerful and overwhelming in numbers that there was no need for the Citadel trap - this is shown by them not even bothering to take it until we have to go back to Earth for reasons. Again ME1 is rendered pointless, and the Reapers are shown to have overwhelming strength.

 

However, given the desperation shown by Sovereign in ME1 it is implied that they need the Citadel trap to be successful - otherwise Sovereign would have just waited for them to arrive once it stopped working. If this is the case, then it implies the Reapers are vulnerable without the trap, and this invalidates what is shown in ME3.

 

The Collectors in ME2 pose no threat whatsoever to the galaxy and thus the main plot of ME2 is pointless.

 

So really, it's a bit of an inconsistent, retconned mess. The Reapers are as powerful as the plot requires at any one time, however the lack of consistency in both their power, method of arrival and numbers is what causes the problems.

Have you considered that maybe the Reapers are extremely powerful just in comparison to the technology level of this cycle? The last enemy they faced were the Protheans who put a hell of a fight and might've won if the Citadel wasn't taken in the first place. Now the next cycle comes and Citadel trap doesn't work. So the Sovereign goes to activate it, knowing that it might cost them victory (based on the most recent experience). He gets destroyed. Then ME3 come and the Reapers arrive, finding civilizations with technology level much lower than the one of the Protheans. They pose no real threat to the Reaper plans and they just proceed straight to harvesting, not even bothering to cease control of the Citadel until learning of the joined galactic fleet about to attack them.

[von uber]

If that's the case then they are vulnerable to a conventional victory. Which we are directly told they are not.

[Vazgen]

If that's the case then they are vulnerable to a conventional victory. Which we are directly told they are not.

They are not if we are the ones fighting them. Those words don't come from Javik, they come... don't even remember from whom

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

They're just machines. They don't care. They receive their marching orders from the kid. "I control the reapers. They are my solution." They are not Cthulu. They are simply highly advanced machines and there are a lot of them.

 

Leviathans created the "Intelligence" to make sure that the organics didn't create synthetics that would destroy themselves and gave it the directive to preserve organic life. The intelligence rebelled against the Leviathans because "the created always rebel against their creators." So the Leviathans created synthetics to create synthetics that killed organics before they created synthetics that killed themselves.

 

Shepard needed the line: "That's because you're a big stupid cuttlefish!"

[Iakus]

They are not if we are the ones fighting them. Those words don't come from Javik, they come... don't even remember from whom

Bioware

[Vazgen]

Bioware

Uhm, clarify?

[Iakus]

Uhm, clarify?

They can't be defeated conventioanlly because Bioware said so.  their technological and numerical edge is purely becuse "Bioware said so"

 

they could have been beaten conventioanlly if Bioware wanted.  The Reapers are not invincible or innumerable, unless the writers choose them to be so.

 

Call it "The Kai Leng Effect"

[Vazgen]

They can't be defeated conventioanlly because Bioware said so.  their technological and numerical edge is purely becuse "Bioware said so"

 

they could have been beaten conventioanlly if Bioware wanted.  The Reapers are not invincible or innumerable, unless the writers choose them to be so.

And that that contradicts my point how? To reiterate: Reapers can't be beaten conventionally in the current cycle. Doesn't mean they can't be beaten conventionally in all cycles.

[Iakus]

And that that contradicts my point how? To reiterate: Reapers can't be beaten conventionally in the current cycle. Doesn't mean they can't be beaten conventionally in all cycles.

The current cycle had what no other cycle that we're aware of had:  Advance warning.  Time to come up with new weapons and tactics, a dead Reaper to study and find weaknesses to .

 

But it all got urinated away. Politician's denying the truth.  The Reapers only being a couple of years away.  Shepard wasting time on bug-people.  And oh, yeah, there's now hundreds of thousands of Reapers, just because.

 

 So now it all comes down to the galaxy's biggest magic wand, Shepard burning, and a ghost-child telling us how it's gonna be. 

[Vazgen]

The current cycle had what no other cycle that we're aware of had:  Advance warning.  Time to come up with new weapons and tactics, a dead Reaper to study and find weaknesses to .

 

But it all got urinated away. Politician's denying the truth.  The Reapers only being a couple of years away.  Shepard wasting time on bug-people.  And oh, yeah, there's now hundreds of thousands of Reapers, just because.

 

 So now it all comes down to the galaxy's biggest magic wand, Shepard burning, and a ghost-child telling us how it's gonna be. 

Why bring that up at all? It is obvious starting from ME1 that all races of the current cycle can't even come close to Prothean technological level. Wasting time, politicians etc. has nothing to do with that. And two years won't close that gap. That's why no one in the current cycle can stand a chance against the Reapers, not because they were wasting time for two years. They might've fared better if prepared properly but they would've still be bested by far superior Reaper technology.

 

"Our numbers will darken the sky of every world". Ring a bell?

[SporkFu]

Despite being technologically superior to us, the protheans failed too. Their best plan -- to disrupt the keeper signal -- did nothing more than slow the reapers down.