137 réponses à ce sujet

[Iakus]

Why bring that up at all? It is obvious starting from ME1 that all races of the current cycle can't even come close to Prothean technological level. Wasting time, politicians etc. has nothing to do with that. And two years won't close that gap. That's why no one in the current cycle can stand a chance against the Reapers, not because they were wasting time for two years. They might've fared better if prepared properly but they would've still be bested by far superior Reaper technology.

 

"Our numbers will darken the sky of every world". Ring a bell?

I bring it up because it's DM Fiat keeping the Reapers from being defeated.

 

You can end ME1 with Udina and the Council believing Shepard.  there's no reason why they couldn't be preparing aside from "Mass Efect 2"

 

"Shepards right, we're at war with an enemy unlike the galaxy has ever known, a war for the very survival of the life as we know it, humanity will do it's part, we will not back down, we will not surrender, we will lead you into battle aginst the Reapers , and drive them back into dark space!"

 

Councilor Donnel Udina

 

Two years also isn't the point.  The problem is if they're so close to the galaxy, there's no reason to wait for Sovereign.  The whole ME1 setup was pointless.

Especially given the stupidly-high numbers of Reapers.  There's no reason ME3 should have happened at all besides the Reapers were terminally stupid.

[Vazgen]

Despite being technologically superior to us, the protheans failed too. Their best plan -- to disrupt the keeper signal -- did nothing more than slow the reapers down. 

Because the Citadel trap worked. Disrupting the keeper signal was accomplished only after the invasion.

[Vazgen]

I bring it up because it's DM Fiat keeping the Reapers from being defeated.

 

You can end ME1 with Udina and the Council believing Shepard.  there's no reason why they couldn't be preparing aside from "Mass Efect 2"

 

"Shepards right, we're at war with an enemy unlike the galaxy has ever known, a war for the very survival of the life as we know it, humanity will do it's part, we will not back down, we will not surrender, we will lead you into battle aginst the Reapers , and drive them back into dark space!"

 

Councilor Donnel Udina

 

Two years also isn't the point.  The problem is if they're so close to the galaxy, there's no reason to wait for Sovereign.  The whole ME1 setup was pointless.

Especially given the stupidly-high numbers of Reapers.  There's no reason ME3 should have happened at all besides the Reapers were terminally stupid.

I sometimes think that you don't even try to understand what I'm trying to say.

Sovereign's plan worked for the previous cycles. Why do it differently now? When it doesn't work, they act. 

With their stupidly high numbers they fought Protheans for at least two generations. That's not really a hopeless scenario.

 

Protheans could've won if not for the Citadel trap. Also, their plan to put people in stasis to awake after the Reapers leave speaks of the confidence they had that they could defeat the Reapers afterwards. 

 

We know how council choices played out in ME2. And that has nothing to do with what we're discussing. I already addressed the lack of preparation in this part:

They might've fared better if prepared properly but they would've still be bested by far superior Reaper technology.

[NoRush20]

In the ME3 Codex, it specifically states that weaknesses have been found in the Reapers, implying that they could be defeated. However, the series repeatedly gives the impression that the Protheans were far more advanced than the current cycle. Admiral Hackett is the one who says "we have no hope of beating the Reapers conventionally". And yes, in the both the battle with Sovereign at the Citadel and the battle above Earth at the end of ME3, it is shown that Reapers can be destroyed in combat - but it basically takes an entire fleet to destroy a Reaper. 

 

To those who complain about it making no sense that the Reapers take "only a few years" to go from Dark Space to the Milky Way, I think it's pretty clear that Sovereign had alerted the Reapers about the disabling of the Keeper's signal thousands of years before (hence the souring of the notes among the Rahcni, the implementation of the Genophage, and other disagreeable events that likely had indoctrinated minds behind them), and the Reapers had been travelling that entire time. The events of the Mass Effect games just happen at the tail-end of the Reaper's journey from dark space. They likely were carrying a Mass Relay with them (just as they carry the Citadel to Earth in ME3) that was connected to the Citadel, and the code that was disabled was the code that enables that Relay connection. It's not like they were going to sit around for thousands of years, camped around a Mass Relay, waiting for Sovereign to pull off a miracle. 

 

Once the Reapers arrived, they realized the main threat was Shepard, not the Citadel or its disbelieving and unprepared Council - so their first target was Earth, to demoralize and/or kill Shepard from the get-go. And their plan almost worked (hence the initial laser that almost killed Shepard at the very beginning of ME3).

[Iakus]

I sometimes think that you don't even try to understand what I'm trying to say.

Sovereign's plan worked for the previous cycles. Why do it differently now? When it doesn't work, they act. 

With their stupidly high numbers they fought Protheans for at least two generations. That's not really a hopeless scenario.

 

That's just it, their plan in ME1 didn't rely on stupidly high numbers or even super-advanced technology.  It was a sneak attack, shut down the relays, and decapitate the government.  Divide and conquer. 

 

But now what we've been shown in ME2 and ME3 is they never needed this overly sneaky plan.  they can swoop on it, and CANNOT BE DEFEATED CONVENTIONALLY!!!

 

So, what was the point?  Stupidly high numbers, stupidly high tech.  They could have steamrolled teh galaxy at any time.  ME1 showed us a powerful, but not invincible enemy, who relied on a fractured galaxy to win its wars.  ME3 set up an enemy so powerful they only way we could win was if the Reapers let us win.

[Vazgen]

That's just it, their plan in ME1 didn't rely on stupidly high numbers or even super-advanced technology.  It was a sneak attack, shut down the relays, and decapitate the government.  Divide and conquer. 

 

But now what we've been shown in ME2 and ME3 is they never needed this overly sneaky plan.  they can swoop on it, and CANNOT BE DEFEATED CONVENTIONALLY!!!

 

So, what was the point?  Stupidly high numbers, stupidly high tech.  They could have steamrolled teh galaxy at any time.  ME1 showed us a powerful, but not invincible enemy, who relied on a fractured galaxy to win its wars.  ME3 set up an enemy so powerful they only way we could win was if the Reapers let us win.

In this cycle they never needed it, yeah. In the previous cycle not doing that might've resulted in their loss. 

[NoRush20]

That's just it, their plan in ME1 didn't rely on stupidly high numbers or even super-advanced technology.  It was a sneak attack, shut down the relays, and decapitate the government.  Divide and conquer. 

 

But now what we've been shown in ME2 and ME3 is they never needed this overly sneaky plan.  they can swoop on it, and CANNOT BE DEFEATED CONVENTIONALLY!!!

 

So, what was the point?  Stupidly high numbers, stupidly high tech.  They could have steamrolled teh galaxy at any time.  ME1 showed us a powerful, but not invincible enemy, who relied on a fractured galaxy to win its wars.  ME3 set up an enemy so powerful they only way we could win was if the Reapers let us win.

But several Reapers were killed off in ME3, and one at the beginning of ME1, and a future Reaper at the start of ME2. Had the Citadel surprise-attack worked, no Reapers would have died. If there's only one Reaper created during each harvest, then the Reapers can't keep up what happened in ME3 forever. They have to have a flawless victory each time. 

 

And the Reapers can be defeated conventionally. Don't get why you keep quoting that. It's just that this cycle lacked the technological means to do so, which is why Hackett always said that.

[SporkFu]

Because the Citadel trap worked. Disrupting the keeper signal was accomplished only after the invasion.

shep: How did your people wage war against the reapers?

Javik: Attrition. We fought them system by system, planet by planet, city by city. Entire worlds were sacrificed just to slow the reapers down. Time they spent harvesting a population was time we could regroup. 

shep: That must have cost you in the long run. 

Javik: Yes. our own people would be indoctrinated, converted, then turned against us. But there was no choice. Mercy is not a weapon; it is a weakness. 

 

Liara tells shep at one point that she is only 109, and that the harvest will still take a hundred years if the crucible plan fails, and that she could live to see the end of the cycle. During that hundred years (or more) our cycle would continue to fight, maybe even have some victories and slow the reapers down for awhile, but it wouldn't matter. The above conversation with Javik seems, to me, to describe this very situation. That's what conventional warfare against an enemy like the reapers gets you. They don't care for your strategies or tactics, they will beat you anyway. 

[Vazgen]

 

shep: How did your people wage war against the reapers?

Javik: Attrition. We fought them system by system, planet by planet, city by city. Entire worlds were sacrificed just to slow the reapers down. Time they spent harvesting a population was time we could regroup. 

shep: That must have cost you in the long run. 

Javik: Yes. our own people would be indoctrinated, converted, then turned against us. But there was no choice. Mercy is not a weapon; it is a weakness. 

 

Liara tells shep at one point that she is only 109, and that the harvest will still take a hundred years if the crucible plan fails, and that she could live to see the end of the cycle. During that hundred years (or more) our cycle would continue to fight, maybe even have some victories and slow the reapers down for awhile, but it wouldn't matter. The above conversation with Javik seems, to me, to describe this very situation. That's what conventional warfare against an enemy like the reapers gets you. They don't care for your strategies or tactics, they will beat you anyway. 

That is true for the Protheans who had the technology to try different options (also comes with their society structure). Tried Crucible, discovered Citadel is needed, abandoned, disrupted keeper signal and put people in stasis for them to emerge after the Reapers are gone, prepared their successors - the asari by putting a beacon on their homeworld and genetically modifying them to give access to biotics etc. 

Current cycle doesn't have that kind of advanced stasis technology, can't even comprehend how mass relays work, let alone build one (the relay monument), doesn't have shared knowledge of all races, each race keeps its knowledge to themselves until it's too late (Thessia beacon). The only hope is the Crucible which is built using detailed step-by-step instruction by the best minds in the galaxy. The presence of different races makes indoctrination even more potent for it is difficult to figure out if an alien is acting strange. If the Crucible fails, the harvest will be much faster than the one of the Protheans.

 

On a non-related note, have you seen the Edge of Tomorrow? The combined attack of all fleets is quite reminiscent of that movie for me.

[AlanC9]

However, given the desperation shown by Sovereign in ME1 it is implied that they need the Citadel trap to be successful - otherwise Sovereign would have just waited for them to arrive once it stopped working. If this is the case, then it implies the Reapers are vulnerable without the trap, and this invalidates what is shown in ME3.

You sure that was desperation? All I actually saw was Sovereign trying to bring off their standard decapitation strike. It's a worthwhile risk to run rather than consent to fighting the war we see in ME3. All the Reapers are risking is one Reaper, and I doubt they thought the risk was all that substantial.

[von uber]

You sure that was desperation? All I actually saw was Sovereign trying to bring off their standard decapitation strike. It's a worthwhile risk to run rather than consent to fighting the war we see in ME3. All the Reapers are risking is one Reaper, and I doubt they thought the risk was all that substantial.

Possibly, my impression of it though is a desperate charge to the citadel to gain control, but that's just the way I see it.

Largely due to the cinematics it has to be said.

[AlanC9]

Sure. It's not an unreasonable reading of the scenes, or the game. But it's not really established as any sort of fact. I suppose it still counts as a retcon, though.

[Vit246]

It WAS desperation because the cycle was NOT going as planned. In every previous cycle Sovereign usually sends the signals to the Keepers to activate the Citadel relay for the Reapers in dark space. And this time in ME1 it didn't work because the Protheans reprogrammed the Keepers to ignore the Reapers. Which is why Sovereign tried to zerg rush his way to the Citadel and "assume direct control" over the Citadel relay.