75 réponses à ce sujet

[Groove Widdit]

From the book it seems you are trading hit for damage when you use Power Attack. Doesn't this amount to the same overall damage, if you are hitting less frequently? Improved Power Attack does more damage, but is more "reckless" which I translate as it hits even less frequently. Power Attack would be great for my barbarian, but I don't want to waste a feat if it doesn't do more damage than a regular series of attacks. I need a stopper.

[Jezla]

It's the prerequisite for Cleave (and then Great Cleave), which I regard as a must for melee characters.

 

By itself, it's best used against strong enemies that are relatively easy to hit.

[Arkalezth]

It depends on how and against who you use it. If you're not using a two-handed weapon, you only get 3/6 (PA/IPA) damage. This may be useful if you have a high AB and/or enemies have a low AC and can hit them easily enough, but the benefits aren't spectacular. If you dual wield, it's generally a bad idea, because PA only works with medium or big weapons, and dual wielding those imposes a penalty on top of the normal one. Adding yet another one from PA will drop your AB to the subsoil.

Now, if you use a two-handed weapon (other than rapier, medium ones work for this too, as long as you don't have anything in your off-hand), you'll get double damage (6/12), which makes those feat(s) more interesting. And if you happen to be a frenzied berserker with Enhanced or Supreme PA, it'll add up to +24 damage to every hit, not to mention that you'll have Supreme Cleave on top.

So, in short, if you're a FB, you should keep (I)PA active all the time as long as you don't need the extra AB, and use a 2-handed weapon as long as you don't need the extra AC from a shield. If you're not a FB but 2-hand a weapon often, it can still be worth it. If you plan on using a shield the whole time, I probably wouldn't bother, though it may be a decent option if you can spare the feats or as a way to get Cleave (you only need the basic PA for this). If you dual wield, as a general rule, avoid PA.

[Groove Widdit]

Thank you both. I do actually double-thrash (two katanas). I'll get it if you need it for cleave. Is there a way to find out the enemy's AC, or do you just look at your to-hit numbers in combat?

[Arkalezth]

You can often make an educated guess, but if you wanna know the exact numbers, yes, you'll have to look at the combat log and see how high a roll you need to hit.

There's a console command ("enablecombatdebugging 1") that shows combat numbers with more detail. I think you can check enemies' AC that way, but your combat log may be insanely long then.

[Snowdog65]

It depends ...

 

Agree with this. The only time I ever used PA was on a Greatsword wielding Frenzied Berzerker. Even then I never bothered taking IPA, which I consider a waste of a feat. I can't really think when I would want -6 to hit.

 

If you are dual Wielding Katanas I would say it is definitely off the table. You are already at -4 to hit, Another -3 puts you at -7.

[Arkalezth]

I can't really think when I would want -6 to hit.

A lot of enemies are easy to hit, even with IPA, providing that you have a decent level and AB. You do need some levels, though. IPA can be taken as early as level 6, but you generally need a few more levels in order to make it worthwhile (plus the earliest a FB can get EPA is at level 11). Buffs from companions can help a lot with this too.

As aforementioned, dual katanas are already a bad idea mechanically. Stay away from PA in this particular case. I don't think I'd even bother with Cleave, as you'll probably have a lot of attacks per round anyway, and the more attacks per round, the less impact Cleave has.

[Snowdog65]

A lot of enemies are easy to hit, even with IPA, providing that you have a decent level and AB.

 

A lot of enemies where you need the damage? You are going to be a strong two handed fighter doing lots of damage+PA already.  IMO IPA is too situational to waste a feat on.  If you are in a tough fight, chances are you need the AB to hit more often. 

[Arkalezth]

A lot of enemies where you need the damage?

"Need", no, but you don't "need" anything. Who says that an enemy can't have high HP but low AC? That's actually a very common situation. I've played many FBs and yes, IPA is definitely useful, and usually my primary option. I don't turn IPA on when I need more damage; I just turn it off when I need more AB.

There isn't a universally correct answer because not every module features the same enemies, and not every power-attacking character has the same build or level.

BTW, I forgot to mention Favoured Power Attack. If you're a ranger (not to mention a ranger/FB) and most enemies in a module are of the same type, you can do a lot of damage to them with that feat.

[Naeryna]

"Need", no, but you don't "need" anything. Who says that an enemy can't have high HP but low AC? That's actually a very common situation. I've played many FBs and yes, IPA is definitely useful, and usually my primary option. I don't turn IPA on when I need more damage; I just turn it off when I need more AB.

There isn't a universally correct answer because not every module features the same enemies, and not every power-attacking character has the same build or level.

 

 

Is IPA useful in Storm of Zehir?

 

 

I like this kind of discussions.

[Arkalezth]

I haven't played SOZ for years, but yes, it should be useful. Maybe not the whole time because I recall some areas being hard if you go explore them ASAP, but in general, I'd follow the guidelines from in my first post.

If you have a heavy hitter who 2-hands a weapon often and/or is a FB, IPA is generally a good feat to take (and if you already have basic PA, it's just a feat, so it's not as if it was a huge investment), providing that your AB is not unusually low for whatever reason and you don't have companions that can buff you. And, if at some point you need more AB, well, turn it off.

[Snowdog65]

.. usually my primary option. I don't turn IPA on when I need more damage; I just turn it off when I need more AB.

I just find it strange the everyone gets down on dual wielding larger weapons because of the -4 penalty to hit, and you are advocating walking around with IPA all the time with a -6 penalty to hit.

[Groove Widdit]

Mathmatically, dual-wielding (I think) gives you more damage. Plus it's just cool to sport two Sumarai swords! I think I'm going to stay away from PA and use the feats for the two-handed modifiers.

[Arkalezth]

I'd probably advocate dual large weapons if that gave you up to +24 damage.

Like I said, I've played a lot of power-attackers. FB is one of my favourite classes, I'm talking from experience, and it works for me. Feel free to play differently.

Mathmatically, dual-wielding (I think) gives you more damage.

Not necessarily, it depends on weapon enchantments, buffs, etc. In the OC/MOTB, with those craftable +1894d6 weapons, dual wielding does better damage. In low magic environments, it may be the other way around.

[ShinsFortress]

PA's usefulness in and of itself is indeed debatable.  However, the Cleave family of Feats is a must for any melee character.  So since PA is a requisite, it too is a must.

 

The only time I ever found PA or IPA of any use was against groups of numerous but individually weak melee opponents (Kobolds, Goblins, etc.).  The attack penalty of PA offset by the low defense of the individual opponents, and the improved damage of PA increasing the possibility of Cleave kicking in to enable a follow-up auto attack.  Next best thing to a short range fireball.  And very very reusable....

 

Short answer: it is not a wasted feat and it's direct use is optional.

[Arkalezth]

the Cleave family of Feats is a must for any melee character.

No, it's not. Cleave is useful early on when you have one or few attacks per round and the attack rolls are kinda random (and especially if solo). As you get levels, extra attacks and party members who also attack, its usefulness diminishes. I'm not saying it's useless, but depending on the level we're talking about, it may not be too relevant.

Great Cleave is meh. Except for very weak ones, most enemies aren't normally killed with a single blow. It may trigger here and there when several enemies are injured, but there's usually a better feat to take, IMO. Unless your character is gonna be level 4 or so for most of his life; then it may be a good feat. Otherwise, I usually only bother with it if I happen to be playing a FB. Which leads us to Supreme Cleave, which is... well, supreme.

At any rate, you're not gonna end up with a gimp just because you took a feat or two that are not spectacularly useful 100% of the time.

[Snowdog65]

I'd probably advocate dual large weapons if that gave you up to +24 damage.

Like I said, I've played a lot of power-attackers. FB is one of my favourite classes, I'm talking from experience, and it works for me. Feel free to play differently.

Not necessarily, it depends on weapon enchantments, buffs, etc. In the OC/MOTB, with those craftable +1894d6 weapons, dual wielding does better damage. In low magic environments, it may be the other way around.

 

 

So perhaps PA is really only useful on FBs. My only  complete play through of NWN OC/MOTB was a FB, so I do see the use for PA for a FB, but I still didn't bother with IPA and it's -6 to hit. I never encountered anything that was that easy to hit that lasted more than a couple of rounds.

 

Yes, the OC/MOTB has such ridiculous crafting that Two Weapon fighting likely does more damage overall. Characters are almost irrelevant, and crafting is the real damage dealer.    Not really the kind of balance I like, but it is, what it is.

 

I am playing OC again right now (first time in years) with Dual Wielding Strength Ranger, already doing absurd damage with only one crafted weapon (and one found), waiting for 15th level to craft the second, which will ramp damage again.

 

Oh and I like cleave even on my dual wielder. The amount of cleave hits I see flying when I wade into a crowd almost makes me think there is something broken and it helps more automatically engaging the next foe in a crowd.

 

But in the end in the OC/MOTB, your character is nearly irrelevant compared to crafting. So yeah, you can do whatever you want.

[Arkalezth]

PA can be useful on other classes (warrior classes aside, clerics and the like can get ridiculously high ABs, so you may as well use the PA line for some more damage), but particularly on FBs, for obvious reasons.

And Cleave always has -some- use, but the difference between 1 and 2 attacks is more noticeable than the difference between 7 and 8 (which your character will probably have by the end of the OC, not counting Haste), so I wouldn't bother in the latter case.

Anyway, I'm speaking in circles.

[Snowdog65]

We aren't talking about 1 and 2  against 7 and 8.

 

It would be between:

1 and 2 (single weapon)  vs  2 and 3 (dual weapons) at early levels

4 and 5 (single weapon)  vs  7 and 8 (dual weapons)  near OC end levels.

 

Cleave make a lot more difference at low level for everyone and becomes more negligible for everyone at high level.

 

In NWN 1 almost anytime I started a first level module I would play human and my starting feats would always be PA/Cleave.  Cleave at first level is where it is absolutely the most effective. It almost doubled your firepower in that case.

 

As far as the PA, I am not a fan unless it is on a FB, though I don't play clerics. Even then I suspect by the time clerics can buff their AB, they can buff there damage way more than +3 from PA.

 

IPA I would need to have some kind of decent damage calculator to weigh the effects of the -6 AB against the additional damage.  Instinctively, I just don't like losing that much AB. Your struggle enough at early levels to get enough AB to hit most of the time, I don't want to throw that away on the hopes of doing more damage.

 

Its a case of hitting more often with less damage, or less often with more damage. I prefer the former. I hate missing.

 

It is kind of how a view criticals. I would much rather do 2X criticals and have them occur more regularly, than 3x criticals more infrequently

 

In the end they are calculated to do similar damage, but I prefer the route of more steady/reliable, than less often bigger shots.

[Arkalezth]

I am aware that you don't start with 8 attacks right of the bat, thank you. I just said that, the fewer attacks per round, the bigger the impact of Cleave, and vice versa... which is basically what you said as well. And getting to the point where Cleave is negligible is faster for some character types, which may make the investment not worth it for them. By all means, feel free to disagree, but that's my opinion based on my personal experience over the years, and that's how it's going to stay. Same for PA.

With that, I think I'll see myself out of this discussion unless something new comes up, because I don't feel like repeating the same thing over and over forever, especially when it's been already discussed a million times before.

[Thorsson64]

Mathmatically, dual-wielding (I think) gives you more damage. Plus it's just cool to sport two Sumarai swords! I think I'm going to stay away from PA and use the feats for the two-handed modifiers.

 

Mathematically it depends very much on the weapon enchantments. Basically the higher the magic level the more important the number of attacks you have - so a dual wielding Monk (a so-called Kaze build) would be the most effective. With lower level magic then inherent character damage, such as Strength, becomes more important.

 

On Cleave, apart from the reduced effectiveness at higher levels, it is also more effective against weak creatures and less effective against stronger. The real question is do you need the Feats for anything and can you spare them? If you are tight for Feats then there may be better options.

[Dann-J]

Great Cleave would be much more desirable if we had access to a bag of rats.

 

I sometimes find myself designing enemies in my modules specifically with Power Attack in mind. A creature with high HP, low AC, and that hits often and hard (or has a debilitating creature weapon) is a prime candidate for PA. It can be the difference between a quick and easy fight, or a long and costly one.

[Groove Widdit]

If I was DMing a P+P dungeon and a player brought in a bag of rats, I would consider it a clever innovation, and actually the right way to play the game in an original, innovative way. It'd be far, far less impressive if the player just heard about it somewhere, but it would still be an example of the player working with the tools at their disposal. Not allowing it would be like not allowing the ancient Chinese to mix carbon, saltpeter and whatever to to make black powder.

[Eguintir Eligard]

That statement regarding two hands gives you d double damage is wrong. It's 1.5 x or so it is in the rules

[Arkalezth]

It's not the same thing. The strength modifier is indeed multiplied by 1.5, but power attack's damage is doubled.