75 réponses à ce sujet

[Dann-J]

Many modules for 20th level characters have 25 AC monsters that are supposed to be some kind of threat?

 

Some monsters seem to be designed with power attack feats in mind.

 

Frost salamanders: 13HD (min), AC of 17, STR 11, CON 12, 78 HP. Sounds crappy, doesn't it? When you factor in their cold auras doing damage every round and their four-armed multi-attacks, a group of them can be surprisingly effective. Power attack and cleave feats prove quite handy against them.

 

The bone ooze also comes to mind. Incredibly low AC, but with slam attacks that drain your stats (1d6 STR, DEX & CON) as well as causing bleeding damage, and near-total spell resistance (only Magic Missile works against it). The more it hits you, the more trouble you're in. If you must kill it in melee combat, then doing so as quickly as possible is advised.

[Snowdog65]

You can use IPA before level 20. I said low AC, challenging or not. And the fact that you don't -need- something in order to win doesn't mean that it can't be useful.

 

If you've played through the OC and haven't seen any examples of enemies with low AC, regardless of the challenge, I doubt I can tell you of others.

 

Bottom line: We both agree that (I)PA is situational, even if we may draw the line at a different point or have different experiences or playstyles, but we basically agree in the basics.

 

Of course I have met low AC enemies, but none of them lived long enough that IPA would have provided any real utility.

 

To me IPA seems like Great Cleave. A feat that has more entertainment value against un-challenging enemies, than a feat that offers utility against challenging ones.  I would only take GC or IPA if I was feat rich after all other combat and even non combat feats.

[Thorsson64]

Some monsters seem to be designed with power attack feats in mind.

 

Frost salamanders: 13HD (min), AC of 17, STR 11, CON 12, 78 HP. Sounds crappy, doesn't it? When you factor in their cold auras doing damage every round and their four-armed multi-attacks, a group of them can be surprisingly effective. Power attack and cleave feats prove quite handy against them.

 

The bone ooze also comes to mind. Incredibly low AC, but with slam attacks that drain your stats (1d6 STR, DEX & CON) as well as causing bleeding damage, and near-total spell resistance (only Magic Missile works against it). The more it hits you, the more trouble you're in. If you must kill it in melee combat, then doing so as quickly as possible is advised.

 

You know that's why this argument is rather pointless. Just take a Cleric and neither of these is a problem. And Clerics have better things to do with their Feats than add Great Cleave...

[Arkalezth]

Well, that's more pointless. "It doesn't matter whether x feat is good or y enemy is dangerous for this class because clerics are stronger anyway."

 

IPA is a decent feat for a cleric, BTW (so is expertise), providing that you can afford it. If all your attacks are gonna hit anyway, you may as well do some more damage or have some more AC.

[Thorsson64]

   

 

But not Great Cleave, eh?

 

But I'll take it back to my earlier point - if IPA is worth having in the setting you're playing, then FB is trebly worth having. Is there a situation where you would want to use IPA for the added damage, but wouldn't want the far bigger addition from taking FB?

[Arkalezth]

In epic levels, probably not. In pre-epic, you -might- prefer the extra spells, though less cleric and some FB works as well.

[Eguintir Eligard]

Wow no wonder new players don't frequent here you can't even get a simple answer without a 300 post nerd war

[Naeryna]

I love this discussions. It's so much interesting.

[Thorsson64]

Wow no wonder new players don't frequent here you can't even get a simple answer without a 300 post nerd war

 

It was 56 posts. And there were issues that needed to be discussed; there is no simple answer - presuming you want accurate information. And that was a 'love in'. 

[Luminus]

I think this is a simple answer:
Power Attack: very useful for any two-handed, STR-based build. Even gish (fighter/mage) builds.
Improved Power Attack: only if you plan on having a ton of attack bonuses and don't fight enemies with crazy high AC.

For me, both were useful: IPA on my Fighter/Frenzerker/WP with a Falchion and PA on a STR-based Gish Sorcerer

[Thorsson64]

The simple, but still correct, answer is it depends on your AB and the AC of what you are fighting. And that is much more likely to turn positive if you have FB.

 

I corrected a Google Doc to show this, although people do do some odd things to it occasionally.

 

I just put in some numbers to illustrate: AB 44/BAB 26/ Str +8*1.5 damage; (Epic) Weapon Spec 6 with a Weapon d8+5 crit multiplier x2 vs AC 50. This does an average 49.5 damage per round. Turn on Power Attack (-3AB/+6 damage) and that falls to 41.79.

 

Now change the AC to 40. Average damage changes to 104.23, and if you PA it is 104.77. That pretty much shows that you need an easy target for normal PA to be worth it - even 2H-ing.

 

But go ahead, turn it on against the boss - be my guest.

[Dann-J]

Power attack is specifically intended for hard-hitting enemies with lots of hit points (or damage reduction) but low AC. It's not designed with well-armoured enemies in mind. It is only "pointless" when used inappropriately.

 

Whenever I create a level 1 strength-based fighter, I always take PA and Cleave at character creation. Cleave comes in handy at low levels even if you never activate PA. Divine Might and Divine Shield also need PA as a prerequisite, so it proves useful for combat-oriented clerics.

 

And there's nothing cooler than seeing a Weapon Master execute a critical-hit Great Cleave with a two-handed weapon!

[Arkalezth]

Look what you've done, Eguintir.

[Snowdog65]

Power attack is specifically intended for hard-hitting enemies with lots of hit points (or damage reduction) but low AC. It's not designed with well-armoured enemies in mind. It is only "pointless" when used inappropriately.

 

PA and IPA are of decreasing utility.

 

In NWN1 I only took PA to qualify for cleave (much more important feat in NWN1) and I only ever activated PA to bash doors faster. Doors are Low AC, and DR, and have limited offense. So of course PA is not pointless. Every time I am attacked by a horde of doors, I turn it on.

 

But for really getting a significant in game benefit,  PA is really only of much use to FBs who are likely to use PA extensively. It is bread and butter for them. For all others, you really have to stretch to make any case for actually using PA.

 

IPA is the feat I don't consider worth actually taking even when building FBs. -6 AB is huge drop and it takes very low armored enemy to show a benefit (Even 30 AC opponent with a 20th level Ranger/FB didn't show a benefit). Yeah you can stretch and make a case for some low AC enemies, but for me it isn't worth trying remember to turn it on to make unarmored enemy fights go a little faster, and wasting a feat for that narrow usage.

[Luminus]

I disagree.
My experience on various servers and modules says that Power Attack is very useful, Improved Power Attack less so.
Of course it's best used with a two-handed weapon.
If your Ranger used two weapons, PA and IPA is crap.

By the way, both become even more useful if you have other buffs or a Bard nearby, for example.
Divine Favor, Inspire Courage, Greater Heroism etc are all nice Attack bonus increasing buffs that make both PA and IPA very viable.

And let's not make assumptions that all who take either of them fight solo against enemies of appropriate CR.
In campaigns or modules, you will very likely have someone to buff you or you can buff yourself, a Bard is very useful for large parties.
In PWs, many times you would be fighting enemies with lower AC (to make it viable to non-warrior classes) or for easy grind and/or loot. In this case, you want to take out enemies asap so you don't take damage, so those first 2-3 hits are very important.

Like I said before, on a server I play, there are epic warlock monsters with crap AC but good DR, HP and are very dangerous so you don't want to drag on with the battle.
So those IPA criticals work wonders to take them out fast before they hit you with touch attacks for 100+ damage.

[Thorsson64]

Yes, yes; just what I said. If they're easy to hit PA works; if they're very easy to hit IPA works. It depends on the environment and how tight you are for Feats in deciding whether it's worth spending 3 Feats to get IPA for a non-FB though.

[Dann-J]

Well what do you know - I recently not only found a *use* for Improved Power Attack, but it was actually a necessity!

 

I was testing a new feature in my module and needed a character that could cast Enlarge Self, so I chose one of the characters that came with the game (a grey dwarf fighter / dwarven defender). Because she was level 19, one of the gnoll encounters that spawned included a shoosuva (large undead with lots of DR). All the other gnolls and hyenas were easily dispatched, but I didn't have the right weapon material to get past the shoosuva's DR. I was hitting it every round, but had almost no chance of ever doing any damage to it (not even on a critical hit, due to it being undead).

 

Then I noticed that the character had IPA. I was no longer hitting every round, but when I did I was doing enough damage to get through the DR. Without IPA I'd would have been swinging away all day - or at least until its ghoul-like claw attack paralysed me and I was toast. Hitting less often but actually doing damage when you do is much better than hitting constantly but doing no damage at all.

[Dann-J]

What about all the stupid feats that give you an extra couple of points on some skill that a magic potion could do when you need it ? They're really pointless ! Or some better bargaining one or throwing dart focus.

 

Those feats will stack with the effects of spells and potions. If you're playing as a fighter then you'll have plenty of feats to 'waste'. If you become a weapon master and specialise in a particular weapon, then all those focus/specialisation feats begin to add up. Of course, equipment that grants ridiculous strength or dexterity bonuses (like in MotB) will often drown out all those smaller bonuses.

 

My halfling party currently playing through SoZ has weapon foci in various thrown weapons (slings, darts, shuriken). The +1 bonus from the Good Aim feat, the +1 bonus from weapon focus feats, dexterity bonuses, spell buffs, etc all add up.

[Thorsson64]

I rarely find that I have Feats to waste, even with Fighter. Of course it depends on what PrCs you want. But I look to get Steadfast, LoH, maybe Able Learner, for instance, on top of such requirements.

[Dann-J]

Dann-J.. I agree with the proper weapon focus' adding up but weapon focus in darts, slings and shurikens ? Extra feats might add up on them but they still wont do as much damage as a decent ranged weapon.

Would you in all seriousness, even if you were a hobbit, go on an adventure into a land filled with bandits, trolls and all sorts of nasties with a handful of darts rather than a crossbow ? How far can a hobbit throw ? Certainly not as far as he/she can shoot. Even Frodo the most whimpish one imaginable had a sword.

 

In D&D halflings are the kings (and queens) of thrown weapons!

 

Halflings get a +1 bonus to attack with thrown weapons (darts, shuriken, throwing axes, slings), so my halfling party mostly specialises in them for the sake of roleplaying accuracy. The cleric / stormlord throws electrified shurikens (with rapid shot and zen archery). The rogue / shadowdancer flings darts (not for their base damage, but for their sneak attack damage). The ranger / warsling sniper is devastating with his sling (rapid shot, sneak attack, focus, specialisation, improved critical). The only odd-hin-out is the party leader, a tanked fighter / weapon master. He's the party meat shield, holding back enemies so the ranged specialists can do their thing. Although even he has a few stacks of throwing axes.

 

When you're relying on additional damage like sneak attack or shocking burst, it doesn't really matter what the base damage of the weapon is. And with everyone using rapid shot, even small amounts of base damage start to add up as well. Halflings (and gnomes) also get the benefit of 1.5x strength damage bonus when using a sling without a shield (although not with tiny weapons like darts or shuriken).

 

In SoZ I've had them take the Missile Volley team feat to make them even more effective. So far they've been tearing through enemies quite nicely - and mostly from a safe distance.  They tend to chew through ammo at an alarming rate though. A stack of 50 darts or shuriken doesn't last long with rapid shot active.

[Dann-J]

They still sound like a bunch of annoying little buggers fighting with toothpicks but at least now I will look at the dart weapon focus and think of you.

I stand corrected but still think all those feats and weapons are crap !

 

At least I found a good use for shuriken in combat.

 

I'd never given them a second look with their crappy 1d2 base damage and no bonus strength damage. I wanted to create a halfling stormlord that could take the PrC as early as possible (level 6), so I took the War domain and chose an appropriate god that halflings worship that has a favoured weapon that stormlords need weapon focus in (Tymora / shuriken). The War domain gave me that weapon focus for free (the Earth domain also gave me Toughness for free - another stormlord prerequisite). What's more, as a thrown weapon the shuriken benefited from the Good Aim feat that halflings get. Now I use them merely as a vehicle for the Shocking Burst / Sonic Weapon ability.

 

I'm starting to wonder that a halfling cleric / monk / stormlord would be like if Flurry of Blows and Rapid Shot stack. Electric Hin Fist of doom!

[Luminus]

A Rogue/Monk (or Assassin) makes great use of Shurikens too.

Greater Flurried Shuriken Sneak/Death Attacks at no penalty? Yes, please. Even better than the electrified/sonic shurikens from Stormlord, especially if you're hasted by a party member or if you have Epic Precision. (Rogue19/Monk11? Totally doable)
With haste, that's 4 attacks at the highest BAB, awesome for sneak attacks.

But if you throw Stormlord in it (Rogue/Monk/Cleric/Stormlord) it gets even more ridiculous.