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Health and Healing: A View from the Outside


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#576
AlanC9

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That's along the lines on what I said and the reason healing is irrelevant. As far as nightmare goes, healing alone isn't enough to sustain the extra damage, so a player is forced to play with defensive cooldowns. It's not that you don't "need" a healer for Nightmare. It's that a specialized healer does more bad than good. You want more damage and more definitive ways to mitigate damage. Healing is just not enough.
 


Hmm. Assuming this to be true -- I've heard of heal-based approached to Nightmare that work fine, but since I haven't played such parties myself I don't know about their relative efficiency -- doesn't healing being irrelevant mean that this whole thread is a lot of fuss over not much?

#577
AlanC9

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Well, most of the non-challenging fight's you could still mess up if you were sufficiently dopey


Sure. I dom't think that's going to change, though. If anything, the threshold for messing up will get a little higher, since now a TPW isn't the only fail state.

#578
Wulfram

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Sure. I dom't think that's going to change, though. If anything, the threshold for messing up will get a little higher, since now a TPW isn't the only fail state.

 

The amount of damage an average encounter is expected to deal to the party has been reduced.  That means that the consequences of messing up are reduced - if you do badly you're not going to die, you're just going to have to go back to heal.



#579
sylvanaerie

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The amount of damage an average encounter is expected to deal to the party has been reduced.  That means that the consequences of messing up are reduced - if you do badly you're not going to die, you're just going to have to go back to heal.

 

Meh I used this tactic a lot in Phantasy Star 3.  Fight a couple fights, run back to the inn, go a few steps, fight a couple fights, run back to the inn.  As long as camp isn't hell and gone across the map, I guess I'm okay with this tactic.

 

*edit* would work till I have to explore a dungeon on an extensive crawl (if that's even in here) because going back wouldn't work unless fast travel works like a teleport, and usable anywhere on the map.



#580
The Elder King

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Meh I used this tactic a lot in Phantasy Star 3.  Fight a couple fights, run back to the inn, go a few steps, fight a couple fights, run back to the inn.  As long as camp isn't hell and gone across the map, I guess I'm okay with this tactic.
 
*edit* would work till I have to explore a dungeon on an extensive crawl (if that's even in here) because going back wouldn't work unless fast travel works like a teleport, and usable anywhere on the map.

In every region you can establish 5 camps.

#581
Gtdef

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But again, if the game is balanced around mana/stamina regens, then they shouldn't have a need for a class that is continually restoring these resources. Not only that, but we're also pretty much forced to bring certain classes along for specific actions. Without a rogue in your party, you'd be unable to pick a lock to rescue Leliana, for example, without a warrior, you can't bash down a gate to capture a fort, and without a mage, you can't energize a bridge to cross over it to seal a rift and their barrier spells are defined as being needed in the early parts of the game. If a hypothetical mana/stamina regenerator was included, why would they be different than needing a certain class to proceed with a mission or needing a mage to cast barrier spells in order to survive? And who'd say that you wouldn't get more options for resource healing later in the game such as the healing bombs we have in DA:I, which would prevent such a mana/stamina regenerator from being a party staple?

 

You make too many assumptions. We don't have definitive info on how necessary classes are. Bioware claims that you can play the game with a 4 same class setup. I assume this happens either because there are alternative paths, or because in the most extreme of cases, you can bring a mage once to fix all bridges and then you are fine. We also don't know how important the barrier spell will be. People erroneously still think that healing and tanks are important in DAO and DA2. How can you tell what is important in DAI when we don't even know all the abilities. We will have to see how this plays out.

 

The mmo example I gave is a way to increase difficulty in a different design. You keep the same output, but you can't do this perpetually. The question shouldn't be "why not to include" rather than "why to include". In a traditional mmo, every class has 5-6 different healing spells. The design has to provide reasons for the players to just not use the maximum output one. Limited mana is the framework, the existence of abilities that universally deal with limited mana is to balance the negative points of that decision. Which in return creates another balance problem, forcing the class that has the said ability to lack in another aspect, like healing output which then goes in a cycle and forces the designers to rebalance the output of the first class. And that's the main reason mmos release balance patches every month. There are so many parameters that simple theorycrafting can't solve, like boss fight mechanics, gear, even terrain plays a part. And I'm not even going into PvP. 

 

Why should a few problematic abilities instead of being rebalanced to match the numbers, have to be dealt with indirectly, making the resource mechanic more than it should be? Especially when the new direction isn't necessarily resource focused (we can't choose our attributes) and classes don't have 5 different abilities that perform the same function. DAO could work with some resource tweaking for certain classes. I can hardly see how DA2 would and it's too early to say for DAI, but provided that this time around we have even less abilities to play with, I don't think it will be that different. Could be wrong though.



#582
Gtdef

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Hmm. Assuming this to be true -- I've heard of heal-based approached to Nightmare that work fine, but since I haven't played such parties myself I don't know about their relative efficiency -- doesn't healing being irrelevant mean that this whole thread is a lot of fuss over not much?

 

Healing is convenient but isn't enough to sustain the damage by itself. This is particularly true for DA2, but in DAO you have even more options.

 

Some builds allow certain spells like the heroic line, to be way more effective than they should be. Take for example a high Dex tank. It can reach up to 100-110 defense very easily. This isn't that impressive since there is a good chance to get hit, and not enough con means that each hit will be devastating. Add heroic defense and now it reaches almost 100% evasion chance effectively becoming immune to most melee attacks. Add a forcefield for when a dragon bites you that you can't avoid the damage, and you have a damageproof tank. Healing just fixes your mistakes, like positional, which resulted in your mage taking some damage, enemy spell abilities that you were too slow to interrupt or friendly fire.

 

Thing is, the game is soloable in Nightmare. This alone makes healing mostly irrelevant. 

 

For DAI I'm not sure how it plays out yet. If we have classes with the equivalent of fully improved fatiguing fogs, then chances are that the game will be laughably easy like DA2 turned out to be.



#583
leadintea

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Why should a few problematic abilities instead of being rebalanced to match the numbers, have to be dealt with indirectly, making the resource mechanic more than it should be? Especially when the new direction isn't necessarily resource focused (we can't choose our attributes) and classes don't have 5 different abilities that perform the same function. DAO could work with some resource tweaking for certain classes. I can hardly see how DA2 would and it's too early to say for DAI, but provided that this time around we have even less abilities to play with, I don't think it will be that different. Could be wrong though.

 

They could rebalance the healing formula, and I would have absolutely no problem with it. The resource limit was just a suggestion on how they could balance not only healing spells, but also defensive abilities and cheesing with kiting and terrain tactics.



#584
Gtdef

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They could rebalance the healing formula, and I would have absolutely no problem with it. The resource limit was just a suggestion on how they could balance not only healing spells, but also defensive abilities and cheesing with kiting and terrain tactics.

 

My initial point was that tweaking resource management, based on examples of previous DA games, would work more to limit healing and spammable abilities than defensive cooldowns which have a "set and forget" attitude. The easiest way to balance them short of removing a bunch of them would be to just cut down the duration. Make them tighter and their primary function would be to just deal with special attacks from stronger enemies.

 

A good example of defensive cooldown is glyph of paralysis in DA2. The radius is relatively small, has a single function and affects a limited amount of enemies. Fatiguing fog has a huge radius and has a triple effect. Debuffs the enemy speed (both types), makes you almost unhittable due to obscuring, and disorients everyone (debuffing them even more and enabling ccc). The way to balance this is simple. Either let it have friendly fire, or start cutting down the effects.



#585
Star fury

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The bolded part is exactly why I vastly prefer this new system. The strategic and tactical elements of the new combat system, especially regarding positioning, makes me really feel more like a leader or "general" leading my Inquisition into battle with real threats. Way better than the feel of being a gang of super powered demigods with infinite health and no danger who just roams around.

Think like a general, fight like a spartan! I think I've heard it before, it certainly worked as advertised! :D :P



#586
Tielis

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You mean by the Giants? Those guys were clearly above the players level, and likely required more thought to face at that point than I saw most people use in these vids.

 

Being underleveled makes sense, but the whole "tactical mode is required on every difficulty level" does not.  On Easy mode, I want to be able to set my companions' tactics, let them go, and still be fine.


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#587
In Exile

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Healing is convenient but isn't enough to sustain the damage by itself. This is particularly true for DA2, but in DAO you have even more options.

 

Some builds allow certain spells like the heroic line, to be way more effective than they should be. Take for example a high Dex tank. It can reach up to 100-110 defense very easily. This isn't that impressive since there is a good chance to get hit, and not enough con means that each hit will be devastating. Add heroic defense and now it reaches almost 100% evasion chance effectively becoming immune to most melee attacks. Add a forcefield for when a dragon bites you that you can't avoid the damage, and you have a damageproof tank. Healing just fixes your mistakes, like positional, which resulted in your mage taking some damage, enemy spell abilities that you were too slow to interrupt or friendly fire.

 

Thing is, the game is soloable in Nightmare. This alone makes healing mostly irrelevant. 

 

For DAI I'm not sure how it plays out yet. If we have classes with the equivalent of fully improved fatiguing fogs, then chances are that the game will be laughably easy like DA2 turned out to be.

 

I didn't realize how broken DA2 was until I realized that fatiguing fogs weren't FF-bait. 



#588
Nohvarr

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Being underleveled makes sense, but the whole "tactical mode is required on every difficulty level" does not.  On Easy mode, I want to be able to set my companions' tactics, let them go, and still be fine.

.....the majority of the youtubers never touched Tactical mode, and the two devs that played the game and posted about it rarely used it as well if memory serves.


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#589
sylvanaerie

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.....the majority of the youtubers never touched Tactical mode, and the two devs that played the game and posted about it rarely used it as well if memory serves.

 

If this be the case, then I expect to use micromanagement a lot (I did on particularly hard fights in both of Inquisition's predecessors) but then once I set up 'tactical AI' to see where that takes me.  On Easy mode, if as described, it should be as simple as this, making combat not one 'long ass tedious, tactical grind' where I have to take control and micromanage every single fight but something at least akin to what I am familiar with.  The AI in Easy mode in both DA's was sufficient with only slight tweaks to allow me to enjoy my game and still not die every little fight.

 

If this is so, then it's definitely doable.  Thanks for the info, it does help.  

 

*edit* I'd 'like' your post but I've reached my quota for the day (that's never happened before lol) but suffice to say, I like it.



#590
Jester

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I didn't realize how broken DA2 was until I realized that fatiguing fogs weren't FF-bait. 

I never used Fatiguing Fog. Is it that good?



#591
Icy Magebane

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I never used Fatiguing Fog. Is it that good?

It's really good.



#592
Yakko77

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2a1dc02d0QK8f.jpg

 

So not fun.  I hope something like this is not in DA:I.


LOL!  That picture is funny.  Though I did use my dog as a diversion my latest Rogue play through pretty much owned him in single combat.  As a mage I generally have to run around quite a bit.



#593
sylvanaerie

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LOL!  That picture is funny.  Though I did use my dog as a diversion my latest Rogue play through pretty much owned him in single combat.  As a mage I generally have to run around quite a bit.

 

Yea my DW assassin, Kit(ty) Hawke, was the only one that owned him--by that time I had all the DLC and mods rocking the game.  Though my Templar came close, but she was a powerhouse 2 handed weapon wielder who mostly went toe to toe, popping cool downs and kiting between them.  My mage ran around in circles while I screamed and kept pressing buttons yelling "GET HIM! GET HIM!"--my daughter laughs at me when I play, I get so vocal...and yes I DO scream like a little girl when I play.  My archer did much the same thing as my mages, but he was a lot more fun to watch because when you assassinate with a bow (can't remember if it's so with daggers) you do this little flip thing.  I wanted to catch a screenie, but just missed the flip, pulled around the camera to try again and saw I'd caught a shot of the arrow going straight into the Arishok's groin.  Satisfied, I snapped it and went from there.  Raphael didn't do it 'prettily' but he won that duel with dirty tactics.  A win was still a win!



#594
Pani Mauser

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Barrier: If you have a mage in your party, and you SHOULD have a mage in your party,
 

Thanks for the post, but I still have questions. You point out that players should have mages in their party for barriers. Does that mean it will be impossible to get through game with, say, a rogue-only (or warrior-only, or no-mages-allowed-mix) team?  I could do it in DAO or DA2, but health system was different there.

 

I usually pick my party based on personality of companions, not on their function. And your post makes me think that the game forces you to have certain party composition based on roles. Or it is true only for Normal and up and on Easy you can get by even with most unoptimized party composition?



#595
sylvanaerie

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Thanks for the post, but I still have questions. You point out that players should have mages in their party for barriers. Does that mean it will be impossible to get through game with, say, a rogue-only (or warrior-only, or no-mages-allowed-mix) team?  I could do it in DAO or DA2, but health system was different there.

 

I usually pick my party based on personality of companions, not on their function. And your post makes me think that the game forces you to have certain party composition based on roles. Or it is true only for Normal and up and on Easy you can get by even with most unoptimized party composition?

 

Warriors get "Guard" and some races have abilities that resist damage additionally (like Qunari are resistant to Melee, dwarves to magic, elves to ranged weapons etc).  Rogues get an item that lets them (and the party I believe) teleport from the fight and heal somewhat.  Unsure if they get a damage mitigation skill per se.



#596
Zu Long

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Warriors get "Guard" and some races have abilities that resist damage additionally (like Qunari are resistant to Melee, dwarves to magic, elves to ranged weapons etc).  Rogues get an item that lets them (and the party I believe) teleport from the fight and heal somewhat.  Unsure if they get a damage mitigation skill per se.

 

I imagine that for a party of four rogues the trick will be stealthing in to the best positions and then murdering the enemy before they've realized you're there.



#597
sylvanaerie

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I imagine that for a party of four rogues the trick will be stealthing in to the best positions and then murdering the enemy before they've realized you're there.

Maybe, it's the tactic I use on my Imperial Agent and my Rogue on WoW.  Do you know if it lasts that long in Inquisition?  If it's limited to a few seconds like in DA2, it's going to be hard for me to use it tactically in this manner.   I imagined they do a lot of CC like stuns/saps to hold off on some opponents while murderlizing their targets.  I use a lot of that tactic in SW and WoW too.



#598
VilhoDog13

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Warriors get "Guard" and some races have abilities that resist damage additionally (like Qunari are resistant to Melee, dwarves to magic, elves to ranged weapons etc). Rogues get an item that lets them (and the party I believe) teleport from the fight and heal somewhat. Unsure if they get a damage mitigation skill per se.


Rogues most likely will have some form of cc as well. I'm sure there will be plenty of traps/stuns for them to control the field. IT helps they're probably the highest dps potential out of all the classes. As for the warriors, they do get guard and taunt, plus a lot of health/armor. Keep taunting between your team? Lol. That'd be funny to see.

#599
VilhoDog13

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Maybe, it's the tactic I use on my Imperial Agent and my Rogue on WoW. Do you know if it lasts that long in Inquisition? If it's limited to a few seconds like in DA2, it's going to be hard for me to use it tactically in this manner. I imagined they do a lot of CC like stuns/saps to hold off on some opponents while murderlizing their targets.


I believe I saw something like 30 second stealth. That should be plenty of time.

#600
sylvanaerie

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I believe I saw something like 30 second stealth. That should be plenty of time.

yea, 30 seconds is definitely enough time to get into position.