1390 réponses à ce sujet

[KoorahUK]

I call BS. Straight up.

What I would have done is make healing spells take time to cast and work and be easily interrupted. That way they would be difficult to pull off in combat and better suited for use after the fight. However, if the player is skilled enough at diverting enemy attention then it can be used in combat as well. Fits lore and makes sense.

Fits lore, makes sense, and does nothing to solve the problems Bioware are trying to solve. Ooc healing means that all fights have to assume you start with full health. Interruptible combat healing means the enemy throwing more of the cc, stun and alpha strike attack BioWare are trying to reduce. I'm afraid all this suggestion does is make effective healing the preserve of "skilled" players and not a lot of fun for everyone else.

[KoorahUK]

Yes, I don't mind fight to be set to wipe the party cause they did exactly that in DAO and it was excellent.

That is a matter of opinion Mr/Mrs Fury.

[fchopin]

All of the methods you suggest still leave BioWare with a party that is at full health after every fight. This doesn't solve the problem they were trying to solve, all it does is make healing less fun to use.

After a fight you can go back to camp and you would be healed so what is wrong with having slow regeneration that makes sense?
There is nothing stopping people going back to camp for healing and restocking so what you say does not make sense.

[Heimdall]

After a fight you can go back to camp and you would be healed so what is wrong with having slow regeneration that makes sense?
There is nothing stopping people going back to camp for healing and restocking so what you say does not make sense.

IF they want to walk all the way back, that's their prerogative. However the player must weigh the benefits of a full potion stock with marching onward and taking a chance with what they have left.  That's what makes this system different, you have to think in terms of the cumulative effects of many battles instead of just the next one in your planning.

 

Regeneration removes that entirely.

[KoorahUK]

After a fight you can go back to camp and you would be healed so what is wrong with having slow regeneration that makes sense?
There is nothing stopping people going back to camp for healing and restocking so what you say does not make sense.

No, no they are not the same at all. 

If you choose go back to camp and restock after every battle, you have to retrace your steps after every battle. That is a sizeable disincentive to doing it. 

With OOC healing you can stay in one place or even explore forwards while your health bars refill - you lose no time whatsoever. There is no discentive for using OOC healing whatsoever, so lets be honest everybody will do it. 

Therefore if you build a combat system that includes OOC healing, devs have to build encounters on the assumption that you are at full health at each and every encounter, therefore each encounter must be potentially lethal or its barely worth doing. Without OOC healing, and with a sizable disincentive for running back to camp after each battle, devs can more easily calculate the amount of HP available to you and plan more varied but less lethal encounters. 


 

[sylvanaerie]

Well, umm...  I planned on backtracking a lot until I can get a handle on the new combat system. How much I'll be required to do so depends on how steep the learning curve is.  I suspect I may be doing that all game (first game) if I can't get the hang of it.  Subsequent games will be easier once I learn how things work.  But that still means I'll spend at least a good 50% of my time just backtracking (or fast traveling and then running back).  Thank the Maker we get mounts in this game.  Since I preordered I will have the Halla and the Undead Mount, which should cut some of that travel down.

[Jester]

 The approach in terms of mobility is simple: always stay on your feet and move around the battlefield to keep a solid line between you and the enemy and pepper then with CC and CCC. This is actually why taunt is worthless except for bosses who are damage sponges and against whom mitigation matters.

Nah, The easiest approach is just running back. Then all enemies spawn in the front. That was the only thing DA2 enforced 'tactically' on me. Just an annoyance. 

Besides, that wave combat was breaking immersion for me like nothing I've ever encountered in any RPG and it made otherwise improved combat system tedious and annoying. 

That's why playing both DLCs (which have almost no wave combat) was such a joy for me.

 

Well, umm...   I planned on backtracking a lot until I can get a handle on the new combat system. How much I'll be required to do so depends on how steep the learning curve is.  I suspect I may be doing that all game (first game) if I can't get the hang of it.

 

Take a look at the new gameplay (one with PC interface), and notice how many camps are marked on the map in the Emerald Graves(?) location.

[KoorahUK]

Well, umm...  I planned on backtracking a lot until I can get a handle on the new combat system. How much I'll be required to do so depends on how steep the learning curve is.  I suspect I may be doing that all game (first game) if I can't get the hang of it.  Subsequent games will be easier once I learn how things work.  But that still means I'll spend at least a good 50% of my time just backtracking (or fast traveling and then running back).  Thank the Maker we get mounts in this game.  Since I preordered I will have the Halla and the Undead Mount, which should cut some of that travel down.

I honestly think the amount of back tracking people will have to do will be negligible - I know its a big fear, and I genuinely understand it, but I think it's still applying DAO/2 experience to DAI combat.

Biggest thing to remember is that your scouts will have set up a number of forward camps in the region. Instead of back tracking, you are supposed to go forward to the next camp, just perhaps not engaging every thug you see because "moaaaaar xp". Making a decision about whether its worth taking on the bandits between you and the next camp when your party health is low and your out of potions is possibly a bigger paradigm shift than casting barrier instead of heal. 
 

[fchopin]

No, no they are not the same at all. 

If you choose go back to camp and restock after every battle, you have to retrace your steps after every battle. That is a sizeable disincentive to doing it. 

With OOC healing you can stay in one place or even explore forwards while your health bars refill - you lose no time whatsoever. There is no discentive for using OOC healing whatsoever, so lets be honest everybody will do it. 

Therefore if you build a combat system that includes OOC healing, devs have to build encounters on the assumption that you are at full health at each and every encounter, therefore each encounter must be potentially lethal or its barely worth doing. Without OOC healing, and with a sizable disincentive for running back to camp after each battle, devs can more easily calculate the amount of HP available to you and plan more varied but less lethal encounters.

But that is exactly what they do not want to do as it would prove the point that some people are complaining about that it would make combat boring if they had to go back to camp for restocking and healing all the time.

That is what people do not want for combat so if you are making that point Bioware will have problems.

I have no problem with this as i am used to playing JRPG’s that need me to go back to camp for restocking and healing to upgrade my level. Nothing new with this combat technique.

[fchopin]

Regeneration removes that entirely.

No it does not it just makes it take longer to heal by going back to camp, no difference at all.

[Heimdall]

But that is exactly what they do not want to do as it would prove the point that some people are complaining about that it would make combat boring if they had to go back to camp for restocking and healing all the time.

That is what people do not want for combat so if you are making that point Bioware will have problems.

I have no problem with this as i am used to playing JRPG’s that need me to go back to camp for restocking and healing to upgrade my level. Nothing new with this combat technique.

Except that, unless they're totally incompetent at damage mitigation, they won't have to do that.  The goal become not just to survive combat but to get out with minimal damage.  You won't have to do it "all the time" if you play smart any more than you had to restock on health and mana potions in previous games.

[Heimdall]

No it does not it just makes it take longer to heal by going back to camp, no difference at all.

Regeneration removes the attrition aspect entirely because players would be coming into each fight at full health, which defeats one of the goals of the system and constrains the dev's encounter designs.

[PhroXenGold]

Except that, unless they're totally incompetent at damage mitigation, they won't have to do that.  The goal become not just to survive combat but to get out with minimal damage.  You won't have to do it "all the time" if you play smart any more than you had to restock on health and mana potions in previous games.

 

And if you are finding yourself going back to camp too often to be enjoying the game, you can always just turn the difficulty down....

[wtfman99]

I think I would be fine with no healing spells if they just had regeneration at the end of combat like usual, but that's just me thinking before the game comes out. It might be fine once I get going.

[Eudaemonium]

I honestly think the amount of back tracking people will have to do will be negligible - I know its a big fear, and I genuinely understand it, but I think it's still applying DAO/2 experience to DAI combat.

 

Hey, even if we have to backtrack to camp constantly, it'll be nothing compared to the amount of backtracking in DA2, amirite? XD

[dutch_gamer]

No it does not it just makes it take longer to heal by going back to camp, no difference at all.

There is a huge difference because who in their right mind keeps going back to camp when there is no real need to with the combat system having been completely overhauled with less emphasis on healing.

[fchopin]

Except that, unless they're totally incompetent at damage mitigation, they won't have to do that.  The goal become not just to survive combat but to get out with minimal damage.  You won't have to do it "all the time" if you play smart any more than you had to restock on health and mana potions in previous games.

As i said before it is impossible for developers to make combat hard or easy without knowing at what level you will be in a game where the players controls how and when they level up.
If developers wish to control how hard battles will be then they should go back to level scaling where players have no choice with levelling up to make fights hard or easy.
We are able to do fights where we would be level 10 and the opponents are level 20 if we want.

[fchopin]

There is a huge difference because who in their right mind keeps going back to camp when there is no real need to with the combat system having been completely overhauled with less emphasis on healing.

No difference at all after the fight is over; all it is is time and boredom.

[fchopin]

Regeneration removes the attrition aspect entirely because players would be coming into each fight at full health, which defeats one of the goals of the system and constrains the dev's encounter designs.

You can go to camp after each fight so you can be fully healed before each fight unless we are restricted in the game.

[Heimdall]

As i said before it is impossible for developers to make combat hard or easy without knowing at what level you will be in a game where the players controls how and when they level up.
If developers wish to control how hard battles will be then they should go back to level scaling where players have no choice with levelling up to make fights hard or easy.
We are able to do fights where we would be level 10 and the opponents are level 20 if we want.

They do control how hard battles will be, the battles are designed to be challenging for players of similar level to their foes.  If the player strays into areas with enemies of higher level, the challenge will be greater and they will likely die, to attempt again when they've reached a more appropriate level.  And lower level areas are simply outgrown, you're not supposed to be challenged by enemies many levels below you.

 

Your reasoning makes no sense.  You can try fighting level 20 enemies with a level 10 party, and you'll lose.  How is that a failure to control difficulty?

[Heimdall]

You can go to camp after each fight so you can be fully healed before each fight unless we are restricted in the game.

You can, if you think the backtrack is worth it or you think you can get to the next camp without running into enemies.  Its a valid way to play, it just has potentially significant tradeoff.  If you really can't get through the game otherwise, lower the difficulty.

[fchopin]

They do control how hard battles will be, the battles are designed to be challenging for players of similar level to their foes.  If the player strays into areas with enemies of higher level, the challenge will be greater and they will likely die, to attempt again when they've reached a more appropriate level.  And lower level areas are simply outgrown, you're not supposed to be challenged by enemies many levels below you.
 
Your reasoning makes no sense.  You can try fighting level 20 enemies with a level 10 party, and you'll lose.  How is that a failure to control difficulty?

They said there is level scaling so they can only guess what level the player will be.
I think we can also pick what part of the story to do first so we would control what level we would be.
How would they know what level we would be before we play the game?

You can, if you think the backtrack is worth it or you think you can get to the next camp without running into enemies. Its a valid way to play, it just has potentially significant tradeoff. If you really can't get through the game otherwise, lower the difficulty.

I have no problem in difficulty, they can make the game much harder if they like.

[KoorahUK]

As i said before it is impossible for developers to make combat hard or easy without knowing at what level you will be in a game where the players controls how and when they level up.
If developers wish to control how hard battles will be then they should go back to level scaling where players have no choice with levelling up to make fights hard or easy.
We are able to do fights where we would be level 10 and the opponents are level 20 if we want.

Far from being impossible, it is far, far, easier for the devs to balance combat without scaling, especially when you take healing out of the equation. 

 

Balancing is done on the basis of a party fighting enemies their own level. The fight should be somewhat evenly matched. Having established the right combat power for an even level encounter that is fixed for those enemies. When you level scale, you are increasing the damage output and hit points per a mathematical scale (I believe) but the further up the level scale you go the harder this is to get right becasue of the increasing variables in party dynamics and power, meaning that some fights are easier if takle them early and others are easier if you tackle them later.

If you don't scale, you as a player have more control over whether you want an easy fight or a tough one. If you choose to fight level 20 guys at level 10 well... good luck. 

[fchopin]

Balancing is done on the basis of a party fighting enemies their own level.

How will they know what level the player will be without level scaling?

[KoorahUK]

You can go to camp after each fight so you can be fully healed before each fight unless we are restricted in the game.

You can do, and if you think thats fun then... that is your choice I guess. The game isn't designed for you to do that though, and that is certainly not how combat design was intended. If you are playing at the correct difficulty for your skill level and you are utilising the tools available to you, you should be able to make the distance from one camp to another on a single stack of potions. 
 

The point is, the combat design is to chip away at the parties finite health pool, rather than outright kill you by overwhelming your health pool each and every encounter.