1390 réponses à ce sujet

[Ordeth]

First of all, there's more CC in this game than in any DA game previously.

Secondly, there may have been a finite number of potions, technically, but in DA:O there was no cooldown for using them. Keep buying them and you'll have a nice stock. If you're using all your potions in DA:O, you're doing something wrong.

There were party combinations that didn't require a healer, and it was still possible to do well. In DA2, I had Sebastian, Isabela, and Fenris. There was so much DPS enemies died left and right before my mage could react.

If you want to know specific abilities then look up the Skill Tree thread. They've posted almost entire trees for mages, rogues, and several trees for warriors.

The new combat is stepping away from healing- for the reason of minimizing game frustration and adding balance.

Instead of the enemy having chain CC (I was playing DA2 and my mage was chain stunned for days), which causes incredible frustration, they're wanting to focus less on that by removing healing. The reason heavy CC, and powerful one-shot abilities were in the game were to balance out the incredible healing that could be done. The devs would have to take into account the extra HP you'd have by healing. One-shotting (or massive damage) abilities made you react by healing.

This new method isn't about reacting, but rather preparing and preventing. You'll have more control over your character (enemies will chain CC far less often), therefore it'll be less frustrating to fight certain enemies.

THAT is the main reason they changed the system. Not to "consolize" anything.

 

I didnt mention DA2,  because it wasn't really that good. Origin's was far superior. The healing was a lot closer to the classic WOW where a healing class was part of it all and was a fun class to play.

 

Hopefully the new shield system etc just works. But a healing  / partial healing class is generally a big part of these kind of games and it makes no sence in the world its based it to all of a sudden have no healing when it was such a big part of it before.

 

I'm not talking about the normal / easy modes either. U can usually just breese through those without much difficuilty.

I don't remember any characters being 1 shot during the entire game.

 

The preparing and preventing was still a part of it too, as was keeping the healer alive so you could survive the fights. Either by taunts, targeting enemies going for your squishy classes or cc.

 

Potions did have a cooldown, though it wasnt shared between them and it wasnt that long. But if you spammed them every fight you would run out pretty quickly. Sure you could buy a tonne of elfroots and flasks to make cheap lesser ones but they didnt really do much end game anyway and spending all your money on potions was a waste instead of some of those 120-150g weapons available

 

I found another video of the guys going through the game and actually play properly at around level 3-4. And it does look well designed and thought out. I'll just start on hard and see how I go.

[KoorahUK]

That really depends on the abilities really. I mean something like an aoe is something you hope hits in order to stun, but things that are single target its automatically a homing attack it seems. Not sure how it really is in DAI, but if the player can use a single spell that cant miss, enemies should have a similar advantage as well. So being stunned is just something that should be overcome. Typically in DAO if such things happened, I always had force field, or sometimes doing a stun or a freeze would negate those takedown abilities from mabari. Just examples. Hopefully it is alot more cleaned up in DAI when it comes to dealing with certain CCs.

We've seen party members knocked about by shield bashes and slowed by chill effects (if not frozen completely) but I think the difference will be that these abilities are telegraphed by the bad guy giving you a chance to counter or evade, rather than hoping the collection if numbers on your stats sheet protects you I'm replaying Dao at present and I'd forgotten how many cc's the bad guys throw at you which just can't be evaded. Deep Roads are just a total web fest.

Fast travel helps sure as well as tables. But tables like those before a boss room defeats the purpose doesn't it? They said they want each fight to matter in a way that doesnt have enemies deal huge amounts of dmg assuming play and enemy level are equal or so. But if the small fights only serve to make one go back and heal up before big bad or have the table right there it is almost like what is the point of no out-of-combat healing? Or rather a limited amount?

No it doesn't defeat the point at all. The point being, that you must manage your health on the journey *to* the Boss, deciding which fights to take on and which to avoid. This is no different from managing your potions as you explore from one camp to the next.

What I think would have been a better choice, is to have potion limitation, have the no in combat healing aside from what there already is like the focus one.. But have outside healing spells in order to avoid the frustrations of heading back.

This misses the point of the combat redesign entirely I'm afraid. What this equates to is:

Finish fight, heal to full.
Finish fight, heal to full.

Repeat repeat repeat.

As long as one party member finishes the fight, everyone is healed to full and the fight you just had is rendered meaningless other than you spent a few minutes of game time resolving it.

Maybe my suggestion isn't the best method, but I think there exists a better way to achieve what they want but also avoid situations like this, especially for higher difficulties where it will most likely frustrate players. After all, now there is an achievement for nightmare playthrough and I know some players will want to do it just to get the achievement, even if it isn't on their first playthrough.

All of this is still time spent with the need to travel back and restock. Even at minimal it will still interrupt the flow. It is more realistic but this is one of those things where the realistic sense isnt needed.

This is a semi open world game, not the 'start here, end there' design of old. In the past you were expected to clear the map by fighting everything you see. This was possible because your health regenerated.

In this game enemies respawn until you take their keeps and bases, liberating areas for the Inquisition, which I doubt you'll be able to do until you have levelled some. This means that fighting everything you see is going to mean you will run out potions eventually and will have to restock. How long that takes is down to your own skill as a player, but it will occur, and for what? So those bandits you doggedly purged from the area can just refill it because you haven't yet taken their keeps?

What players need to do is stop looking at this as DAO/DA2 combat without healing - it isn't. You are here to perform specific tasks for the inquisition - be that obtaining resources for your troops or completing a war table mission - and you need to manage your health so that you can achieve those goals. Unlike before, the game is not built around you clearing everything you see, its built around you engaging in the fights you deem worth it. Thats why "interrupting flow" is somewhat meaningless is DAI it relates to a combat approach that is no longer used.

[Shahadem]

The irony is that 99% of combat in DAO and DA2 is nothing but a timesink, because it doesn't matter how badly you do, as long as you manage to survive it, you're completely healed up afterwards and it's like nothing happened. The combat has no effect on the game at all beyond giving you a few more XP.

 

It's a pointless time sink because there is so much of it and because after the first couple fights, it's just repeating the same motions over and over again against the same enemies over and over again.

 

This game doesn't look to be any different.

 

Adding penalties to the player doesn't make something more meaningful, it just serves to ****** the player off when accidents happen. Something can only be meaningful because it is meaningful in and of itself. So a bunch of random mobs hanging out in the middle of nowhere whose only purpose is to give the player something to kill and have no story related content or anything attached to them will always be meaningless no matter how large a penalty you try adding to the fight the player has with them.

[Shahadem]

You can use blood magic without causing pain, but pain and suffering make it stronger. That's why Isolde had to die for BM to do what lyrium does without death. 

 

The suggestion powers of BM apparently work differently, when combined with whatever "desire" magic is that Idunna used. 

 

Edit: Yeah, I read preacher. Man, that comic was a trip. 

 

No. Isolde needed to die because Jowan needed all the blood her body held. And considering she died nearly instantly (since it's probably impossible to die instantly short of being hit with a Power Word: Death spell), your pain and suffering concept makes even less sense.

[Shahadem]

look's like someone's already working on the spell

 

 

Oh gods, kill them with fire!

[Tevinter Soldier]

I completely forgot about that 

[seraphymon]

We've seen party members knocked about by shield bashes and slowed by chill effects (if not frozen completely) but I think the difference will be that these abilities are telegraphed by the bad guy giving you a chance to counter or evade, rather than hoping the collection if numbers on your stats sheet protects you I'm replaying Dao at present and I'd forgotten how many cc's the bad guys throw at you which just can't be evaded. Deep Roads are just a total web fest.
 

the spiders were annoying, but it lasted maybe 3 seconds. In DAI it looks more of a single based attack that merely slows, although unless you have something in the way, it still is tough to avoid.

 

No it doesn't defeat the point at all. The point being, that you must manage your health on the journey *to* the Boss, deciding which fights to take on and which to avoid. This is no different from managing your potions as you explore from one camp to the next.

This misses the point of the combat redesign entirely I'm afraid. What this equates to is:

Finish fight, heal to full.
Finish fight, heal to full.

Repeat repeat repeat.

As long as one party member finishes the fight, everyone is healed to full and the fight you just had is rendered meaningless other than you spent a few minutes of game time resolving it.

If one goes back to a camp or a table to heal and restock, that fight is rendered useless none the less as well, the only difference. The aggravation and time wasted in order to do so. Or reloading numerous after numerous fights because you took too much damage and you want to avoid  running back to camp and just want to continue.

In DAi as long as one member survives it basically means a run back to camp because one might use all 8 potions just to bring back to full health. So once again it breaks the flow.

 

This is a semi open world game, not the 'start here, end there' design of old. In the past you were expected to clear the map by fighting everything you see. This was possible because your health regenerated.

In this game enemies respawn until you take their keeps and bases, liberating areas for the Inquisition, which I doubt you'll be able to do until you have levelled some. This means that fighting everything you see is going to mean you will run out potions eventually and will have to restock. How long that takes is down to your own skill as a player, but it will occur, and for what? So those bandits you doggedly purged from the area can just refill it because you haven't yet taken their keeps?

What players need to do is stop looking at this as DAO/DA2 combat without healing - it isn't. You are here to perform specific tasks for the inquisition - be that obtaining resources for your troops or completing a war table mission - and you need to manage your health so that you can achieve those goals. Unlike before, the game is not built around you clearing everything you see, its built around you engaging in the fights you deem worth it. Thats why "interrupting flow" is somewhat meaningless is DAI it relates to a combat approach that is no longer used.

It doesnt matter how DAI story is set up or the fact that it is open world.  It is a DA game without healing. It still has the basic system of going from one fight to the next. Yes you can pick and choose which and how often you fight, save for story points and dungeons I assume.  But whether you are doing that, collecting stuff, doing quests, your fighting.  There is a flow to any game, and whenever there is a need to go back to heal or restock its always a negative.. Thats why games try to get away from this, because it creates frustration, minor or major.  

 

Like I said. This idea or new spin to combat sounds reasonable. But I don't think it was thought about all the way through.

[sylvanaerie]

Unless you're playing on Hard/Nightmare there is limited health regen after fights.  50% for Casual mode, 25% for Normal.  Now it's my understanding this means not that you get 50% total, but if you are at less than 50% after the fight, you restore up to half your health.  

Even so, if you are playing in Hard/Nightmare mode, it's 10%.  But if you are playing on those difficulties, you have such skills as you don't need healing.  If that's too difficult for you, then *shrug* I got little sympathy because there are lower difficulty settings you can play in.

[KoorahUK]

If one goes back to a camp or a table to heal and restock, that fight is rendered useless none the less as well, the only difference. The aggravation and time wasted in order to do so. Or reloading numerous after numerous fights because you took too much damage and you want to avoid  running back to camp and just want to continue.

In DAi as long as one member survives it basically means a run back to camp because one might use all 8 potions just to bring back to full health. So once again it breaks the flow.

 

Well I said meaningless rather than useless - the two are not the same. Its only rendered meaningless if you insist on returning to camp after every fight, which is your choice rather than the games design. If you choose to do that when you don't need to I'm not surprised you think the system is rubbish!

if you are finding you are low on health and out of potions after every fight, you are doing something very wrong. Plain and simple. Wrong level, wrong tactics, wrong difficulty. Every potion use I've seen gives a very strong return, and Inq perks can be used to increase their effectiveness. One party member using 8 potions after a single fight just isn't possible.

 

It doesnt matter how DAI story is set up or the fact that it is open world.  It is a DA game without healing. It still has the basic system of going from one fight to the next. Yes you can pick and choose which and how often you fight, save for story points and dungeons I assume.  But whether you are doing that, collecting stuff, doing quests, your fighting.  There is a flow to any game, and whenever there is a need to go back to heal or restock its always a negative.. Thats why games try to get away from this, because it creates frustration, minor or major.  

 

Like I said. This idea or new spin to combat sounds reasonable. But I don't think it was thought about all the way through.

 

But it does matter, very much so. The way you describe "the flow" seems to ignore the fact that game is designed to flow between restocks, and yes that does mean players have to drop the MUST CLEAR THE MAP mentality - often because you can't clear the map, other than fixed missions and dungeons which seem to be liberally sprinkled with potion tables, much like the rest of the area is dotted with camps. 

 

I get that you think this is going to be a frustrating system and it looks as if we are never going to agree on that - at least until we've actually experienced this combat system that they've been building and playtesting for years. But if having to restock occasionally, in a game that is designed with that as a key principle, is the price we pay for more enjoyable combat with less cc's stuns and alpha strikes I'm all for it.

Approaching the game the way its meant to be played rather than how games in the past have done it is going to be key to enjoying it for what it is. 

[Xilizhra]

Again, I never noticed any amount of disruptive stunning in DA2. If some of that was going to be brought back in exchange for healing spells, I'd happily take it.

[KoorahUK]

Again, I never noticed any amount of disruptive stunning in DA2. If some of that was going to be brought back in exchange for healing spells, I'd happily take it.

Yeah DA2 had less cc its true, but it had more alpha strikes and also increased the cooldown on heals and potions considerably. All they really achieved with this was moving loss of control from one mechanic (cc's and stuns) to another (long cooldowns preventing ability use), all so they could compensate for healing - according to Lukas.

[Xilizhra]

Yeah DA2 had less cc its true, but it had more alpha strikes and also increased the cooldown on heals and potions considerably. All they really achieved with this was moving loss of control from one mechanic (cc's and stuns) to another (long cooldowns preventing ability use), all so they could compensate for healing - according to Lukas.

And I'm completely fine with that and don't see it as a problem. Why not just go with that as their solution for DAI?

[KoorahUK]

And I'm completely fine with that and don't see it as a problem. Why not just go with that as their solution for DAI?

Because the people making the game did see it as a problem, and I'm guessing they weren't the only ones. Plenty of people have complained about the combat in both games. BW have access to an awful lot of collated feedback after all.

[Doominike]

I pretty much never got stunned on my main save in DA2 cause Force Mage gives +50 Fortitude. Also because Force Mage has epic CC and enemies don't get to do **** anyway

[Diseasedsoul]

I've bought every bio ware game ever made. Imo you guys died with inquisition. Forcing me to use potions as a means of survival as an all powerful mage is ridiculous. You destroyed the lore with a giant plot hole. Whomever came up with the idea to remove this function needs to be fired with no penance package and never hired again by any other developers so they don't ruin other games. Goodbye bio ware.

[Wolfhaley_210791]

I'm really frustrated about the potions being the only way to heal your character. It's very annoying that you have to run back and forth when exploring the scenery! I would love to have health regen, it would make the progression a lot more smooth and less awkward. It seems like the combat is set up like in Dark Souls, but it just doesn't work in a world explorer like DA:I. Also it makes it hard to solo the game. I really want to solo...

[Doominike]

I'm totes fine with it, my follower's are programmed to take one when they're at low health, I occasionally take one and I've rarely ran out, the only places where I would really have needed to restock had supply boxes in them. Plus Heal On Kill weapon skills and stuff. And you can just revive fallen followers mid-combat anyway

[Vormaerin]

I'm really frustrated about the potions being the only way to heal your character. It's very annoying that you have to run back and forth when exploring the scenery! I would love to have health regen, it would make the progression a lot more smooth and less awkward. It seems like the combat is set up like in Dark Souls, but it just doesn't work in a world explorer like DA:I. Also it makes it hard to solo the game. I really want to solo...

Why are you running back and forth to the camps? I hardly ever go to camps on normal and I'm not playing super tactics god.  I am letting the AI control the other three characters 99% of the time.  Guard is extremely powerful for warriors.  Cassandra and Blackwall are basically invincible.  Most of my potions get used by me, not the AI. (or sometimes Sera because she can't figure out flanking on her own..).

[Bekkael]

I hate it. I was afraid I would hate no healing and using potions only and I totally do. I really hope BioWare returns to health regen and level scaling in their next game. I find combat frustrating and miserable to get through.

[VilhoDog13]

Really? I love it. It adds a new layer of challenge. Plus, the combat is FAR more balanced than in any previous DA game. Just set to easy difficulty if you're having trouble. Hard+ difficulty is suppose to be just that -- hard.

No more stun lock ****. No more crazy burst damage without notice. No more of the super frustrating crap. Everything is totally manageable and within my control.

It also helps to not pull a ton of monsters or use tac vision when things get rough. And like a previous poster mentioned - you can revive your allies by pressing a button. That's fantastic in and of itself.

Sorry to hear you're not liking it. Personally, I'm adoring it.

[Shahadem]

Really? I love it. It adds a new layer of challenge. Plus, the combat is FAR more balanced than in any previous DA game. Just set to easy difficulty if you're having trouble. Hard+ difficulty is suppose to be just that -- hard.

No more stun lock ****. No more crazy burst damage without notice. No more of the super frustrating crap. Everything is totally manageable and within my control.

It also helps to not pull a ton of monsters or use tac vision when things get rough. And like a previous poster mentioned - you can revive your allies by pressing a button. That's fantastic in and of itself.

Sorry to hear you're not liking it. Personally, I'm adoring it.

 

DA:O was fairly balanced if you had mages. DA2 was fairly balanced outside of the ridiculous boss battles.

 

DAI is not balanced because the attrition system sucks.

[Muspade]

DA:O was fairly balanced if you had mages.

 

Hahahaha.

Yeah, right.

[VilhoDog13]

DA:O was fairly balanced if you had mages. DA2 was fairly balanced outside of the ridiculous boss battles.

DAI is not balanced because the attrition system sucks.

The fact that you have to say "if" means the combat isn't balanced. It's a running joke that mages dominated the game.

DA2 is "balanced" because everyone matched your level. Fights weren't difficult (unless there was stun locking) and boss fights were stupid. Therefore - unbalanced.

DA:I is balanced in that you have no sudden burst of damage that you're unable to do anything about. You gain levels, create equipment, and come back to certain areas and you might actually be able to win. Harder areas should be harder. Healing isn't the issue then, it's their damage output. If you're able to manage it, you can win.

[ShinsFortress]

The fact that you have to say "if" means the combat isn't balanced. It's a running joke that mages dominated the game.

DA2 is "balanced" because everyone matched your level. Fights weren't difficult (unless there was stun locking) and boss fights were stupid. Therefore - unbalanced.

DA:I is balanced in that you have no sudden burst of damage that you're unable to do anything about. You gain levels, create equipment, and come back to certain areas and you might actually be able to win. Harder areas should be harder. Healing isn't the issue then, it's their damage output. If you're able to manage it, you can win.

 

I didn't have a problem with that.  I hate game where every class is effectively the same it only changes what toys you use.  DA:O I could play a non mage party if I wanted.  I miss the choice.

[Vormaerin]

The reason you can't play a non mage party is not the combat.  Guard by itself is strong enough to go without barriers if you use it effectively.  Its the "Energize" function in various locations that is the real reason you need a mage.   Same with a Rogue.  Its easy to switch a rogue and warrior in the party for combat purposes, but then you can't deal with locks at all.