155 réponses à ce sujet

[Sifr]

This isn't about spite. This is about protecting our homes, way of life, our very souls (most especially the mages) from the monstrous hordes of the north. Every single qunari is guilty of knowingly supporting a system that institutionalizes and lauds atrocity. I would prefer not to have innocent deaths; hell, I'd be willing to leave Kirkwall and deal with every last spy personally while not involving the authorities. But even if they had to be involved, it'd still be better than letting the qunari have any kind of advantage.

 

I'm not saying that the Qunari are right and what they do to their mages isn't appalling, but don't the Templars don't treat Mages with just as severely just for having suffered an accident of birth that gave them superpowers?

 

It's not fair to overly demonise the Qunari because of their way of life, even if you disagree with it, nor believe that all of them necessarily agree with it. Even Tallis is willing to admit that the Qunari aren't perfect, but they are trying to provide people with a better way of life. And it's unfair to think of them as militant conversion machines after all, since the only interaction most people have with them is via the Antaam, who are trained for war.

 

We have no idea how the masons, the shopkeepers or the bookmakers live, nor how they view the Qun, how Saarebas are treated, etc? Nor do we know whether all those under the Arigena and Ariqun, necessarily approve of or support the Arishok leading the Antaam to conquer lands? Certainly the Triumvirate decides whether or not that such actions are to be undertaken, but what say does the avergage Qunari bricklayer get if he desires to prevent the Arishok from going to war?

 

They might follow the Qun, certainly, but they've still got minds of their own. Sten and Tallis are willing to work with Mages after all, despite some like Arvaraad treating the very notion of an unchained bas as being abhorent and something that must instantly be put down (granted, it is his job), but even so, that shows that even despite being the Anti-Magic faction that they are, they still hold different views on mages.

 

Forgive me, but to say that all Qunari believe the same thing, wish to impose those beliefs on others and are prepared do so at knifepoint, is kind of bigoted, no? It's certainly no different than the Chantry's Exalted Marches against the Dalish "heathens" and their desire to spread the Chant of Light to the four corners of the world to save everyone's "souls" and bring back the Maker?

 

Exactly how are those things any different?

 

To spite the Qunari? are you serious? You'd use the list to deprive the Qunari of intel for their next planned invasion, which btw with that intel more people will likely die with the dragging on of the war. But no yeah don't want to get my hands dirty......
Yeah right, Hawke can stand by and watch as Meredith impales his sister but no way would he do something as evil (lol) as take that list and use it.....

 

Except that even if we assume that there are more spies on that list than defectors, it's not like the people of Thedas are even hiding that information well anyway? There are spies everywhere from every faction, doing exactly the same thing yet no-one seems to lose any sleep over them? What makes the Qunari so evil for doing the same? Are you saying that before Orlais invaded Ferelden, their were no spies anywhere?

 

And even if Hawke doesn't take the list, they do inform the Chantry that their are Qunari spies spread throughout Thedas. No-one believes them.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Yeah why i shouldn't use list to kill every qunari spy i mean it isn't that qunari are dangerous or something if you don't want convernt right? 

That was most retarded protagonist moment i saw in video game .

[Xilizhra]

I'm not saying that the Qunari are right and what they do to their mages isn't appalling, but don't the Templars don't treat Mages with just as severely just for having suffered an accident of birth that gave them superpowers?

Read my signature. There are few on these forums who hate the templars more than I. I want to bring them both down, but the qunari are even worse to their mages.

 

 

It's not fair to overly demonise the Qunari because of their way of life, even if you disagree with it, nor believe that all of them necessarily agree with it. Even Tallis is willing to admit that the Qunari aren't perfect, but they are trying to provide people with a better way of life. And it's unfair to think of them as militant conversion machines after all, since the only interaction most people have with them is via the Antaam, who are trained for war.

 

We have no idea how the masons, the shopkeepers or the bookmakers live, nor how they view the Qun, how Saarebas are treated, etc? Nor do we know whether all those under the Arigena and Ariqun, necessarily approve of or support the Arishok leading the Antaam to conquer lands? Certainly the Triumvirate decides whether or not that such actions are to be undertaken, but what say does the avergage Qunari bricklayer get if he desires to prevent the Arishok from going to war?

 

They might follow the Qun, certainly, but they've still got minds of their own. Sten and Tallis are willing to work with Mages after all, despite some like Arvaraad treating the very notion of an unchained bas as being abhorent and something that must instantly be put down (granted, it is his job), but even so, that shows that even despite being the Anti-Magic faction that they are, they still hold different views on mages.

 

Forgive me, but to say that all Qunari believe the same thing, wish to impose those beliefs on others and are prepared do so at knifepoint, is kind of bigoted, no? It's certainly no different than the Chantry's Exalted Marches against the Dalish "heathens" and their desire to spread the Chant of Light to the four corners of the world to save everyone's "souls" and bring back the Maker?

 

Exactly how are those things any different?

The qunari see their society as a body, in which all parts act in harmony to achieve the goals of the whole. Is it truly bigoted to see them as they wish to be seen?

As an aside, the antaam doesn't convert people, it only kills. The priesthood is responsible for conversion.

 

 

Except that even if we assume that there are more spies on that list than defectors, it's not like the people of Thedas are even hiding that information well anyway? There are spies everywhere from every faction, doing exactly the same thing yet no-one seems to lose any sleep over them? What makes the Qunari so evil for doing the same? Are you saying that before Orlais invaded Ferelden, their were no spies anywhere?

 

And even if Hawke doesn't take the list, they do inform the Chantry that their are Qunari spies spread throughout Thedas. No-one believes them.

I'd wipe out Orlesian spies in the same way, but we don't have a list detailing their names and whereabouts.

[New Kid]

I think we should expect 'rivalry' dialogue, if it's applicable. I mean, if I play a circle mage/dalish first and Hawke supported the Templars, I would at least expect to be able to say: "F**k you buddy!".

[TTTX]

Just to add to his but isn't it implied that Corypheus' seals prevent anyone from leaving the prison as well? Unless of course you wish to be trapped down in that prison until the seals expire.

 

Edit:

I agree with this wholeheartedly. I like Hawke as a character and it's ridiculous to assume that he/she is could have helped prevent the numerous problems that were occurring in Kirkwall.

I don't know, Hawke could have done more instead of mostly nothing when it came to dealing with the Qunari, Pretice, Meredith and Orsino but for the most part Hawke seems to be inactive especially between timeskips, after all Hawke does have some tools (like Varric, Aveline, Isabella etc) at his/her disposal to gather the necessary infomation on dealing with the various factions and he could also hire a couple of crows to kill some of them, but instead Hawke apparently does nothing, until asked to do so or the problem is at his/her very doorstep. 

 

After all some of these problems aren't exactly small, some of them threatens the entire city one way or the other which means at least Hawke should at least have some interest in the problems (after all she/he lives in the city) and the very least have some sort of plan of some kind.

[Arakat]

yah, this is what i am talking about. 

 

Varric is a supporter of Hawke whether as a 100% friend or rival (and it is actually hard to get him to rival you 100%). so if Hawke is as anti-mage as possible (i say killing his sister is the most anti-mage thing that he can do. i mean he cannot even kill Carver even though he is a templar. Carver and Cullen will always side with you when fighting Meredith. But you can kill Bethany if you support the templars).

 

So imagine if you try to be pro-mage, i am just wondering what will be the dynamics. Will bioware hush hush (aka choices dont matter and there is a retcon) or give you an option to hunt him down and see what Varric will do. 

 

I doubt Cullen and Cassandra or even Leiliana will mind much. but Varric will.... 

 

I certainly hope there's some reactivity, although there is always the excuse of the Breach being such a great threat they'll put aside their disagreements or something. Now I'm actually tempted to make a zealous pro-Chantry/Templar Inquisitor to go with my power-hungry homicidal blood mage Hawke, and tbh I'll be slightly disappointed if no heads will roll at their meeting.

[SgtSteel91]

About the Tallis thing...

 

I think the Qunari can change and coexistence is possible, that's why I had my Hawke gain the Arishock's respect and helped Tallis save the lives of Qunari and non-Qunari alike.

[Drasanil]

I'm not saying that the Qunari are right and what they do to their mages isn't appalling, but don't the Templars don't treat Mages with just as severely just for having suffered an accident of birth that gave them superpowers?

 

You really haven't been paying attention to anything about the Qunari if you think the Templars are 'just as bad' to their mages.

 

 

Forgive me, but to say that all Qunari believe the same thing, wish to impose those beliefs on others and are prepared do so at knifepoint, is kind of bigoted, no? 

 

No. Especially when that is the entire point and mission statement of the Qun. Dissenters are either flee and become Tal Vashoth, are sent for reeducation or if that fails given zombie drugs. You toe the party line or the Qun will find another use for you. 

[Reptillius]

Actually. Anders is not all hot air for the first 6 years of the game. When you first meet him he's pretty much uninvolved and a healer of the poor and downtrodden. Occassionally sticking his neck out to help his fellow mages and he actually ramps up as time goes on. First in a non-violent manner and then getting increasingly violent about things.

 

 

And yes. We could easily get away with killing Petrice.  Shouldn't be hard.  Even if it was self defense we killed Templars in the middle of the Chantry.  That should put us firmly on Merideth's target list if anything is going to and it doesn't.  Not to mention it should put us on the Chantries hit list as well.  But we suffer no repercussions for what can be considered a very public crime.  Taking an aggressive and under handed route of killing Petrice in a dangerous part of town (at night as I recall) That she went to specifically to find somebody fairly underhanded with little to no protection is a cake walk in comparison. It's easy to shift all blame. Particularly when you consider the fact that corruption in the city guard is so bad in Act I that guards have an unfortunate habit of dying on certain patrol routes from time to time.

[Doominike]

Hawke could get away with killing anyone, s/he's by far the most powerful person (combat wise) in Kirkwall. You could technically have plowed through the Gallows and killed Meredith pretty much any time you wanted. But that would have messed up the pace, story, etc

[Master Warder Z_]

Hawke could get away with killing anyone, s/he's by far the most powerful person (combat wise) in Kirkwall. You could technically have plowed through the Gallows and killed Meredith pretty much any time you wanted. But that would have messed up the pace, story, etc

 

We will see if the actual Hawke lives up to the legend Varric made.

[TheEternalStudent]

We will see if the actual Hawke lives up to the legend Varric made.

Hawke is actually a shy, bookish accountant,that just got really mad with the Arishok and Meredith because they refused to pay their tabs on time.

[Master Warder Z_]

Hawke is actually a shy, bookish accountant,that just got really mad with the Arishok and Meredith because they refused to pay their tabs on time.

 

No but Varric plainly admits he is BS'sing about Hawke's exploits.

 

Hawke defeated Meredith and might have defeated the Arishok along with an Orlesian Duke and ancient Magister.

 

But the point remains; We don't have anything accurate to measure their skill by.

[TheEternalStudent]

No but Varric plainly admits he is BS'sing about Hawke's exploits.

 

Hawke defeated Meredith and might have defeated the Arishok along with an Orlesian Duke and ancient Magister.

 

But the point remains; We don't have anything accurate to measure their skill by.

This is how I explain much of the dumb in DA2. It's just Varric's story, so all of a sudden like, 3 dozen guys popped out of nowhere, and Hawke was all like 'Swish' and Fenris was like SMASH! and Bethany was all like BOOM! Then they went down another alley, and it happened again, only there were even more bandits!

[Niox D Caledonia]

I'm not sure how killing Anders could be seen as explicitly anti-mage. I always do it and I view it as something more like ... justice. To me, no matter what my views are or what side I'm playing this time, Anders always goes too far in blowing up the Chantry.

 

But how you choose to play things is up to you.

 

We can only wait and see what kind of latitude the options the writers give us allow.

my thought exactly, in the immortal words of Lelouch

"The Only Ones who should kill are those who are prepared to be Killed"

so in my opinion Anders deserves a knife in the back regardless of whose side u are on

[Doominike]

Except that s/he did actually defeat all those things. A Primordial Rock Wraith, a High Dragon, the #1 best warrior of all qunari (possibly along with all the other qunari in the room), the Duke who was also a very skilled Chevalier and riding a huge wyvern, a Knight Commander super-boosted by red lyrium, a blood magic boosted First Enchanter, one of the Ancient Tevinter Magisters.

 

With less flashy moves and probably less mooks around but s/he still did kill all those powerful opponents. Like I said before, think what you will of Hawke, s/he was a world-class badass

[LOLandStuff]

Wherever Hawke goes, disaster follows.

Hawke just happens to be passing by the peace gathering and then BLAM the sky tears itself and demons everywhere.

[Master Warder Z_]

Ugh Code Geass *vomits in the corner*

[TheEternalStudent]

Except that s/he did actually defeat all those things. A Primordial Rock Wraith, a High Dragon, the #1 best warrior of all qunari (possibly along with all the other qunari in the room), the Duke who was also a very skilled Chevalier and riding a huge wyvern, a Knight Commander super-boosted by red lyrium, a blood magic boosted First Enchanter, one of the Ancient Tevinter Magisters.

 

With less flashy moves and probably less mooks around but s/he still did kill all those powerful opponents. Like I said before, think what you will of Hawke, s/he was a world-class badass

The only confirmed events would be things people other than Varric have attested to.
Hawke went into the deep roadsm found an idol of red lyrium
Hawke came back unable sans a sibling (Circle/Templar/Warden/Dead)
Hawke fought the Arishok, and became Champion
Hawke fought Orsino and Meredith
Hawke Did something in the Vinmark mountains involving the Wardens (Legacy)
Hawke could have had something to do with nearly starting a war with the Qunari (MotA)

I'm not doubting the other things, but that's all we have with more than Varric as a source.

[Master Warder Z_]

Except that s/he did actually defeat all those things.

 

You cannot measure skill alone by feats.

 

Hawke possibly or did defeat some impressive opponents but that does not make them less skilled then Hawke.

 

For example.

 

An ancient Magister with decades of experience was defeated by a former Fereldan soldier who had more or less been fighting for about eight years assuming you do Legacy in act 3.

 

Hawke in my opinion is in all likelihood fairly skilled but not a world ending torment like Varric made them out to be.

[KaiserShep]

I don't really take the whole DA2-was-probably-an-exaggeration bit seriously at all. If it was, then there was no point in showing anything in the game at all. Besides, the game makes very clear distinctions between Varric's tall tale and showing an account of what actually went on with both the prologue and investigating Bartrand's estate. This sort of thing is a kind of plot device that should be shown at the game's conclusion to wrap up the narrative, not something that you just casually toss into a sequel.

 

Unless Inquisition somehow reveals that the events we saw in-game never happened as shown, then I must conclude that they certainly did.

[Doominike]

Varric was in the Expedition, he was in the fight against the Rock Wraith. You can't dismiss stuff by saying "oh s/he only fought those, nothing prooves s/he actually killed them" except all those opponents aren't there anymore. Hawke fought the Arishok, the Arishok died, what do you think "really happened" ? Hawke lost the duel, Meredith actual finished him off and then named Hawke the Champion anyway ?

[KaiserShep]

An ancient Magister with decades of experience was defeated by a former Fereldan soldier who had more or less been fighting for about eight years assuming you do Legacy in act 3.

 

The Warden's tale is even taller than this. I mean, think about it. My human noble was a young woman who was never in any battles, and suddenly she's carving a path through Ferelden over countless enemy soldiers, malevolent maleficarum, werewolves, dragons, darkspawn and demons within the course of a year. As icing on the cake, she even beat the Hero of River Dane, a seasoned warrior who fought off the motherlovin' Orlesians in single combat.

[Master Warder Z_]

The Warden's tale is even taller than this. I mean, think about it. My human noble was a young woman who was never in any battles, and suddenly she's carving a path through Ferelden over countless enemy soldiers, malevolent maleficarum, werewolves, dragons, darkspawn and demons within the course of a year.

 

Indeed; and i find it just as ridiculous i assure you.

 

Indeed i find it generally annoying in most formats to be honest.

 

I mean what's the point of raising these opponents upwards, giving them experiences, back story, abilities and skill if it ultimately doesn't mean anything without a PC tag?

 

Though admittedly some of those battles in origins were relatively hard fought but the point remains; At least earlier bioware productions tended to have opponents more or less on the PC's skill level, they grew in experience and ability as the PC did.

 

I mean Cory in act one is akin to Darth Malak fighting Revan on Taris.

[Hazegurl]

Varric very well might just try murdering you. He spent 10 years with the man/woman.

If that happens prepare for all the Varric fans to rage about other players choosing to off him in their game.