2341 réponses à ce sujet

[Daerog]

Ah, I see.

 

Ya, the whole thing was messed up.

[In Exile]

Ah, I see.

 

Ya, the whole thing was messed up.

 

Loghain made the right call bugging out, he just had a really bad plan. 

 

To get this back on-topic, I hope that if Gaspard is meant to be a tactically brilliant military leader, we see his plans match-up with the hype. 

[HK-90210]

For Thedas? Perhaps. The question was more geared towards Ferelden. We know very, very little about the other Blights. That help could have been anything.

 

We know more than you think. Orlais was the primary contributor of forces during the early years of the Second Blight, and about 1/3rd of the army that ended the Third. The barbarian ancestors of Orlais, under the rule of Teventer, also fought during the First Blight. It's only been the Fourth Blight where Orlais has shown a complete unwillingness to contribute more than a token force to fight the Darkspawn outside of their own lands. Scratch on them. Still sent more than Tevinter or Ferelden, though.

 

But enough about Orlais in general, let's talk a little more about Celene. Mostly about how pretty much every decision she made in Masked Empire didn't work out as she planned/hoped.

 

Give Gaspard this: His plan to bait Celene into attacking the elves at Halmshiral? For the most part, that went off without a hitch. Had Celene been captured or killed, it would have made for a very short civil war.

 

But try as I might, I can't think of a single thing Celene did that worked out that well. She avoids a duel with the Ferelden Ambassador, ends up offending the chevaliers. She tries to show her strength as queen against the elves, ends up getting her army slaughtered. She kills her female elven lover's family and her entire household staff to become an Empress that can lead Orlais into a new age of peace and enlightenment, ends up having said lover betray her at the most crucial of moments in the most crucial of ways over such a brutal act, and is now *this* close to losing her throne to an Anti-Elf, Anti-Ferelden warmonger with more military aptitude than she could ever hope to have, and a cunning mind to boot.

 

Based on the facts stated in the above paragraph, I submit to you that Celene sucks as an Empress. Nothing she does works out. Go Gaspard.

[In Exile]

We know more than you think. Orlais was the primary contributor of forces during the early years of the Second Blight, and about 1/3rd of the army that ended the Third. The barbarian ancestors of Orlais, under the rule of Teventer, also fought during the First Blight. It's only been the Fourth Blight where Orlais has shown a complete unwillingness to contribute more than a token force to fight the Darkspawn outside of their own lands. Scratch on them. Still sent more than Tevinter or Ferelden, though.

 

But enough about Orlais in general, let's talk a little more about Celene. Mostly about how pretty much every decision she made in Masked Empire didn't work out as she planned/hoped.

 

Give Gaspard this: His plan to bait Celene into attacking the elves at Halmshiral? For the most part, that went off without a hitch. Had Celene been captured or killed, it would have made for a very short civil war.

 

But try as I might, I can't think of a single thing Celene did that worked out that well. She avoids a duel with the Ferelden Ambassador, ends up offending the chevaliers. She tries to show her strength as queen against the elves, ends up getting her army slaughtered. She kills her female elven lover's family and her entire household staff to become an Empress that can lead Orlais into a new age of peace and enlightenment, ends up having said lover betray her at the most crucial of moments in the most crucial of ways over such a brutal act, and is now *this* close to losing her throne to an Anti-Elf, Anti-Ferelden warmonger with more military aptitude than she could ever hope to have, and a cunning mind to boot.

 

Based on the facts stated in the above paragraph, I submit to you that Celene sucks as an Empress. Nothing she does works out. Go Gaspard.

 

Even if you're right, the alternative is still Gaspard. 

[HK-90210]

Even if you're right, the alternative is still Gaspard. 

 

If I were non-elf Orlesian, and had the option to vote, I'd take Gaspard any day. Harsh, honest bigotry over incompetence, please.

 

If I were an Orlesian elf, I'd join Briala. May Orlais burn to the ground. I want the Dales back.

 

If I weren't Orlesian, I'd say let them fight it out for as long and brutally as possible. The more weakened Orlais is at the end of it, the safer I'll be. It's every country for itself. *Breach opens*......................HELP ME, ORLAIS!!!!!!!

[pengwin21]

The Inquisitors are all non-Orlesians so...eh. Orlais seems to be an ally of the Free Marches, though I doubt dwarven, qunari, or especially elven Inquisitors will care much about that.

[Kieran G.]

The Inquisitors are all non-Orlesians so...eh. Orlais seems to be an ally of the Free Marches, though I doubt dwarven, qunari, or especially elven Inquisitors will care much about that.

Depends on the City State. not every city in the Free Marches are that friendly with Orlais considering the Occupation and Exalted marches which ravished their lands.

[TTTX]

And lets not forget that Orlais was the only nation even willing to lift a finger to help Ferelden when it was being ravaged by the darkspawn. 

Orlais "help" would have been an invasion after the blight was over as they have done so in the past. They actually sent way more soldiers, then Loghian and Calian was told by empress Celen.

[Augustei]

Yeah, besides providing a solid portion of the armed forces during the 1st, 2nd and 3rd Blights, holding the line against Tevinter and its rampant blood-magic, and freeing Antiva, Kirkwall and Rivain from the tyranny of the Qun, what has Orlais EVER done for Thedas?

 

And lets not forget that Orlais was the only nation even willing to lift a finger to help Ferelden when it was being ravaged by the darkspawn. The Free Marches were turning refugees away, while Nevarra, Antiva and Rivain had little to no reaction beyond, "Oh, a Blight happened?". Ferelden(Well, Loghain, mostly) was too hateful, proud and scarred to accept even token help from anyone, not even the Grey Wardens. Had it not been for the Warden, the entire nation would have fallen to the point where Orlais would have had no choice but to secure their own borders and leave the birthplace of Andraste to rot. I love Ferelden and all. I truly do. And Anora is hands down my favorite monarch we've seen so far. But Loghain was an idiot, and Ferelden was an idiot to let him take control. He had some valid reasons in his own mind, but by the time the Landsmeet occurs, the man had no plan beyond "Everyone should get behind me, cause I'm the ONLY one who can do this." And lo and behold, he couldn't.

 

And tell me this: Why is Celene courting Cailan a slight on Orlais? Sounds like Cailan was the one worth criticizing in that case. Celene was making a legitimate power play, and Cailan was eating it up. It's the one play I respect Celene for making, and one in a series of Cailan's blunders.

 

To be clear, I am NOT saying that Orlais has been all good. It's record against the elves sucks. It's invasion and occupation of Ferelden was unjust and tyrannical. But to say that it has brought "nothing but harm and misery" is incredibly ignorant of Thedosian history. I'm constantly amazed at all the people willing to criticize Orlais, but whenever the Qunari decide to invade again, or Tevinter decides that they deserve to conquer Nevarra, or the Darkspawn show their ugly faces in the Free Marches again, the very FIRST nation people are going to look to is still going to be Orlais. And there is NO way that the Inquisitor will be able to close the Breach without at least a solid portion of the Olesian military behind him/her.

 

Man, I never realized just how much I liked Orlais until I typed this. Huh.

Dont forget building the trade powerhouse city that is Amaranthine, something dominating trade in the waking sea to the point that the Free Marches cities like Kirkwall are crapping themselves and turning to pirates for help.

Though as to Loghain he did have a plan, He was hiring mercenary companies and equipping the army with the funds from the Tevinter slavers, he had defeated the bannorn by the time the landsmeet was called, He planned to get the circle via promising them more rights with Uldred.. Something he almost suceeded in and would have if not for Wynne.
And ofc he sent ambassadors to Orzammar to request aid but they were denied entry.

He simply didn't trust the wardens since most of them were Orlesian and they have a history of advocating Orlesian interests (Spreading the chantry to the north and kissing Drakons feet after he saved them during the second blight) Plus they recieve more stipends and general benefits from the crown in Orlais than anywhere else.

And as for his not trusting Orlais, well they did kind of conquer Nevarra last time they helped someone out during a blight, and he didn't believe it was a true blight

[Kieran G.]

Dont forget building the trade powerhouse city that is Amaranthine, something dominating trade in the waking sea to the point that the Free Marches cities like Kirkwall are crapping themselves and turning to pirates for help.

Though as to Loghain he did have a plan, He was hiring mercenary companies and equipping the army with the funds from the Tevinter slavers, he had defeated the bannorn by the time the landsmeet was called, He planned to get the circle via promising them more rights with Uldred.. Something he almost suceeded in and would have if not for Wynne.
And ofc he sent ambassadors to Orzammar to request aid but they were denied entry.

He simply didn't trust the wardens since most of them were Orlesian and they have a history of advocating Orlesian interests (Spreading the chantry to the north and kissing Drakons feet after he saved them during the second blight) Plus they recieve more stipends and general benefits from the crown in Orlais than anywhere else.

And as for his not trusting Orlais, well they did kind of conquer Nevarra last time they helped someone out during a blight, and he didn't believe it was a true blight

Not to butt in but do you believe Nevarra was better off without Orlais help? yeah they were conquered and all, but they were also saved from a completely and absolute extinction of their people.

 

Also i know the joke you were trying to pull with Uldred but it wouldn't have worked at all since a right of annulment was being sent for and that would mean no mage's would be alive to help Loghain, and he didn't defeat the Bannorn the whole point of the Landsmeet was to stop the fighting because it was still going on. 

[TTTX]

Not to butt in but do you believe Nevarra was better off without Orlais help? yeah they were conquered and all, but they were also saved from a completely and absolute extinction of their people.

 

Also i know the joke you were trying to pull with Uldred but it wouldn't have worked at all since a right of annulment was being sent for and that would mean no mage's would be alive to help Loghain, and he didn't defeat the Bannorn the whole point of the Landsmeet was to stop the fighting because it was still going on. 

At least Orlais can be kicked out as that has been many times over the course of Thedas's history.

 

I think he meant before the right was called, we have learned that Uldred did almost succeed in getting the circle on Loghain's side had Wynne not opened her big mouth which then caused the whole disaster in the circle and the right of the annulment.

[Kieran G.]

At least Orlais can be kicked out as that has been many times over the course of Thedas's history.

 

I think he meant before the right was called, we have learned that Uldred did almost succeed in getting the circle on Loghain's side had Wynne not opened her big mouth which then caused the whole disaster in the circle and the right of the annulment.

OOOOOoooooooooooh yeah i remember that conversation about her being almost dead from ostagar and making it back to the circle and told everyone how Loghain betrayed the king. ok all cleared up.

[Augustei]

Not to butt in but do you believe Nevarra was better off without Orlais help? yeah they were conquered and all, but they were also saved from a completely and absolute extinction of their people.

 

Also i know the joke you were trying to pull with Uldred but it wouldn't have worked at all since a right of annulment was being sent for and that would mean no mage's would be alive to help Loghain, and he didn't defeat the Bannorn the whole point of the Landsmeet was to stop the fighting because it was still going on. 

Of course not, but still the precedent was established and I'm just pointing out thats why Loghain would have been paranoid. Plus he didn't believe it was a true blight since no Archdemon was yet sighted.
But he actually did have the Bannorn pretty much beat, there was no real opposition to him after he crushed the united banns at Winters Breath, thats why they kept saying he couldn't get the banns support now since they don't really have any forces left having been lost to the horde or Loghain

[JudgeOverdose]

I think that characters in Thedas exist in shades of gray -- similarly to human beings, in that perspective is key. It is impossible to hold a political office long-term without getting your proverbial hands dirty, and so a lot of the things that Celene did -- vile as they may be -- have a justification to them. When you look at Gaspard, there are things that he did that were also unappealing, but justifiable in a given perspective.

 

At the end of the day, it is up to us to decide who we favor -- for better or worse. I am interested to meet them both in game and hear what they have to say.

 

We'll see how all that goes before my choice is made.

[duckley]

Celene is the lesser of two evils IMO. It appears that she was using the current ( crap) system to at least try to move things in the right direction. She reminded me of Wynne in Asunder - trying to move things in the right direction, but in a staged way. The young are too impatient to wait for the world to turn slowly. Rash, catastrophic actions (like blowing up Chantries)  tend to have two consequences: they can be flashpoints for change or flashpoints for regression.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Celene is the lesser of two evils IMO. It appears that she was using the current ( crap) system to at least try to move things in the right direction. She reminded me of Wynne in Asunder - trying to move things in the right direction, but in a staged way. The young are too impatient to wait for the world to turn slowly. Rash, catastrophic actions (like blowing up Chantries)  tend to have two consequences: they can be flashpoints for change or flashpoints for regression.

Hardly clene will leave corrupted system with few irevelant reforms that no one will care about because corrupted system and irevelant because celene is too weak to put something revelant as she proved.Gaspard is better direction because guy may at least try do something with corruption and then we can start reforms.Of course it will take a lot time and someone who will start reforms after gaspard will die.   

[The Baconer]

Fighting for a noble cause and being a victim don't make you honorable. She wouldn't make claims to having honor I imagine

 

"Honor does not preclude tactics" is the dude's catchphrase. He seemed pretty chivalrous to me, cutting down an ally mid-fight do to his dishonorable tactics, as well as putting himself at great risk in order to save an enemy.

 

Honor, especially Orlesian honor, is a concept that holds no value, being readily manipulated or abandoned at the slightest inconvenience.

[Medhia_Nox]

Orlais needs stability and Gaspard is a stablizing force.  

It's nice that Celene wants reforms - but her ability to totally shoot those reforms in the foot the moment her power is threatened, coupled with her utter incompetence (allowing her power to be threatened to begin with) - makes her a totally unstabilizing force.

[raging_monkey]

Orlais needs stability and Gaspard is a stablizing force.  
It's nice that Celene wants reforms - but her ability to totally shoot those reforms in the foot the moment her power is threatened, coupled with her utter incompetence (allowing her power to be threatened to begin with) - makes her a totally unstabilizing force.

maybe a unstable force is the best force my friend and you missed my raging twice in th same year such a shame lol

[TTTX]

Orlais needs stability and Gaspard is a stablizing force.  

It's nice that Celene wants reforms - but her ability to totally shoot those reforms in the foot the moment her power is threatened, coupled with her utter incompetence (allowing her power to be threatened to begin with) - makes her a totally unstabilizing force.

It's actually his fault that Orlais is in a civil war right now and his stabilizing plan is at best short sighted.

 

Go to war with Ferelden and what will he do once that war is over?

[The King In The North]

i'm sick of people bashing Celene i would like to see how would y'all run a empire she was empress for 20 years so she was doing something right everyone's  talking about what she did to briala was wrong so again what would you have done she would have died so she killed a few elves so what she helped them to but  sorry to say the elves are never gonna be free or have a homeland get over it and gaspard is arrogant war thirsty bastard i will see him dead i swear it by old gods and the new Celene is the better choice i will make sure she keeps her throne and make sure she keep's with ferelden all who challenge me will burn 

[raging_monkey]

i'm sick of people bashing Celene i would like to see how would y'all run a empire she was empress for 20 years so she was doing something right everyone's  talking about what she did to briala was wrong so again what would you have done she would have died so she killed a few elves so what she helped them to but  sorry to say the elves are never gonna be free or have a homeland get over it and gaspard is arrogant war thirsty bastard i will see him dead i swear it by old gods and the new Celene is the better choice i will make sure she keeps her throne and make sure she keep's with ferelden all who challenge me will burn

love the passion my king lol

[FiveThreeTen]

Well Celene seems competent enough to have run an empire for 20 years (and no Briala wasn't the one pulling all the strings, adding to that she only came back when she was 20 according to the book; so Celene had already been ruling for minimum 6 years without her help).

 

But yeah I think everyone agree that marching on Halamshiral was pretty dumb.

 

On the subject of Cailan it's written she thought about it but ditched the idea because Cailan was already married. Doesn't mean she didn't keep on trying to manipulate Cailan though.

[TheKomandorShepard]

i'm sick of people bashing Celene i would like to see how would y'all run a empire she was empress for 20 years so she was doing something right everyone's  talking about what she did to briala was wrong so again what would you have done she would have died so she killed a few elves so what she helped them to but  sorry to say the elves are never gonna be free or have a homeland get over it and gaspard is arrogant war thirsty bastard i will see him dead i swear it by old gods and the new Celene is the better choice i will make sure she keeps her throne and make sure she keep's with ferelden all who challenge me will burn 

Being puppet ruler isn't very hard so for sure not worse than her.She is weak and can't control her peoples and they control her gaspard is stronger.I don't care about elves but as far i renember she killed 3000 of them because orlesian nobles disliked what she was doing and well hardly she helped more than she destroyed.Pretty much same for ferelden good luck with that she already proved she can't control nobles and nobles want war. 

[The King In The North]

Being puppet ruler isn't very hard so for sure not worse than her.She is weak and can't control her peoples and they control her gaspard is stronger.I don't care about elves but as far i renember she killed 3000 of them because orlesian nobles disliked what she was doing and well hardly she helped more than she destroyed.Pretty much same for ferelden good luck with that she already proved she can't control nobles and nobles want war. 

so how is she this so called puppet ???? kings and emperors are nothing without nobles she civilized the empire so what all this bad people are talking about the elves try to start a rebellion and got crushed serves them right