2341 réponses à ce sujet

[raging_monkey]

Lets go real world please the thread is already tense lol

[The Baconer]

The populace is already being punished. The question is, do you give a damn about this nameless, faceless "populace" in a fictional RPG that focuses on the key players? Not me.

 

Who do you think is going to spread the name "Herald of Andraste, savior of Orlais"? The more people I can get to abandon these fops and robber barons, the less I'll have to cut deals with the nobility.

[Aimi]

Who do you think is going to spread the name "Herald of Andraste, savior of Orlais"? The more people I can get to abandon these fops and robber barons, the less I'll have to cut deals with the nobility.

So...who runs the country then, if not the nobility?

[The Baconer]

So...who runs the country then, if not the nobility?

 

This is a question the people of Orlais will have to answer... once the crisis is over *cough*.

[In Exile]

@ComedicSociopath

It's not like we are ordering the execution or enslavement of every single innocent Orlesian. We just want the most docile, daft Orlesian fop on the throne so they won't be invading other countries for at least another decade.

Besides, they were quite content with playing the political game with Ferelden when they offered their 'help' during the Blight. I think turnabout is fair play. If refugees want to cross the Frostbacks or take ship to Amaranthine, I don't think my Queen will oppose that (as opposed to those scumbag Kirkwallers). But trying to fish for sympathy for their government who wanted to attack us even after the Blight ended will avail you not.

But a weak leader is precisely what - to strong neighbours - would encourage them to pursue a war against Orlais.

Not that it matters since the Qunari will wash over Thedas like a wave.

[Aimi]

This is a question the people of Orlais will have to answer... once the crisis is over *cough*.

Good luck with that.

For a plan geared toward helping the 'people of Orlais', it seems awfully likely to kill a lot of them, purely to install a different set of people as the nobility later.

[The Baconer]

Good luck with that.

For a plan geared toward helping the 'people of Orlais', it seems awfully likely to kill a lot of them, purely to install a different set of people as the nobility later.

 

I never said that. I said I'd rather not have to cut deals with the nobility. I wish the people of Orlais the best of luck with empowering their homeland, but these matters are not the Inquisition's mandate.

 

Now, my other character would not be so hasty. He'd very much involve himself in the process of choosing the new leaders (the new nobility), and which ones get to stay from the existing nobility. These individuals would of course be hand-picked for their cooperative nature as the Inquisition sinks its teeth into the various industries of Orlais.

[Aimi]

I never said that. I said I'd rather not have to cut deals with the nobility. I wish the people of Orlais the best of luck with empowering their homeland, but these matters are not the Inquisition's mandate.
 
Now, my other character would not be so hasty. He'd very much involve himself in the process of choosing the new leaders (the new nobility), and which ones get to stay from the existing nobility. These individuals would of course be hand-picked for their cooperative nature as the Inquisition sinks its teeth into the various industries of Orlais.

Ah. My bad. Good to know you're not pretending to have interests consonant with those of your putative temporary allies.

[Spectre Impersonator]

You scary me you know that.

 

Even in a fictional RPG I don't like to think of the people of an entire state as a nameless, faceless "populace" that's not as important as the key players. That logic has lead to crimes that arrange from the 2008 repression to several different acts of genocide. It's the logic that a corrupt CEO or a fascist dictator would have. And look, I know this is a video game and the fact is some characters are clearly more important then others, that still doesn't mean that I'm just going to ignore their plight, especially when they number in the tens of thousands. I'm person who will do every sidequest for every crying peasant whose cat has been caught in a tree, and I enjoy doing so. So, yeah, unless I'm committed to playing the pragmatist Inquisitor or the Assquistor, I'm definitely going to give a damn about the nameless NPC's, because to be honest if did exist in Thedas I would most likely be one of them.

 

Plus it's the right thing to do. And double plus you get a lot more exp that way. 

So I'm guessing you wouldn't go for my philosophy regarding the ending of Last Of Us, either. 

 

Spoiler

I was thrilled that Joel chose Ellie over the cure for a bunch of savages and idiots who didn't deserve it, as they had proven time and time again throughout the game. Screw the rest of the world. Go live with Uncle Tommy and Ellie in peace while they devour themselves.

[ComedicSociopathy]

So I'm guessing you wouldn't go for my philosophy regarding the ending of Last Of Us, either. 

 

Spoiler

I was thrilled that Joel chose Ellie over the cure for a bunch of savages and idiots who didn't deserve it, as they had proven time and time again throughout the game. Screw the rest of the world. Go live with Uncle Tommy and Ellie in peace while they devour themselves.

 

Different universe, different morals. 

[dogstar12]

Celene, She trying to change her country for the better. The other guy wants a war. As the wise green one once said  "war don't make one great" (Yoda not elder one in the game is he?)

[LostInReverie19]

However, as the story went along, she seemed to become more and more selfish and callous while becoming less and less smart. She walks right into a trap set by Gaspard, more a soldier than a player of the Game, and yet his skill in the Game is what maneuvers her into it. And she does this to prove her strength of will because of a PLAY??? Is she really so weak as to be humiliated into action by a little vague theater mockery? Briala's plan to assassinate the guilty noble would have still gone off perfectly well if she'd stayed in Val Royeaux where she belonged. So she burns the elven quarter of Halamshiral and arrests her lover for a task she authorized her to complete. Then she has her bodyguard cut down several of her own soldiers who fled the battle. She visits a Dalish clan and (along with her companions) leaves it a bloody ruin. She consorts with a demon. In the fight with the vaterral, she chooses self-preservation over protecting the elf she loves when Briala risked all for her numerous times. A badly wounded Gaspard easily disarms her in self-defense when she tries to stab him in cold blood. She threatens her champion Michel with death should she ever see him again, despite his saving her skin constantly. Worst of all, we discover Celene arranged the deaths of Briala's family (and possibly Briala herself if she hadn't hidden).

 

 

I agree with this so much! In the beginning, I was sympathetic to Celene. In the beginning, it seemed like she really cared about the elves and trying to make Orlais a better place, but by the end of the novel we see her for who she really is: a self-serving, callous, and hilariously incompetent player of the Game and leader. Needless to say, I think she's a terrible person. If my Inquisitors have the option, they will definitely try to depose her if she still remains on the throne. 

[dragonflight288]

People are free to choose who they will. It will not affect my gameplay or how I run through with various Inquisitors. Chances are I'll support both and Briala as well depending on how I'm roleplaying that particular Inquisitor. 

 

But for me personally, I'd rather prefer to keep the Inquisition out of it as much as humanly, dwarvenly, elvenly or kossithly possible since I don't like any of the potential leaders. Celene is a politician, and thereby her word cannot be counted on when it counts, and neither can she be counted on to stand up for what's right or for the little guys when the nobles throw a fit. 

 

But Gaspard would see tens of thousands of people suffer and die in wars, and his Chevalier code and honor would demand him to commit great atrocities. Also, Chevalier's tend to have a blind eye turned to them when it comes to how they treat the common man or woman, and elves are killed as part of a chevalier initiation rite. Gaspard may follow a code of honor and his word is his bond, but death follows him like a foul cloud. And he sees nothing wrong with it. 

 

Neither are ideal leaders to me personally. Again, with each playthrough, I'll likely support everyone I can, depending on how I roleplay each Inquisitor, and a sense of curiosity to see how it influences the game. 

[Daerog]

It's 9:42 Dragon... or whatever.

 

Neither of them are married (at this time, Gaspard was) and neither have children.

 

I am surprised a third contender hasn't popped up who is young or already has a family to establish a dynasty.

 

While I am leaning toward Gaspard, whoever states their successor first will immediately get a lot of points from me since I am a bit reluctant to establish a monarchy that will just be fought over again in the near future. This will be the thinking for my canon Inquisitor anyway, I'll probably have multiple playthroughs and choices as well.

[Spectre Impersonator]

For the record, this thread isn't so much a competition between Celene and Gaspard (though that's a likely choice that will be presented to us in DAI), it's just an analysis of Celene's arc throughout The Masked Empire and her failings as a ruler and a person. I suppose it does invite comparisons but just because Celene is a bad empress hardly means I think Gaspard is a great replacement.

[Wissenschaft 2.0]

It's 9:42 Dragon... or whatever.

 

Neither of them are married (at this time, Gaspard was) and neither have children.

 

I am surprised a third contender hasn't popped up who is young or already has a family to establish a dynasty.

 

While I am leaning toward Gaspard, whoever states their successor first will immediately get a lot of points from me since I am a bit reluctant to establish a monarchy that will just be fought over again in the near future. This will be the thinking for my canon Inquisitor anyway, I'll probably have multiple playthroughs and choices as well.

 

Theres been plenty of Monarchs who've died without leaving heirs. Not having an Heir is not a legit reason for treason and rebellion.

[Daerog]

Theres been plenty of Monarchs who've died without leaving heirs. Not having an Heir is not a legit reason for treason and rebellion.

 

I agree, and since Celene forfeited her reign to Gaspard in that duel, she should step aside and let Gaspard rule.

 

I'm just saying that as a third party coming into a civil war, I would prefer to not set up a monarchy that will be contested again in the near future and that they should name their successor to avoid it.

 

Monarchs who die without heirs and without naming successors cause problems for their nation and possibly cause civil war. So, whoever names their successor first, will get bonus points.

 

Monarchs with heirs do make things easier, though, and it would be best to name someone who has a family or is still young as successor to give the people hope for a more stable line of succession. Then, I could, if I wish, remove Celene and Gaspard and just install that third option... maybe. 

[Kieran G.]

Really i would put myself behind which ever king or emperor was more looking to create a strong enough empire to keep the Qunari out of thedas and the Darkspawn from reappearing.

 

And sadly in my opinion that's Celene. Unlike Gaspard who might be able to strengthen the military of Orlais, he would just leave thedas weaker because of his aggressive expanionist ways, so there would be no trust or any feelings to help eachother. But Celene already attempted to unite the South into one empire. so that's why i am On Celenes side. If Nevarra, Ferelden and Orlais were one empire. they would probably have one of the strongest armies in Thedasian history.

 

I doubt that will happen, but i just want to see a proactive leader who is actually looking to unite thedas, and actually create a golden age.

[Daerog]

Well, it is good to see people backing both sides.

[Mihura]

Theres been plenty of Monarchs who've died without leaving heirs. Not having an Heir is not a legit reason for treason and rebellion.

 

There are a lot of historical events, bloody ones at that because there was no clear line of succession or heirs. Even my country had some.

 

The point is even if there is no rebellion during the their reign, it is not gonna to be peaceful after they die. That is one of the problems that I have with Celene, she is short sighted when it comes to it.
Celene plans for the future of Orlais will end with her, marrying Gaspard even for puppet reasons would be the best solution, if he had bastard she could use that somehow.

 

Other solution is adopting a heir, like some did in Rome from noble houses or generals, although I really do not know how that works in Orlais.

[Arkey]

This is a fascinating topic and why I enjoyed TME so much. Orlais as a country has grown in such a way that politics and society has become homogenized (at least as far as the nobles are concerned) and as such this creates natural duality to every relationship.

 

I love both Celene and Gaspard. They are paragons of their culture and both want the same (relatively speaking) goals but walk different paths. Now, in so far as our Inquisition is involved, which would be the better leader? Well that depends on our needs and wants from Orlais. If we take, at minimum, the nations full backing at stopping the breach, then either would be more than suitable.

 

Gaspard is not entirely honorable (at least not as much as he believes he is) but he is a man that takes great pride in his perceived honor. His upbringing as a chevalier certainly made this take root but he is still a player of the Game and gives no inclination to be anything else. If he, in front of his subordinates, promised the inquisition something then I would not doubt he would follow through. But he can only be trusted in so far as the terms that have been drawn up. Sooner or later the pact/alliance will come to an end.

 

Celene would not betray us either however. Given in TME she commits several betrayals they are often calculated and designed with the singular purpose of ensuring her right to rule (success may vary). People who are worried she will betray the inquisition need to consider that if it is through our power that her throne is restored not only would she be indebted to us (possibility of betrayal still plausible) the entire foundation for the restoration of her throne would lay on the fact that the breach must be closed. She has show to take pleasure in being seen as a great ruler and therefore would see the incentive as being seen as the Empress that aided the Inquisition in closing the Fade Breach.

 

As the Inquisition is concerned either is fine. At least as far as the reasons for the Inquisition having been formed in the first placed. What the Inquisition becomes after the fact is another matter entirely.

 

I take a great deal of joy in wondering about the ramifications of my actions so this will be a difficult decision for me as well. I am curious to know if their marriage is still a plausible outcome. I am doubtful considering Gaspard's late wife was the sole reason Celene's parents died leading to her ascension at such a young age. But then again I never saw a lot of the possible landmeet outcomes either so we shall see.

 

No matter who you choose they are both incredibly complicated people that give you many reasons to love and hate them and your reasons for doing so can tell you as much about yourself as it does the characters.

[Tevinter Soldier]

Celene is naive and dangerously incompetent as a leader, who can't focus on the big thing's . Further more she is horribly untrustworthy a backstabber and it is only a matter of time before she finds she's made enemies of her own court.

 

I will ensure she continues to run Orlais. unless of course we can top both and have the entire fashion disaster collapse. 

[TK514]

Hmm.  For someone supposed to be a master of The Game, Celene did not live up to the hype, in my opinion.  Certainly, in one-on-one, small scale confrontations such as Gaspard vs Teagan, she does well.  But bigger picture?  Not so much.  Which makes me wonder if she's really the Master people claim, or does she get the credit for particularly adept servants and allies?  In most of their interactions, Briala seemed to be the one with a head on her shoulders.

 

The situation in Halamshiral, for example.  What possible reason would there be for Celene to abandon the running of her nation to ride off and personally deal with a minor rebellion in the slums of one city?  Does Orlais have no generals?  Certainly she could have said "General la Fleur, take your troops and burn the Halamshiral Alienage to the ground", made a big public show of sending them off, and shown she was tough on rebels, elven or otherwise, without ever having to leave Val Royeaux.  Problem solved.

 

Then there was her painful vacillation on the elven topic with Briala.  "Oh, I'm totally going to improve the lot of your people, and make them cool, and, uh...well, I mean, maybe.  Eventually definitely maybe.  You know, right after I blatantly use them as disposable scouts with the Eluvian network...but then certainly maybe.  If it's convenient.  And the nobles don't mind.  Hey, can we just pretend I didn't burn down an Alienage the other day?"  She was so obviously not going to keep her promises that even the thickest characters figured it out.  A real Master of The Game would have at least been able to lie convincingly.

 

Don't get me wrong.  She's been Empress a long time, and that suggests she couldn't be completely inept.  But was it a case of doing a lot of things right, or one of not doing too many things wrong?  It did get to the point of her top nobles breaking into armed rebellion, after all.

 

When it comes to the Inquisition, though, her past (in)competence is of only minor concern.  Neither contender to the Throne is incompetent enough that Orlais won't recover from the Breach, so stability will be restored.  For me, it will be more about who can offer what I need to save the world, and who is most likely to actually follow through with their promises.

[TheKomandorShepard]

chop

Celene won't betray us good one she would do that if nobles just started complain or just for power she isn't honest and trustworthy not even her lover could trust her.Pretty celene is marjolaine and attempt to trust such person is pretty much suicidal i would only do that if i was desperate and there wasn't any better alternatives but we have better gaspard who i could trust more than her but also proved that he is far more competent than she is .

[DarthLaxian]

I would say rather she is foolish and weak woman that tries to hide behind good intentions not mention that i wouldn't simple trust her as even her lover couldn't i prefer  Gaspard over her as ally because he is at least more trustworthy than she is and only problem with him i have that he will be dangerous for ferelden as he is competent and want to war with ferelden.  

 

Trust a traitor? - No way!

 

I will not trust either of them (and impose my will on them if they allow me...cease fighting or be left as demon fodder...can't have civil-war in the middle of the veil being on the verge of failing!)...him I will execute however (can't stand traitors...hey Loghain, how's being dead workin' out for ya?)...her?...I might not support her (I'll let her make her case of course...as to me it didn't sound like she was an idiot or total trash, she just grew up the wrong way, like many rich and pampered people, she lacks compassion (she isn't totally without it, but she does not have enough or show enough of it))

 

greetings LAX