2341 réponses à ce sujet

[TheKomandorShepard]

Trust a traitor? - No way!

 

I will not trust either of them (and impose my will on them if they allow me...cease fighting or be left as demon fodder...can't have civil-war in the middle of the veil being on the verge of failing!)...him I will execute however (can't stand traitors...hey Loghain, how's being dead workin' out for ya?)...her?...I might not support her (I'll let her make her case of course...as to me it didn't sound like she was an idiot or total trash, she just grew up the wrong way, like many rich and pampered people, she lacks compassion (she isn't totally without it, but she does not have enough or show enough of it))

 

greetings LAX

 

How Gaspard is a traitor? That he crushed corrupted and incompetent Celene in her own game?From what i remember he still is loyal to orlais but not to celene that can't handle situation as she proved. 

[dragonflight288]

How Gaspard is a traitor? That he crushed corrupted and incompetent Celene in her own game?From what i remember he still is loyal to orlais but not to celene that can't handle situation as she proved. 

 

He attacked and slaughtered the armed forces of his own country and tried to kill the leader of said country.

 

That constitutes treason. 

[Master Warder Z_]

He attacked and slaughtered the armed forces of his own country and tried to kill the leader of said country.

 

That constitutes treason. 

 

Indeed.

 

That said that's just politics for you.

 

Its how Celene got the throne to begin with.

[dragonflight288]

Indeed.

 

That said that's just politics for you.

 

Its how Celene got the throne to begin with.

 

"that's just politics" kills people who otherwise would not have been, and most of them do not deserve it.

 

That's why neither Gaspard nor Celene have my vote of confidence. 

[Master Warder Z_]

"that's just politics"

 

Its simply how the world runs.

 

in Thedas and our own reality.

 

Call the office whatever you wish: Viscount, King, President, Emperor, It doesn't matter.

 

If people wish to hold it bad enough, they will kill to be there.

[rigron]

All I know is that I will burn her on a stake if given the option.

[TheKomandorShepard]

He attacked and slaughtered the armed forces of his own country and tried to kill the leader of said country.

 

That constitutes treason. 

Nope he attacked celene forces (that of course were part of orlais) pretty much same as loghain did to some nobles or some nobles to loghain when both were forces of ferelden.Not to mention that leader was corrupted what can be seen as treason as well.   

[d1ta]

I chose the one that can be controlled by the Inquisition's firm iron grip. Be it Gaspard, Celene or Briala or maybe option D, E or F.

I'm picturing my Leliana will be uber busy during this particular time..

[Mihura]

Hmm.  For someone supposed to be a master of The Game, Celene did not live up to the hype, in my opinion.  Certainly, in one-on-one, small scale confrontations such as Gaspard vs Teagan, she does well.  But bigger picture?  Not so much.  Which makes me wonder if she's really the Master people claim, or does she get the credit for particularly adept servants and allies?  In most of their interactions, Briala seemed to be the one with a head on her shoulders.

 

The situation in Halamshiral, for example.  What possible reason would there be for Celene to abandon the running of her nation to ride off and personally deal with a minor rebellion in the slums of one city?  Does Orlais have no generals?  Certainly she could have said "General la Fleur, take your troops and burn the Halamshiral Alienage to the ground", made a big public show of sending them off, and shown she was tough on rebels, elven or otherwise, without ever having to leave Val Royeaux.  Problem solved.

 

Then there was her painful vacillation on the elven topic with Briala.  "Oh, I'm totally going to improve the lot of your people, and make them cool, and, uh...well, I mean, maybe.  Eventually definitely maybe.  You know, right after I blatantly use them as disposable scouts with the Eluvian network...but then certainly maybe.  If it's convenient.  And the nobles don't mind.  Hey, can we just pretend I didn't burn down an Alienage the other day?"  She was so obviously not going to keep her promises that even the thickest characters figured it out.  A real Master of The Game would have at least been able to lie convincingly.

 

Don't get me wrong.  She's been Empress a long time, and that suggests she couldn't be completely inept.  But was it a case of doing a lot of things right, or one of not doing too many things wrong?  It did get to the point of her top nobles breaking into armed rebellion, after all.

 

When it comes to the Inquisition, though, her past (in)competence is of only minor concern.  Neither contender to the Throne is incompetent enough that Orlais won't recover from the Breach, so stability will be restored.  For me, it will be more about who can offer what I need to save the world, and who is most likely to actually follow through with their promises.

 

Actually the idea of great leaders doing their home work alone is mostly a fictional one. Celene and Briala were a great team and it worked, after a fashion. It is when they are separated that things begging to go wrong.

The situation in Halamshiral was not about killing the elven people in the most bloody and efficient way, actually the original plan was to minimize that.
Celene needed to be there at that time because she supported the social escalation of the elves, which pair up with the rumor and the play, it was a social catastrophe. Celene power comes from her image, control over nobles and social life on court.

 

When her power is at risk, we know how that ends. Blood of elves runs on the streets. 

[Zana]

Celene vs Gaspard aside, anyone else find it amusing that Loghain was probably right in thinking Celine was just trying to take over Ferelden using marriage to Cailan?  With the way her personality is portrayed, it really is a hard thing to imagine that being an equal marriage.

 

Back to the topic though...the comparison between Orzammar and Orlais is not that far fetched.  Both have very established political systems where ruler has to rely on the nobles to accomplish what they want.  Both require the ruler to have some critical mass of support before changes can be enacted, and much higher amount of support before drastic changes to upset the balance of power can be enacted.  Problem is that currently in Orlais neither Celene nor Gaspard have enough support to enact drastic changes (ie executing all opposing nobles, Bhelen style).  So both have to work within the system.  This is very similar to Orzammar before Warden.  Simply put, neither Celene nor Gaspard can accomplish what they want on their own.  Even if one of them to disappear, the remaining will not have enough support to break the system, or quickly enact drastic policy change.  A drastic shift of power needs to occur for reforms to take place.  I fully expect Inquisitor to be the one capable of providing this shift of power one way or another.

 

The question is then, what will they do if they had absolute power.  Obviously clean up the opposing faction (either by simple executions, or by more refined intrigue).  However past that, they will likely have enough support that dislodging them will be nearly impossible by outside force.  So if you are supporting Celene, you might end up with reforms being pushed through.  Gaspard will likely end up with his plan of unification by war.  If my analysis is correct (it could be horribly wrong!), I'd probably support Celene.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Actually the idea of great leaders doing their home work alone is mostly a fictional one. Celene and Briala were a great team and it worked, after a fashion. It is when they are separated that things begging to go wrong.

The situation in Halamshiral was not about killing the elven people in the most bloody and efficient way, actually the original plan was to minimize that.
Celene needed to be there at that time because she supported the social escalation of the elves, which pair up with the rumor and the play, it was a social catastrophe. Celene power comes from her image, control over nobles and social life on court.

 

When her power is at risk, we know how that ends. Blood of elves runs on the streets. 

good one

[Mihura]

good one

 

Sigh, why do you think Celene reign was a peaceful one till TMI? Nobles without wars and conquering monarchs are rather... troublesome. I suggest you read some history.

[Darkly Tranquil]

Given that Celene's only true allegiance was to Celene, it seems unrealistic to call her a traitor. Devious, manipulative, cowardly, and inept, perhaps, but not traitorous; that would have required her to have been loyal to something other than herself. Celene is nothing if not consistent in her self-interest.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Sigh, why do you think Celene reign was a peaceful one till TMI? Nobles without wars and conquering monarchs are rather... troublesome. I suggest you read some history.

Being puppet ruler isn't much trouble especially if you have smarter people at your side (alistair ).Pretty much nobles are in control not her in that relationship.

[Mihura]

Being puppet ruler isn't much trouble especially if you have smarter peoples at your side (alistair ).Pretty nobles are in control not her in that relationship.

 

Sure that is why one of the most powerful nobles in Orlais needed the help of Gaspard, a military expert.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Sure that is why one of the most powerful nobles in Orlais needed the help of Gaspard, a military expert.

And what does that have to do with that? 

[HK-90210]

It's simple fact that Gaspard was a traitor to Celene. Since Celene was and is still the LAWFUL ruler of Orlais, that makes Gaspard guilty of treason, ergo he is a traitor. He will be so until he holds the throne. After which, anyone who continues to conspire against him will be a traitor themselves. The term traitor always applies to those who are in rebellion against their lawful ruler, which Gaspard is.

 

I do not hold that this is a bad thing to call Gaspard a traitor. Historically speaking, committing treason is fine and dandy, as long as you win. I think Benedict Arnold would be one of the heroes of the American Rebellion of 1776 had the British won. But they didn't. Sucked to be him living in England, that's for sure.

 

I say this as a firm supporter of Gaspard. He's a traitor. You know that at some point the man swore an oath to obey Celene as Empress or Orlais. He has violated that oath.

[enson8502]

I don't know, I don't care. I just know that I love powerful and beautiful Queens.

[Daerog]

It's simple fact that Gaspard was a traitor to Celene. Since Celene was and is still the LAWFUL ruler of Orlais, that makes Gaspard guilty of treason, ergo he is a traitor. He will be so until he holds the throne. After which, anyone who continues to conspire against him will be a traitor themselves. The term traitor always applies to those who are in rebellion against their lawful ruler, which Gaspard is.

 

I do not hold that this is a bad thing to call Gaspard a traitor. Historically speaking, committing treason is fine and dandy, as long as you win. I think Benedict Arnold would be one of the heroes of the American Rebellion of 1776 had the British won. But they didn't. Sucked to be him living in England, that's for sure.

 

I say this as a firm supporter of Gaspard. He's a traitor. You know that at some point the man swore an oath to obey Celene as Empress or Orlais. He has violated that oath.

 

Yep, one can be both a patriot and a traitor.

 

Just look at Loghain.

 

Spoiler

Although, they did duel for the throne and technically Gaspard won, so right now Gaspard is the rightful emperor, that fact is just not known publically in Orlais at this time... and I think it won't be brought up anyway in game...

[TheKomandorShepard]

It all depends whether he swore serve orlais or empress of course from lawful point of view anyone can be traitor if it breaks law what pretty much would mean almost every noble in orlais would be traitor.

[Spectre Impersonator]

All this "rightful" heir/claimant/monarch business bores me as much in Thedas as it does in Westeros and there are a bunch of excellent quotes about the futility of determining "right" and it's significance, like this one:

 

"Tell me, what right did my brother Robert ever have to the Iron Throne? Oh, there was talk of the blood ties between Baratheon and Targaryan, of weddings a hundred years past, of second sons and elder daughters. No one but the maesters care about any of it. Robert won the throne with his warhammer." -Renly Baratheon

 

You can say you're the rightful king or empress or whatever as much as you want but that doesn't make you 1.) the best for the job, or 2.) the one actually on the throne. As far as I'm concerned, if you take it, it's rightfully yours. The ruler makes the laws.

[Incantrix]

Gaspard is nothing but a war mongering expansionist pig who will cause ruin to Orlais. He'll keep Orlais away from enlightenment which causes social change (+1 for elves and Mages). And we all know what happened to Rome when it began expanding "too much". I fear Gaspard will do exactly that, since he knows nothing else but military power and imperialism.

 

And he's a chevalier. A band of rich and noble thugs with fancy swordsmanship. Ha, him ruling Orlais would be like the Mafia owning the white house. No thanks. 

[raging_monkey]

All this "rightful" heir/claimant/monarch business bores me as much in Thedas as it does in Westeros and there are a bunch of excellent quotes about the futility of determining "right" and it's significance, like this one:
 
"Tell me, what right did my brother Robert ever have to the Iron Throne? Oh, there was talk of the blood ties between Baratheon and Targaryan, of weddings a hundred years past, of second sons and elder daughters. No one but the maesters care about any of it. Robert won the throne with his warhammer." -Renly Baratheon
 
You can say you're the rightful king or empress or whatever as much as you want but that doesn't make you 1.) the best for the job, or 2.) the one actually on the throne. As far as I'm concerned, if you take it, it's rightfully yours. The ruler makes the laws.

darwinism at its best i approve

[Aimi]

All this "rightful" heir/claimant/monarch business bores me as much in Thedas as it does in Westeros and there are a bunch of excellent quotes about the futility of determining "right" and it's significance, like this one:
 
"Tell me, what right did my brother Robert ever have to the Iron Throne? Oh, there was talk of the blood ties between Baratheon and Targaryan, of weddings a hundred years past, of second sons and elder daughters. No one but the maesters care about any of it. Robert won the throne with his warhammer." -Renly Baratheon
 
You can say you're the rightful king or empress or whatever as much as you want but that doesn't make you 1.) the best for the job, or 2.) the one actually on the throne. As far as I'm concerned, if you take it, it's rightfully yours. The ruler makes the laws.

[lrdrskillz]

Im really torn between the Celene and Gaspard... I mean Celene is a lying, treacherous, conniving, power hungry, backstabbing, sneaky, double-crossing, heartless, worthless example of a human being, BUT she is probably better for the country, and more progressive for the treatment of elves.

Gaspard is honorable, honest, and, i'll even begrudging even say kinda heroic. BUT he will drive the country into war, and is racist against the elves... It's like choosing between a douche and a turd. (high five for who ever gets the douche and turd reference )