2341 réponses à ce sujet

[MACharlie1]

Im really torn between the Celene and Gaspard... I mean Celene is a lying, treacherous, conniving, power hungry, backstabbing, sneaky, double-crossing, heartless, worthless example of a human being, BUT she is probably better for the country, and more progressive for the treatment of elves.

Gaspard is honorable, honest, and, i'll even begrudging even say kinda heroic. BUT he will drive the country into war, and is racist against the elves... It's like choosing between a douche and a turd. (high five for who ever gets the douche and turd reference ) 

I.e. Bhelen and Harrowmont. 

[Dark Helmet]

I.e. Bhelen and Harrowmont. 

 

Well it would be if Bhelen/Harrowmont was even a choice.

 

Bhelen is clearly the superior candidate.

[MACharlie1]

Well it would be if Bhelen/Harrowmont was even a choice.

 

Bhelen is clearly the superior candidate.

But at the same time he's generally not a very nice guy. I mean with the whole murdering his father and brother thing...

[Warden Commander Aeducan]

But at the same time he's generally not a very nice guy. I mean with the whole murdering his father and brother thing...

Politics at it's finest.

 

There is no politician that never get their hands dirty. Every politician will do everything to ensure their success and protect their own power. While Harrowmont is more forgiving and honorable compared to Bhelen, he support power abusive system and oppress the lesser caste. I don't think he's a shining example of pure good person, in the end when you have to choose you'd pretty much choose who you thought was best for Orzammar, or who can offer greater help to defeat the Blight.

 

Back in topic, Both Celene and Gaspard are great characters, but they both are ruthless decisive in their own way, both are terrible people

[Dark Helmet]

But at the same time he's generally not a very nice guy.

 

You don't want "Nice Guys" for kings.

 

Especially when your society is under constant threat from Darkspawn.

[Shahadem]

Well it would be if Bhelen/Harrowmont was even a choice.

 

Bhelen is clearly the superior candidate.

 

Killing their entire caste was the superior choice.

 

I also think Merlin would have made a much better leader than Arthur. But, and this was wonderfully introduced by Quest for the Holy Grail, introducing a democratic system and then supporting it while it built up strong institutions would have been the best choice of all.

[Han Shot First]

Celene, most likely.

 

If forced to choose between the two, Gaspard's head will probably end up decorating a spike.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Gaspard is competent and strong leader like behlen and celene in that matter is harrowmont.

[GrinningRogue]

Celene feels like Orlais personified, with all the good and the bad that comes with it.Gaspard is well, Orlesian and Chevalier.

One is a well-meaning backstabbing snake, the other is a straightforward (as much as an Orlesian can be, given The Game) power hungry warmonger. I don't like the both of them, but if I have to choose, I'll choose whomever values peace. In this case Celene.

[HK-90210]

Spoiler

Although, they did duel for the throne and technically Gaspard won, so right now Gaspard is the rightful emperor, that fact is just not known publically in Orlais at this time... and I think it won't be brought up anyway in game...

 

.......good point, forgot about that. Technically, this makes Celence a traitor, too. Though I would argue that since Gaspard has not been crowned, and the duel lacks any witness that both sides would believe, there's no way that the duel remains valid. In which case, the throne is still Celene. By law, anyway.

 

All this "rightful" heir/claimant/monarch business bores me as much in Thedas as it does in Westeros and there are a bunch of excellent quotes about the futility of determining "right" and it's significance, like this one:

 

"Tell me, what right did my brother Robert ever have to the Iron Throne? Oh, there was talk of the blood ties between Baratheon and Targaryan, of weddings a hundred years past, of second sons and elder daughters. No one but the maesters care about any of it. Robert won the throne with his warhammer." -Renly Baratheon

 

You can say you're the rightful king or empress or whatever as much as you want but that doesn't make you 1.) the best for the job, or 2.) the one actually on the throne. As far as I'm concerned, if you take it, it's rightfully yours. The ruler makes the laws.

 

Of course they do. And right now, Celene is the lawful ruler. And nobles DO care about the laws. The laws are all they have to protect themselves from bigger, more powerful or more connected nobles. The only way lawful succession can be defied in an advanced society is if you have the power, either politically or militarily, to do so. Otherwise, the nobles and the commoners default back to what the law says. And if the law says a six-month-old infant is the rightful Emperor of Orlais, and no noble has the clout to make it otherwise, then that baby is the emperor. Of course, he/she will need a good protector or two to prevent those deadly 'illnesses' that strike poor children as they lay in their cribs.....

 

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I think you underestimate the importance of succession law in a fuedal society. Those laws may be fluid and easily changed, but nobles are hesitant to defy the law of the land without good reason or ample power behind their defiance. Gaspard happened to have enough people behind him, and the balls to try. Also, a surprising amount of righteousness. I think he truly feels that he is best for Orlais, and that Celene's continued rule would only lead to a ruined Orlais. I honestly didn't expect to like Gaspard and hate Celene as much as I did.

[wright1978]

Celene certainly isn't savior of Orlais. Personally if possible i'll be knocking her and Gaspard's heads together to do what's best for Orlais and unite in a political marriage. If not i'll likely side with Gaspard and shrug ruefully.

[Titans1226]

I have a serious problem deciding between these teo. Céline(my phone keeps autocorrecting to that french was of spelling) is backstabbing, vile, treacherous, plays the game, and only seem to care about elves because of her lover. Gaspard may be honorable, noble, a good person, but he still is powerhungry. I think it'd be ideal to give each a bit of land and the Inquisition take the rest

[Titans1226]

I have a serious problem deciding between these teo. Céline(my phone keeps autocorrecting to that french was of spelling) is backstabbing, vile, treacherous, plays the game, and only seem to care about elves because of her lover. Gaspard may be honorable, noble, a good person, but he still is powerhungry. I think it'd be ideal to give each a bit of land and the Inquisition take the rest

[Titans1226]

I have a serious problem deciding between these teo. Céline(my phone keeps autocorrecting to that french was of spelling) is backstabbing, vile, treacherous, plays the game, and only seem to care about elves because of her lover. Gaspard may be honorable, noble, a good person, but he still is powerhungry. I think it'd be ideal to give each a bit of land and the Inquisition take the rest

[HK-90210]

I have a serious problem deciding between these teo. Céline(my phone keeps autocorrecting to that french was of spelling) is backstabbing, vile, treacherous, plays the game, and only seem to care about elves because of her lover. Gaspard may be honorable, noble, a good person, but he still is powerhungry. I think it'd be ideal to give each a bit of land and the Inquisition take the rest

 

Gaspard may be awesome and honorable(for an Orlesian). I wouldn't go so far as to call him a 'good person', though.

[Titans1226]

I only say he is a good person because he let a person go tgat he could have legally killed

[Mihura]

And what does that have to do with that? 

 

Well if Remache indeed had control over the Empress and his "Game" was excellent why would he needs Gaspard at all? Gaspard is needed to kill Celene on the field of battle because there is no other way. The cloak and dagger does not work on her because she and Briala are good at it, even Gaspard and Remache play and rumors about an elven lover were pure luck and did not come from espionage. 

 

Gaspard is competent and strong leader like behlen and celene in that matter is harrowmont.

 

Actually Gaspard is Harrowmont, a traditionalist with a sense of honor. Behlen is Celene, a reformist that does anything do get to power, even killing people close to him.

[Nerevar-as]

But at the same time he's generally not a very nice guy. I mean with the whole murdering his father and brother thing...

Considering the dwarven society, they weren't that nice to begin with. Depending on how you rp, nor was the DN PC. So he had a point.

On Celene vs Gaspard, one is a warmonger, the other a manipulative sociopath, so I hope to be able to finish them both, along with those cavalier sobs and most of orlesian nobility.

[HK-90210]

Actually Gaspard is Harrowmont, a traditionalist with a sense of honor. Behlen is Celene, a reformist that does anything do get to power, even killing people close to him.

 

One difference: Bhelan can and does accomplish his reforms. Through tyrannical rule and wiping out any who oppse him. Bye-bye, Harrowmonts. Celene doesn't do jack.

[Zana]

One difference: Bhelan can and does accomplish his reforms. Through tyrannical rule and wiping out any who oppse him. Bye-bye, Harrowmonts. Celene doesn't do jack.

Bhelen didn't accomplish much before Warden either (past getting rid of immediate competition of his siblings) - which is not that dissimilar to Celene just keeping her power.  The Assembly was deadlocked, and neither had enough power to change the balance.  Same with Celene - she does not have enough power to push through the reforms.  As mentioned, I do expect Inquisitor to be able to empower one of the contenders enough for them to enact changes they want.

[Nerevar-as]

Another point is that Bhelen got rid of people who were on his way as far we know. Celene had no problems having unrelated people killed.

[TK514]

A big difference between Bhelen and Celene is that Bhelen came out of the succession crisis stronger than ever.  He had all the resources he possessed before being crowned, all the additional resources of the crown, and he got rid of some major dissenters in the process.

 

Celene, on the other hand, has already lost some of her most important allies.  Her unassailable champion, Michel, is under threat of death for his duplicity.  Her most competent spymaster (and possibly the real secret to her success in The Game), Briala, has turned traitor, and a misunderstanding with the Champion of Kirkwall cost her her closest noble sponsor and friend, Duke Prosper.

 

Even if she somehow wins the war, the war itself is an indication that she's already lost the support of some of Orlais' most notable nobility.

 

In my opinion, at this point she's lost so much of the structure that has kept her in power for the last 20 years that any victory is already pyrrhic from her personal perspective.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Well if Remache indeed had control over the Empress and his "Game" was excellent why would he needs Gaspard at all? Gaspard is needed to kill Celene on the field of battle because there is no other way. The cloak and dagger does not work on her because she and Briala are good at it, even Gaspard and Remache play and rumors about an elven lover were pure luck and did not come from espionage. 

 

 

Actually Gaspard is Harrowmont, a traditionalist with a sense of honor. Behlen is Celene, a reformist that does anything do get to power, even killing people close to him.

Because Celene wouldn't be only his problem as proved celene was completely incompetent and as i said even taking down puppet king would take some effort especially if such person have competent peoples at their side guy wanted use gaspard to his own benefit not because celne was super powerful.

 

In terms of being strong and competent leader gaspard is behelen as i said celene is as shown not very competent person like harrowmont. 

[Barquiel]

Even if she somehow wins the war, the war itself is an indication that she's already lost the support of some of Orlais' most notable nobility.

 

 

If she wins the war it would be much easier to implement her reforms because those nobles who opposed her progressive views were probably with Gaspard (and they are probably dead or imprisoned if Celene wins the civil war)

[Mihura]

Because Celene wouldn't be only his problem as proved celene was completely incompetent and as i said even taking down puppet king would take some effort especially if such person have competent peoples at their side guy wanted use gaspard to his own benefit not because celne was super powerful.

 

In terms of being strong and competent leader gaspard is behelen as i said celene is as shown not very competent person like harrowmont. 

 

If Celene is a puppet Empress who is the puppeteer? And why would Remache even go to war with her if he has control over Celene? that makes no sense. A incompetent leader does not attract excellent people, it is actually the opposite. Good leaders surround themselves with excellency for a reason aka Morrigan in DA:I  

 

Also you have no evidence of high strategy, Gaspard is a good tactician that is the only thing in the book. You have evidence of Orlais being at peace and growing as a culture. That does not happen because of reasons, Celene was reforming the country socially and so much more, I really do not see why are people ignoring that. 

 

Without having Gaspard on the throne at least one time, you have no evidence of him being a good ruler. Like I said he is a good tactician, the rest remains to be seen but I am not counting on it, unless there is another war.