2341 réponses à ce sujet

[TheKomandorShepard]

If Celene is a puppet Empress who is the puppeteer? And why would Remache even go to war with her if he has control over Celene? that makes no sense. A incompetent leader does not attract excellent people, it is actually the opposite. Good leaders surround themselves with excellency for a reason aka Morrigan in DA:I  

 

Also you have no evidence of high strategy, Gaspard is a good tactician that is the only thing in the book. You have evidence of Orlais being at peace and growing as a culture. That does not happen because of reasons, Celene was reforming the country socially and so much more, I really do not see why are people ignoring that. 

 

Without having Gaspard on the throne at least one time, you have no evidence of him being a good ruler. Like I said he is a good tactician, the rest remains to be seen but I am not counting on it, unless there is another war.

Nobles not single noble but nobles she doesn't have any control over them they have over her.Because he wanted more power ? Not rly pretty much it is saying that alistair is great leader because he have Eamon and posssible the warden at his side... not mention that pretty much all of her peoples left her save perhaps for morrigan.

 

LoL what peace have anything with being great leader peace can be always pretty much clene proved im TME she can't hold their own against another nobles she failed at peace part when she was put onto test not only with orlais but also mages and templars.It is saying like if there was peace in ferelden cailan was great leader...  

 

As i said he is strong and can put his peoples in place also he proved to be much smarter than celene and much more competent than she is destroying her one after another.Like it or not you can question if he will be good leader but he proved to be better one than celene already who had no control whatsoever over her peoples and was destroyed more than once by gaspard.   

[Mihura]

Nobles not single noble but nobles she doesn't have any control over them they have over her.Because he wanted more power ? Not rly pretty much it is saying that alistair is great leader because he have Eamon and posssible the warden at his side... not mention that pretty much all of her peoples left her save perhaps for morrigan.

 

LoL what peace have anything with being great leader peace can be always pretty much clene proved im TME she can't hold their own against another nobles she failed at peace part when she was put onto test not only with orlais but also mages and templars.It is saying like if there was peace in ferelden cailan was great leader...  

 

As i said he is strong and can put his peoples in place also he proved to be much smarter than celene and much more competent than she is destroying her one after another.Like it or not you can question if he will be good leader but he proved to be better one than celene already who had no control whatsoever over her peoples and was destroyed more than once by gaspard.   

 

I do not get your logic, so one of the most powerful nobles, Remache has no power over her(being excellent player at the Game) and others have? Who are theses nobles who speak of? And why not make war on them since they have the true power? Killing a puppet ruler is easy, changing the structure of corruption and influences is the difficult part.  

 

Being a person that is good at killing in battle is not the same as being a visionary. 

[leaguer of one]

Gaspard is competent and strong leader like behlen and celene in that matter is harrowmont.

...If you don't know what a progressive is and want a warmonger as a leader.

[TheKomandorShepard]

I do not get your logic, so one of the most powerful nobles, Remache has no power over her(being excellent player at the Game) and others have? Who are theses nobles who speak of? And why not make war on them since they have the true power? Killing a puppet ruler is the easy part, changing the structure of corruption and influences is the difficult part.  

 

Being a person that is good at killing in battle is not the same as being a visionary. 

Oh god... ok Imagine there is a council of 7 peoples and lord/whatever as their "leader" now council can easliy intimidate lord to do what they want him to do but for example 1 of them have own objective but he won't be able control lord because whole council controls him so he not only have to handle puppet leader but mainly council.And not rly because you have handle those who control puppet.

 

Celene is neither unless you talk about her great vision that she proved can't never push as she is too weak to do things nobles won't like.Gaspard have vision and is competent as he proved how he will handle this we will have to see but as i said he already proved he isn't dumb and outsmarted celene many times.   

 

 

...If you don't know what a progressive is and want a warmonger as a leader.

Celene is too weak to change anything gaspard may not be progressive but if you are looking for savior you won't find that here he is at least competent and strong enough to push his goals. 

 

[Mihura]

Oh god... ok Imagine there is a council of 7 peoples and lord/whatever as their "leader" now council can easliy intimidate lord to do what they want him to do but for example 1 of them have own objective bu he won't be able control lord because whole council controls him so he not only have to handle puppet leader but mainly council.And not rly because you have handle those who control puppet.

 

Celene is neither unless you talk about her great vision that she proved can't never push as she is too weak to do things nobles won't like.Gaspard have vision and is competent as he proved how he will handle this we will have to see but as i said he already proved he isn't dumb and outsmarted celene many times.   

 

 

Celene is too weak to change anything gaspard may not be progressive but if you are looking for savior you won't find that here he is at least competent and strong enough to push his goals. 

 

 

Ok than why aren't Gaspard and Remach attacking those who are controlling her or even making alliances with the nobles pulling the strings? Why choose to kill Celene at all if she is of no importance. when the real power of the throne is elsewhere. Actually in your theory Gaspard is a fool.

[Drasanil]

...If you don't know what a progressive is and want a warmonger as a leader.

 

It doesn't have a thing to do with being progressive/warmongering. It's about the type of personality they have. Celene is a wishy-washy appeaser sort of person like Harrowmont, while Gaspard is a no compromise strong man like Bhelen.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Ok than why aren't Gaspard and Remach attacking those who are controlling her or even making alliances with the nobles pulling the strings? Why choose to kill Celene at all if she is of no importance. when the real power of the throne is elsewhere. Actually in your theory Gaspard is a fool.

She have importance (rather symbolic) just not in way you think if they will remove her they will be able take a seat but now not as puppet leader assuming you are strong leader that will be able to enforce obedience.

[Mihura]

She have importance (rather symbolic) just not in way you think if they will remove her they will be able take a seat but now not as puppet leader assuming you are strong leader that will be enable enforce obedience.

 

So you think that a strong leader enforces obedience? So you want a dictator, I really think you are underestimate Celene power and influence but hey you seem quite strict on your views.

[Drasanil]

So you think that a strong leader enforces obedience? So you want a dictator, I really think you are underestimate Celene power and influence but hey you seem quite strict on your views.

 

What power and influence? Everything fell to sh!t around her and her closest aliies and confidants betrayed her. She might have support from some nobles but she's pretty much lost anyone she could trust on a personal level. That makes her very vulnerable.

[TheKomandorShepard]

So you think that a strong leader enforces obedience? So you want a dictator, I really think you are underestimate Celene power and influence but hey you seem quite strict on your views.

Pretty much ,it worked well for orzamar when smart dictator took over and removed bunch of corrupted idiots and hey guy even managed to put some social progress.I don't think so she have more power than i think ,she could have if i said she was stronger and smarter.

[The Baconer]

What power and influence? Everything fell to sh!t around her and her closest aliies and confidants betrayed her. She might have support from some nobles but she's pretty much lost anyone she could trust on a personal level. That makes her very vulnerable.

 

Perfect for dictating terms in favor of my Inquisition.

[HK-90210]

Bhelen didn't accomplish much before Warden either (past getting rid of immediate competition of his siblings) - which is not that dissimilar to Celene just keeping her power.  The Assembly was deadlocked, and neither had enough power to change the balance.  Same with Celene - she does not have enough power to push through the reforms.  As mentioned, I do expect Inquisitor to be able to empower one of the contenders enough for them to enact changes they want.

 

Bhelan never truly had the throne at all until the Warden came along. He needed help to get it. But once he had it, he used it. Celene was Empress for 20 years. Two decades, and she didn't have the backbone to do anything other than try to get an elf into a university. Sorry, Bhelan is a far more effective monarch than Celene. In my opinion, they are nothing alike.

[Dean_the_Young]

A big difference between Bhelen and Celene is that Bhelen came out of the succession crisis stronger than ever.  He had all the resources he possessed before being crowned, all the additional resources of the crown, and he got rid of some major dissenters in the process.

 

Celene, on the other hand, has already lost some of her most important allies.  Her unassailable champion, Michel, is under threat of death for his duplicity.  Her most competent spymaster (and possibly the real secret to her success in The Game), Briala, has turned traitor, and a misunderstanding with the Champion of Kirkwall cost her her closest noble sponsor and friend, Duke Prosper.

 

Even if she somehow wins the war, the war itself is an indication that she's already lost the support of some of Orlais' most notable nobility.

 

In my opinion, at this point she's lost so much of the structure that has kept her in power for the last 20 years that any victory is already pyrrhic from her personal perspective.

 

That's not even factoring in associated events either. Personal power bases aside, the national fortunes of the respective monarchs are widely different. For the Dwarves, the Blight was a national reprieve: Darkspawn pressures diminished, the hoard was broken and entered a period of civil war, and potentially both the Anvil of the Void and the Architect could provide additional (if temporary) advantages in the ongoing strife. Power struggle aside, the Blight was a tide that lifted the fortunes of the Dwarves.

 

Orlais is unlikely to see anything close to that. The mage-templar conflict is burning significant parts of the countryside and peasantry, possibly worse than the Civil War to the south. Then there's the point about the Rift, the presumable nexus of a demonic invasion just to the East. Orlais is the central focus of three major conflicts, none of which give Orlais even a competitive advantage vis-a-vis it's main rivals.

[Nerevar-as]

A big difference between Bhelen and Celene is that Bhelen came out of the succession crisis stronger than ever.  He had all the resources he possessed before being crowned, all the additional resources of the crown, and he got rid of some major dissenters in the process.

 

Celene, on the other hand, has already lost some of her most important allies.  Her unassailable champion, Michel, is under threat of death for his duplicity.  Her most competent spymaster (and possibly the real secret to her success in The Game), Briala, has turned traitor, and a misunderstanding with the Champion of Kirkwall cost her her closest noble sponsor and friend, Duke Prosper.

 

Even if she somehow wins the war, the war itself is an indication that she's already lost the support of some of Orlais' most notable nobility.

 

In my opinion, at this point she's lost so much of the structure that has kept her in power for the last 20 years that any victory is already pyrrhic from her personal perspective.

Culling the orlesian nobility, especially those who side with Gaspard, would help a lot stability in Orlais external relation affairs. Gaspard wants to reconquer Ferelden to start with.

 

If I can I´ll kill them both (choose no evil), otherwise probably Gaspard, Celene would keep Orlais busy with internal strife, so only they are affected by it.

[TK514]

Culling the orlesian nobility, especially those who side with Gaspard, would help a lot stability in Orlais external relation affairs. Gaspard wants to reconquer Ferelden to start with.
 
If I can I´ll kill them both (choose no evil), otherwise probably Gaspard, Celene would keep Orlais busy with internal strife, so only they are affected by it.

What Gaspard wanted before the war is irrelevant. His only chance of invading Ferelden within a decade or longer went out the window the moment his ambush failed to capture or kill Celene. Civil wars take a horrendous toll on a nation, and when you add in the Breach (not to mention Briala's plan to get executed for treason while ensuring whoever wins burns a few more Alienages to the ground), what you have is an Orlais that will have to rebuild before it can consider any sort of adventurism into other nations.

[Lilaeth]

She supposed to be very good at politics and "the Game", but as the story on TME progress she fails constantly. That is not an example of shrewd politician.

 

I'd blame the author for that, not necessarily Celene.

[Spectre Impersonator]

I'd blame the author for that, not necessarily Celene.

So one of the official lead writers of the Dragon Age franchise defines her character a certain way and he's somehow less right than your previous perception of her? What Weekes wrote is canon and that's who Celene is, whether you liked it or not.

[raging_monkey]

So one of the official lead writers of the Dragon Age franchise defines her character a certain way and he's somehow less right than your previous perception of her? What Weekes wrote is canon and that's who Celene is, whether you liked it or not.

its debatably "canon" due to BW rule on hard canon. Its tangentally related at best like asunder its like a AU.

*Gaider said this years ago maker help if i can find it*

[HK-90210]

its debatably "canon" due to BW rule on hard canon. Its tangentally related at best like asunder its like a AU.

*Gaider said this years ago maker help if i can find it*

 

Not really. The only character featured in Masked Empire who has been seen before is Leliana. And Bioware has already written her in as surviving. So the events of Masked Empire did, in fact, occur as they were written. Nothing a player decides in any of the games can overide anything that takes place in that book. So, like Stolen Throne and the Calling, it happened.

[raging_monkey]

Not really. The only character featured in Masked Empire who has been seen before is Leliana. And Bioware has already written her in as surviving. So the events of Masked Empire did, in fact, occur as they were written. Nothing a player decides in any of the games can overide anything that takes place in that book. So, like Stolen Throne and the Calling, it happened.

never said it didnt happen just maybe "not exactly like it" happened

Food for thought

[HK-90210]

never said it didnt happen just maybe "not exactly like it" happened

Food for thought

 

See, that kind of logic works for Bioware's games, where the story varies playthrough to playthrough. But with novels, it only happened one way: the way the author wrote it. There can be some variation if the narrator(s) is/are unreliable(see Harry Potter and Game of Thrones), but with a novel such as this, I consider it a far reach to say that the novel wasn't an accurate and faithful portrayal of events. Just my opinion.

[raging_monkey]

See, that kind of logic works for Bioware's games, where the story varies playthrough to playthrough. But with novels, it only happened one way: the way the author wrote it. There can be some variation if the narrator(s) is/are unreliable(see Harry Potter and Game of Thrones), but with a novel such as this, I consider it a far reach to say that the novel wasn't an accurate and faithful portrayal of events. Just my opinion.

a respectable opinion truly. But if something tangently releated i see it as lesser "canon" that has x relevence just my opinion. On this what is canon/not canon

[Br3admax]

Um, what? I'm not getting how TME is not as relevant as saying the Blight ended. It definitely happened. It's not an opinion, it just did. 

[Master Warder Z_]

Celene's political situation is unattainable in my eye anyway; i mean look to the aftermath of her victory.

 

She will have lost the supporters and nobles she loses before and during the conflict, along with those she defeats.

 

Gaspard is the most powerful and respected general in her armed forces; and likely one of its best, those following him likewise make up the majority of her military command and elite units, in a post civil war where she wins...Orlais loses simply because its taking out too much of what makes it strong, If Celene is deposed, Orlais loses nothing but those too stupid or stubborn to see the changing of the era and Celene it self.

 

Its military acrumen is salvaged and the bulwark against the Qunari remains.

[Drasanil]

Um, what? I'm not getting how TME is not as relevant as saying the Blight ended. It definitely happened. It's not an opinion, it just did. 

 

Its less relevant because it makes Celene look bad and some people really want to like her/support her/don't want to admit she's the next Harrowmont?