2341 réponses à ce sujet

[raging_monkey]

Its less relevant because it makes Celene look bad and some people really want to like her/support her/don't want to admit she's the next Harrowmont?

just for the record im not with that camp just. Tried to clarify a post on canon lol

[Br3admax]

Canon is the accepted truth of a set of works. TME canonically happens, because no matter what the events in the book happen. Few things player controlled are "canon" yes, but this book is completely out of the player's control and is independent of our actions. 

[Drasanil]

Oh totally agree with you, just pointing out why some people want to deny it. It makes their team/gal look bad. 

[Smoolio]

Just read TME, loved Celene and Briala. I will strive to unite them again in Inquisition as a new united human/elf Orlais, the old Orlesian nobles and the radical among the Elves have a choice "they can live in my new world, or they can die in their old one.”

[Warden Commander Aeducan]

Just read TME, loved Celene and Briala. I will strive to unite them again in Inquisition as a new united human/elf Orlais, the old Orlesian nobles and the radical among the Elves have a choice "they can live in my new world, or they can die in their old one.”

Celene doesn't deserve Briala. She murder Briala's parent to advance her political career then lying to Briala for twenty years, and using Briala for her own agenda. Celene never truly love Briala, she is possessive and I'll be damned to send Briala back to that sick woman.

[Smoolio]

Celene doesn't deserve Briala. She murder Briala's parent to advance her political career then lying to Briala for twenty years, and using Briala for her own agenda. Celene never truly love Briala, she is possessive and I'll be damned to send Briala back to that sick woman.

 

The other choice would of lead to Lady Mantillon backing Gaspard and Briala's parents murdered anyway along with Briala and Celene. I felt that from Celene's inner monologue she clearly loved Briala.

[HiroVoid]

Being in love with someone and being abusive to them don't exclude each other.

[boissiere]

About Celene and the way to deal with her, I'll let Leliana gives her opinion because she comes from that country...

[acid_rain82]

Celene is the lesser of two evils

[Bigdoser]

Celene is the lesser of two evils

Pretty much this after reading the book I think Orlais is pure garbage and people talk crap about the tevinter they are just as bad for different reasons. 

[Augustei]

About Celene and the way to deal with her, I'll let Leliana gives her opinion because she comes from that country...

Well she comes from Ferelden... She just grew up in Orlais.......Before going back to Ferelden........Then back to Orlais

[dragonflight288]

Well she comes from Ferelden... She just grew up in Orlais.......Before going back to Ferelden........Then back to Orlais

 

And possibly had her head cut off in Ferelden before going to Kirkwall, then back to Orlais, alongside Wynne depending on Warden's choices. 

 

[Dean_the_Young]

If she wins the war it would be much easier to implement her reforms because those nobles who opposed her progressive views were probably with Gaspard (and they are probably dead or imprisoned if Celene wins the civil war)

 

Alternatively, if she wins the war her support base may be so weak and elven rights so toxic and her need to keep stability so paramount that she can't implement her reforms for fear of sparking another round of opposition.

 

Celene's enemies are not the nobility who would get pissed off by elven reforms. Celene's enemies are the nobles who side with Gaspard for whatever reason they did. Celene has her own anti-elven supporters who support her rather than Gaspard, and defeating Gaspard hardly means that the elven cause is championed/the anti-elven cause is marginalized. The Orlais Civil War is conflict over the appropriate level of militarism in the empire, not over the proper placement of elves.

[Dean_the_Young]

If Celene is a puppet Empress who is the puppeteer? And why would Remache even go to war with her if he has control over Celene? that makes no sense. A incompetent leader does not attract excellent people, it is actually the opposite. Good leaders surround themselves with excellency for a reason aka Morrigan in DA:I  

 

Since when was Morrigan an excellent, well, anything? Her value came from exclusive knowledge and unconventional magics given to her by Flemeth.

 

Politically, socially, emotionally, she was hardly anything remarkable.

 

 

Also you have no evidence of high strategy, Gaspard is a good tactician that is the only thing in the book. You have evidence of Orlais being at peace and growing as a culture. That does not happen because of reasons, Celene was reforming the country socially and so much more, I really do not see why are people ignoring that. 

 

 

Because people (in-universe and out) disagree that she was making substantial improvements.

 

Celene's reforms were often nice-sounding but pretty minor and superficial. They could be things with long-term benefits... or not. Without successes to point at, 'change' is not reform. Systemic reform, especially with regards to things like elven policy, were limited at best, while Celene's policies were also unsatisfactory by other accounts.

 

The elves see that Celene razed an alienage. Her closest confidants and rivals know that she wouldn't keep her promises and agreements. Her military aristocracy lacked confidence that she was even interested in reversing the defeats of her predecessors.

 

Who, exactly, is supposed to point to Celene as the beneficial influence on their lives or for the country?

[Dean_the_Young]

...If you don't know what a progressive is and want a warmonger as a leader.

 

You make them sound like they're incompatible.

 

Progressive imperialism, like liberal interventionism, is totally a thing.

[Spectre Impersonator]

Celene is the lesser of two evils

Possibly, but I wouldn't mind the option to permanently dispose of BOTH evils.

[Br3admax]

Just read TME, loved Celene and Briala. I will strive to unite them again in Inquisition as a new united human/elf Orlais, the old Orlesian nobles and the radical among the Elves have a choice "they can live in my new world, or they can die in their old one.”

"Do you truly believe you can change the world? Not even I am so naive as that."

[Master Warder Z_]

Gaspard will just make a superior ruler.

[Darkly Tranquil]

Possibly, but I wouldn't mind the option to permanently dispose of BOTH evils.

Bioware prefers binary choices - easier to code.

[Vilio1]

Celene is the lesser of two evils

 

That's how I see it, too. Gaspard is gonna get the knife if I have that option in-game. Assuming it will be a binary choice Celene can keep the throne, at least she is no warmonger. My ideal solution would be to reconcile Celene and Briala.

[Nerevar-as]

The other choice would of lead to Lady Mantillon backing Gaspard and Briala's parents murdered anyway along with Briala and Celene. I felt that from Celene's inner monologue she clearly loved Briala.

So she got her servant killed herself so that they wouldn´t get killed by someone else.

 

Catalyst logic at its finest.

[Mistic]

I'm going to make a prediction here: our final choice about Celene and Gaspard won't be dictated by what happened in The Masked Empire, but by what will be explained in the game. "They wanted to kill me, they betrayed me, they were rude to me, etc."

 

And the epilogues, if they tell us what the future of the realm will be like. Let's be honest, Bhelen wouldn't get so much support if the epilogue didn't say he was the best thing to happen to Orzammar in centuries (or Harrowmont being the worst thing to happen to Orzammar).

[Master Warder Z_]

at least she is no warmonger.

 

No she's just a liar, a pragmatist and a political opportunist.

 

You think she would oppose an invasion of Fereldan if the nobility consented to it?

 

I doubt it.

 

If it comes between keeping the Orlesian Throne and invading Fereldan, she will do what she has done in the past.

 

Bow to the nobility and their whims to keep power.

[Drasanil]

And the epilogues, if they tell us what the future of the realm will be like. Let's be honest, Bhelen wouldn't get so much support if the epilogue didn't say he was the best thing to happen to Orzammar in centuries (or Harrowmont being the worst thing to happen to Orzammar).

 

Bhelen got a lot of support right from the start because it was fairly obvious he was the better candidate. The epilogues just made it clear how much better he was. [I mean, Bioware was even kind enough to have Zevran point it out for you if you couldn't figure it out on your own.]

[Mistic]

 

Bhelen got a lot of support right from the start because it was fairly obvious he was the better candidate. The epilogues just made it clear how much better he was. [I mean, Bioware was even kind enough to have Zevran point it out for you if you couldn't figure it out on your own.]

 

Not really. Rarely do I see arguments in favour of Bhelen made with pre-epilogue information. Doubly so if someone played Dwarven Noble Origin first, where there's a lot of evidence against him. As for Zevran, it seems he was the only one with an opinion. Which doesn't amount to much in the end, because despite his misgivings about Harrowmont being right, Bhelen does exactly the same thing during the first quest.

 

Better examples would be that merchant saying good things about Bhelen. Or the Dwarven Commoner's sister being his lover. But those are rarely mentioned, and in-game looks like a much weaker reason than Harrowmont just being right about Bhelen being a fratricide usurper. Or the first quest: Harrowmont just wants you to fight in the Arena while Bhelen asks you to deliver forged documents. Truly an ally you can count on, right? (but yes, you could count on him; the risky bet paid off).