Or both to rule, the ruthlessness of Celene balanced by the honor of Gaspard driven toward making Orlais a stronger nation.
I'll be seriously impressed with my virtual diplomatic skills if I can actually get the two of them to marry at this point... :S
She's a pretty terrible person, but in peace time she is a solid ruler.
But this isn't peace time, while I really don't like the fact that Gaspard wants to retake Fereldan. He is a far better military leader.
If I can get Celene to peacefully step down, I will. Otherwise she's gonna to have to die.
I'll be picking the worst of the two, naturally. What's bad for Orlais is good for Ferelden. With a demonic invasion, large loss of life, etc, they won't be invading us for at least a decade or two. Plenty of time for Ferelden to recover from the Blight and make some solid alliances.
She's a pretty terrible person, but in peace time she is a solid ruler.
But this isn't peace time, while I really don't like the fact that Gaspard wants to retake Fereldan. He is a far better military leader.
If I can get Celene to peacefully step down, I will. Otherwise she's gonna to have to die.
That just means Gaspard would make a better General than Emperor. Much of an Emperor's reign is during peacetime unless you're a warmonger.
I think Ceoldoren made a wonderful point. Celene has ruled the Empire very well as it seems almost starting a golden age. But Gaspard is a wonderful general and Noble man but i think he would be a very bad ruler during peace times so it kinda comes down to what is more important for Orlais a Empress who once the war is over will bring about a golden age or a Emperor who will make sure there is a empire after the war?
In a perfect situation I would have to say Celene as Empress and Gaspard as her highest General. but since that isn't likely i think Celene is the best hope for the Empire because i believe she can lay the ground work for much social change inside of the empire while when Gaspard dies it will create a vacuum of power and may leave the Empire worse off when his heirs take the throne.
Elizabeth wasn't that nice of a woman she was out smarted a few times and she screwed over some people, and sent a lot of people to their deaths. but she still brought about a golden age for her country. Nice people don't always make good leaders. I.E Unharden Alistair in the Epilogue
Celene isn't a traitor, she's just outstayed her welcome on the throne
Actually, Gaspard is Harrowmont, traditionalist, Celene IS Bhelen, reformist.
This issue was talked in another thread about the Orlesian War, and one of the general opinions is that Celene has Bhelen's objectives (progress, trade and diplomacy with other nations, giving more rights to the lower classes) but with Harrowmont's character (too worried about what nobles might say, trying to appear as the benevolent lord, horrible judge of character). Meanwhile, Gaspar has Harrowmont's objectives (honor, tradition, the empire first, classism and xenophobia) but with Bhelen's mentality (cunning, the end justifies the means, master planner, resolute).
This issue was talked in another thread about the Orlesian War, and one of the general opinions is that Celene has Bhelen's objectives (progress, trade and diplomacy with other nations, giving more rights to the lower classes) but with Harrowmont's character (too worried about what nobles might say, trying to appear as the benevolent lord, horrible judge of character). Meanwhile, Gaspar has Harrowmont's objectives (honor, tradition, the empire first, classism and xenophobia) but with Bhelen's mentality (cunning, the end justifies the means, master planner, resolute).
That seems pretty fair to me
Celene dropped her "let's help the elves" as soon as it became slightly unpopular with the nobles
They should just marry.
The strength of both, the weakness of neither.
Meh. I'm going with spoiled, pampered noble no better or worse than the alternative(s).
That seems pretty fair to me
Celene dropped her "let's help the elves" as soon as it became slightly unpopular with the nobles
Remember Halamshiral.
I don't see how Celene can be qualified as great leader anymore or at least qualify as a person who keep their word, true she is more progressive than Gaspard, she's clever and resourceful but after her decision to march on Halamshiral to crush the elven rebellion just to dispel the rumours that she was too lenient with them. I lose my respect for her when she chooses to protect her own reputation, put herself above the elves and most of all she's fell for Gaspard's ploy. Celene could stay in Val Royeaux and plot to counter Gaspard's plan to humiliate her, but instead she loses control of herself and fall into a trap which almost cause Celene her life.
That seems pretty fair to me
Celene dropped her "let's help the elves" as soon as it became slightly unpopular with the nobles
She wants to elves greater rights without removing them entirely from Orlais (like Briala wants). That means slow gradual change with compromise. You can't just ignore the nobles who give you your power, even if they are bigoted fools.
Remember Halamshiral.
I don't see how Celene can be qualified as great leader anymore or at least qualify as a person who keep their word, true she is more progressive than Gaspard, she's clever and resourceful but after her decision to march on Halamshiral to crush the elven rebellion just to dispel the rumours that she was too lenient with them. I lose my respect for her when she chooses to protect her own reputation, put herself above the elves and most of all she's fell for Gaspard's ploy. Celene could stay in Val Royeaux and plot to counter Gaspard's plan to humiliate her, but instead she loses control of herself and fall into a trap which almost cause Celene her life.
She wasn't just protecting her reputation she was trying to ensure that she retained the loyalty of the nobles so they didn't support Gaspard (I suppose that's somewhat the same thing though). Staying in Val Royeaux would have convinced the nobles that she was sympathetic to the elves cause and too weak to put down a rebellion in her own empire. That's the way of the Game. The would have her being dethroned and Gaspard would have put down the rebellion instead. She miscalculated though by presuming Gaspard was going to continue play by the rules of the Game when he instead started an open rebellion.
She doesn't care about elves that is pretty much clear by now she is just power hungry and tries paint herself pretty and as reformist but she is nothing but power hungry and weak nobles rule her not she them and she is corrupted and support corrupted system and by that any her reforms that she will fear put in life won't be worth anything like pretty much law isn't worth anything in orlais already thanks to peoples like celene.
She wants to elves greater rights without removing them entirely from Orlais (like Briala wants). That means slow gradual change with compromise. You can't just ignore the nobles who give you your power, even if they are bigoted fools.
Yeah until it becomes unpopular, then she burns down alienages
I am not sure if I would call her the "savior" of Orlais...but her vision of Orlais is one I can respect, as opposed to Gaspard's.
Yeah until it becomes unpopular, then she burns down alienages
What's the alternative? Gaspard forced her hand with his play. If she didn't do it, he would have (after his coronation of course).
What's the alternative? Gaspard forced her hand with his play. If she didn't do it, he would have (after his coronation of course).
I don't know perhaps she should have control over her peoples but that would require strength that peoples like behlen have and she doesn't.
That just means Gaspard would make a better General than Emperor. Much of an Emperor's reign is during peacetime unless you're a warmonger.
Indeed, and I may dethrone his racist ass once the rifts are dealt with.
But we're in the apocalypse right now, I'm gonna deal with one thing at a time.
What's the alternative? Gaspard forced her hand with his play. If she didn't do it, he would have (after his coronation of course).
For someone who is supposedly so good at politics and "the game" she seems to be played like a fiddle a lot
A lot of what Celene does is just normal for Orlesian politics. I tend to have a pretty poor opinion of nobles throughout Thedas; it is not just in Orlais that peasants, and in particularly the elves, are badly treated. The Chantry are also complicit in the way affairs are run. They criticise Tevinter, rightly, for sacrificing people in blood magic rituals in order to advance in power, yet overlook rulers like Celene doing exactly the same via assassins. It wasn't just Briala's family who died but every servant in the house in order to convince someone she was fit the rule. Gaspard would undoubtedly do just the same, as would any other noble in the "Game". It is noticeable that Celene actually marches against Halamshiral not just because of the play, but because the Divine insists she does something about the elf situation. So Justinia is just as culpable particularly as it is implied that this is quid pro quo for her doing something about the mage/Templar problem (which as yet has not broken out into outright rebellion).
If I'd been Celene, I'd have sent back the message that the Divine should jolly well sort out her own affairs and leave me to sort out mine in my own way. Fact is she had done something about it; she'd sent her personal assassin to sort out the problem. Presumably she knew it was going to take Briala a while to get there, so just needed to sit things out and defy Gaspard to openly attack her in the seat of her power. That was where Celene showed her greatest weakness in that she was too easily swayed from her original course; if she had genuinely felt that was the best solution to the problem, she should have stuck by her convictions. Quite why she need to go personally is also open to question; did she not have any loyal generals she could send on her behalf?
I never understood the timescale in Masked Empire either. How was it that Celene could get there so quickly that Briala arrived less than 24 hours before she did? Briala had already been gone several days before Celene set out, so even with enforced marches, Briala should still have got there sufficiently ahead of her to carry out her mission and get back to Halamshiral before the army arrived. If it was possible to travel there that quickly, why didn't she send Briala the same way, given how urgent her mission was? Instead Briala apparently had to take the normal amount of time, while Celene went express. So I feel there are elements of the plot in ME that are very contrived. Another was the whole business with Imshael and the eluvians.
In answer to the post though, as stated above, Celene is just being a noble, certainly no saint but no worse than any of the others. I'd like to abolish the "Game" but I doubt that would be an option.
She is a politician.
She is whatever she needs to be in order to stay in power.
She is a politician.
She is whatever she needs to be in order to stay in power.
She supposed to be very good at politics and "the Game", but as the story on TME progress she fails constantly. That is not an example of shrewd politician.
She supposed to be very good at politics and "the Game", but as the story on TME progress she fails constantly. That is not an example of shrewd politician.
For someone who is supposedly so good at politics and "the game" she seems to be played like a fiddle a lot
She didn't get beaten at the Game, she got beaten because Gaspard didn't play by the rules of the Game and decided to start an open rebellion. He is a soldier after all.
I don't know perhaps she should have control over her peoples but that would require strength that peoples like behlen have and she doesn't.
Perhaps it is a lack of strength but you can't really compare Orzammar and Orlais. They have a different history, culture and species. No doubt their political systems are also quite different.
A lot of what Celene does is just normal for Orlesian politics. I tend to have a pretty poor opinion of nobles throughout Thedas; it is not just in Orlais that peasants, and in particularly the elves, are badly treated. The Chantry are also complicit in the way affairs are run. They criticise Tevinter, rightly, for sacrificing people in blood magic rituals in order to advance in power, yet overlook rulers like Celene doing exactly the same via assassins. It wasn't just Briala's family who died but every servant in the house in order to convince someone she was fit the rule. Gaspard would undoubtedly do just the same, as would any other noble in the "Game". It is noticeable that Celene actually marches against Halamshiral not just because of the play, but because the Divine insists she does something about the elf situation. So Justinia is just as culpable particularly as it is implied that this is quid pro quo for her doing something about the mage/Templar problem (which as yet has not broken out into outright rebellion).
If I'd been Celene, I'd have sent back the message that the Divine should jolly well sort out her own affairs and leave me to sort out mine in my own way. Fact is she had done something about it; she'd sent her personal assassin to sort out the problem. Presumably she knew it was going to take Briala a while to get there, so just needed to sit things out and defy Gaspard to openly attack her in the seat of her power. That was where Celene showed her greatest weakness in that she was too easily swayed from her original course; if she had genuinely felt that was the best solution to the problem, she should have stuck by her convictions. Quite why she need to go personally is also open to question; did she not have any loyal generals she could send on her behalf?
I never understood the timescale in Masked Empire either. How was it that Celene could get there so quickly that Briala arrived less than 24 hours before she did? Briala had already been gone several days before Celene set out, so even with enforced marches, Briala should still have got there sufficiently ahead of her to carry out her mission and get back to Halamshiral before the army arrived. If it was possible to travel there that quickly, why didn't she send Briala the same way, given how urgent her mission was? Instead Briala apparently had to take the normal amount of time, while Celene went express. So I feel there are elements of the plot in ME that are very contrived. Another was the whole business with Imshael and the eluvians.
In answer to the post though, as stated above, Celene is just being a noble, certainly no saint but no worse than any of the others. I'd like to abolish the "Game" but I doubt that would be an option.
The Chantry has a close connection with Orlais and have for a long time. Lore seems to indicate it was natural for them to aid each other. Also Emperor Drakon tried to abolish the Game but only made it worse. It seems too entrenched a system to be easily done away with.
Do góry