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Empress Celene... vile traitor OR savior of Orlais?


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#476
Drasanil

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Spoiler

 

 

Yes really. I would say in fact, unless you played the DN origin first, Bhelen was the obvious choice. All you have to do is walk around Orzammar, talk to people and see what is going on. Heck the entire focus of the quest is the gridlock in the Assembly which is preventing you getting the support you need. One hand you're presented with a guy who while nice, clearly supports the system which you are witnessing fail first hand, and on the other someone who is somewhat unpleasant who wants to cut through the red tape of that system and do things his way. 

 

Orzammar was collapsing under its own weight and Harrowmont was the guy who thought that was fine. It wasn't really much of a gamble.


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#477
InfinitePaths

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I despise them both.Orlais is a horrible place, and they are horrible people.Though,I find the politics extremely fun!

 

It's like choosing between a kick in the nuts and a punch to the face, you don't want either.

 

Celene is a cold, incompetent, superficial, evil, backstabing woman, who has "good ideals" but she is unable to achieve them, in fact she does the opposite and just causes more harm with her rule.

 

Gaspard is a honorable warrior, who is also cunning at the game in his own right, though he is also a horrible person and would also make a terrible ruler.He's a selfish scum who has no respect for anyone except for his fellow orlesian humans.

 

Neither of them deserve to rule, and in return, Orlesian nobles don't deserve a good ruler.


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#478
In Exile

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Yes really. I would say in fact, unless you played the DN origin first, Bhelen was the obvious choice. All you have to do is walk around Orzammar, talk to people and see what is going on. Heck the entire focus of the quest is the gridlock in the Assembly which is preventing you getting the support you need. One hand you're presented with a guy who while nice, clearly supports the system which you are witnessing fail first hand, and on the other someone who is somewhat unpleasant who wants to cut through the red tape of that system and do things his way. 

 

Orzammar was collapsing under its own weight and Harrowmont was the guy who thought that was fine. It wasn't really much of a gamble.

 

To add to that, there is one merchant you can talk to about supporting Bhelen and he says how it's an opportunity for growth for the city, etc. Bhelen is a power-hungry dictator, but when it comes down to it, he's an effective power hungry dictator, and as a GW working to stop the extermination of all life in Thedas, effective is pretty much goal A through Z. Deposing Bhelen is less of a problem once there isn't an archdemon out and about Thedas. 


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#479
Xilizhra

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Actually, it's possible to get a decent idea of their policies by listening to their criers. Harrowmont's crier denouncing Bhelen's attempts at some kind of reform to the caste system is pretty damning.



#480
Master Warder Z_

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Actually, it's possible to get a decent idea of their policies by listening to their criers. Harrowmont's crier denouncing Bhelen's attempts at some kind of reform to the caste system is pretty damning.

 

"Lord Harrowmont furious at the gray warden's interference claims no one can stop his plans to strip Orzammar of it's defenses say insiders." -Crier



#481
Xilizhra

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"Lord Harrowmont furious at the gray warden's interference claims no one can stop his plans to strip Orzammar of it's defenses say insiders." -Crier

The point isn't what Bhelen is doing as much as what Harrowmont is opposing--namely, the casteless getting any rights.



#482
DarthLaxian

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How Gaspard is a traitor? That he crushed corrupted and incompetent Celene in her own game?From what i remember he still is loyal to orlais but not to celene that can't handle situation as she proved. 

 

Celene is the - pardon my french - fuckin' empress, so no, by not being loyal to her and starting a civil war, he is a traitor (I am not saying that maybe Orlais does not need a make over (it does - common people need rights, chevaliers/nobles need to be held accountable etc.) or that I don't get his reasons for betraying his empress - but as a trained chevalier (being equivalent to a trained special forces soldier today) he should not betray his commander in chief (the empress is the highest military leader in Orlais, like the US-President is for the USA)...Celene may or may not be a good empress (I don't know enough about her yet to judge - yes, I read "The masked Empire", but it does not say much about her style of ruling...yes, it tells us how she dealt with the elfen uprising (or wanted to deal with it at least), but not a thing more), but she is no traitor at least (how she acts as a ruler is something I would need in order to judge her...does she like arts, is she treating her servants badly, does she like having people tortured - that's things I would need to know in order to be able to judge her!)

 

greetings LAX



#483
Master Warder Z_

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but as a trained chevalier (being equivalent to a trained special forces soldier today) he should not betray his commander in chief 

 

Why?

 

He owes the Empress no loyalty by the time he strikes against her.

 

He gave her a chance to avoid war, he gave her a chance to accept defeat gracefully, he bested her and yet she clings to the throne like a petulant child.


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#484
Xilizhra

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Why?

 

He owes the Empress no loyalty by the time he strikes against her.

 

He gave her a chance to avoid war, he gave her a chance to accept defeat gracefully, he bested her and yet she clings to the throne like a petulant child.

Isn't that the same thing as saying that he hasn't actually bested her yet?



#485
Master Warder Z_

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Isn't that the same thing as saying that he hasn't actually bested her yet?

 

If she had even a strip of honor she would have honored her agreement.

 

And he would be Emperor.

 

Gaspard won the duel.



#486
Xilizhra

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If she had even a strip of honor she would have honored her agreement.

 

And he would be Emperor.

 

Gaspard won the duel.

This agreement being what, precisely? And since when did Celene duel anyone? Or was this with Michel?



#487
Master Warder Z_

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This agreement being what, precisely? And since when did Celene duel anyone? Or was this with Michel?

 

Ja.

 

The agreement at the end of TME if you recall.

 

The duel of champions.

 

Gaspard rightfully should be Emperor by this point.

 

Celene was the mook who tried to renege on the agreement and knife him after Gaspard won and got back handed for her trouble.



#488
Xilizhra

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Ja.

 

The agreement at the end of TME if you recall.

 

The duel of champions.

 

Gaspard rightfully should be Emperor by this point.

 

Celene was the mook who tried to renege on the agreement and knife him after Gaspard won and got back handed for her trouble.

Ah well. I don't like Celene, but I like Gaspard less, and Celene's bright enough to not renege on any agreements with the Inquisition.



#489
Master Warder Z_

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and Celene's bright enough to not renege on any agreements with the Inquisition.

 

If she had honored her promise the civil war plaguing her lands would have ended.

 

She could have saved the thing she claims to love from the scourge of war and she choose not to.

 

I don't trust her to not do anything similar again in the future if it even vaguely suits her.


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#490
Warden Commander Aeducan

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Ah well. I don't like Celene, but I like Gaspard less, and Celene's bright enough to not renege on any agreements with the Inquisition.

That is pure speculation at this point since DAI isn't out yet, and how do you even know Celene would honored her agreements with the Inquisition or that she won't backstab the Inquisitor if given the opportunity. She already didn't keep her promises and agreements with the Elves when she chooses to raze the Alienage in Halamshiral, and she's been lying to Briala for twenty years about murdering Briala's parents. I fail to see anything that guarantee Celene is more trusty and honorable than Gaspard.



#491
draken-heart

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I have not read the entire thread, nor the Masked Empire, but I have a problem with anyone who is a military figure running anything. Call it practical stupidity, but when it comes to actually governing, people who can ACTUALLY govern are often the better choice.

 

I hope we can help the elves take over Orlais and put the nobles in their place. (Switched inquisitor from Qunari first, to Elven Female Sera-lover first)



#492
Master Warder Z_

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I have not read the entire thread, nor the Masked Empire, but I have a problem with anyone who is a military figure running anything.

 

Thing of it is Gaspard is a noble and his family has ran a province of the Empire Val Chevins for many decades.

 

He's as qualified to rule as Celene, even more so considering he was groomed for it a heck of a lot more then that little wastrel.



#493
draken-heart

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Thing of it is Gaspard is a noble and his family has ran a province of the Empire Val Chevins for many decades.

He's as qualified to rule as Celene, even more so considering he was groomed for it a heck of a lot more then that little wastrel.


The chevalier thing makes me feel as if he would fit better as a soldier in the army than sitting on the throne.

#494
Master Warder Z_

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Because he is a competent military tactician and warrior he cannot also be a ruler of a Nation?

 

 


 



#495
draken-heart

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Because he is a competent military tactician and warrior he cannot also be a ruler of a Nation?


Just saying, he might use a military response for every little problem. I feel that someone who actually specializes in diplomacy should govern, while someone who has military experience should work with military matters. Simple matter of using your assets to their fullest.
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#496
The Baconer

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Because he is a competent military tactician and warrior he cannot also be a ruler of a Nation?

 

Not necessarily.

 

But he is Orlesian.



#497
Mihura

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Since when was Morrigan an excellent, well, anything? Her value came from exclusive knowledge and unconventional magics given to her by Flemeth.

 

Politically, socially, emotionally, she was hardly anything remarkable.

 

 

Because people (in-universe and out) disagree that she was making substantial improvements.

 

Celene's reforms were often nice-sounding but pretty minor and superficial. They could be things with long-term benefits... or not. Without successes to point at, 'change' is not reform. Systemic reform, especially with regards to things like elven policy, were limited at best, while Celene's policies were also unsatisfactory by other accounts.

 

The elves see that Celene razed an alienage. Her closest confidants and rivals know that she wouldn't keep her promises and agreements. Her military aristocracy lacked confidence that she was even interested in reversing the defeats of her predecessors.

 

Who, exactly, is supposed to point to Celene as the beneficial influence on their lives or for the country?

 

Not sure if you forgot but there is a war going on with mages and templar, there is also a breach in the sky with demons. I say Morrigan knowledge is highly valuable at this point of time. Maybe she was not the best at social parties in DA:O but with time she would learn what she needed, Morrigan excel at surviving.

The book only covers part of Celene reign, maybe people should not forget that. A reform is suppose to be a gradual thing, you do not see big changes like a radical movement. IRL how much time to you think it takes to change a culture mentally, 20 years?
Also there are even evidences of her support of Justinia V in favor of the mages. There is also a talk with Celene and Leliana about rumors of her elven favoritism. About her minor polices to help elves and others, I really do not see where did you got that. Can you source in the book what were her polices during her reign? The only thing there, is this.

 

 

In recent years Celene has been strongly encouraging the university to overlook the lack of status & rank for certain individuals who show prodigious talent or potential which could help further the interests and prestige of the Orlesian Empire, provided a noble sponsors them. Most recently this has even extended to Celene personally interceding in support an elven math prodigy, Lennan, who was sponsored by Comtesse Helene.

 

 

I really doubt that is all of it, If Celene and Briala were doing nothing major to help the elven people over the years, why would that even affect the stability of Orlais. All of this things are in the book but reforms can fail too of course.

 

If you read my other posts in this topic, I said that I believe that the elven people future is not with the humans, Celene intentions to help them ended in Halamshiral and my vote goes to Briala.

 

You make them sound like they're incompatible.

 

Progressive imperialism, like liberal interventionism, is totally a thing.

 

The problem with that is that Gaspard stated in the book that he wants to invade other countries to unit Orlais and not to illuminated others with his country ideals. Actually Gaspard could be a lot better than Celene if it was not for his damn chevalier honor. He was trained by the same people in the Game and was good at it. The situation in Halamshiral, the way he used a bard to do his dirty work and lure Michel way during the hunt.

 

Gaspard let his honor get in the way of doing what is needed, that is why Celene is still alive. Actually I changed my mind Celene and Gaspard are both incompetent assholes.



#498
Master Warder Z_

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Not necessarily.

 

But he is Orlesian.

 

You just don't quit do you?



#499
In Exile

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Why?

 

He owes the Empress no loyalty by the time he strikes against her.

 

He gave her a chance to avoid war, he gave her a chance to accept defeat gracefully, he bested her and yet she clings to the throne like a petulant child.

 

If someone gives the current ruler a chance to gracefully surrender their power, that doesn't make them any less of a usurper. It just means they tried to usurp nicely first.


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#500
The Baconer

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You just don't quit do you?

 

I'll quit when the Orlesian aristocracy quits being cancer.


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