2341 réponses à ce sujet

[Aimi]

Pave the way for what?

Yeah, it's not like the magisters and oxmen have so many armies and fleets that they can send them across the sea to the other side of the continent. Good luck with that logistical nightmare.

[Aimi]

You should worry about them. They both have expansionist tendencies. I just don't think anytime soon. And they're not free to do it unless they win their own war against each other first.

Yeah, and they also have much better pickings closer to home: Rivain and Antiva. It would be preposterous for either one to invade Orlais or Ferelden at any point in the immediate future. That would be like the Komnenid Byzantine Empire trying to conquer Capetian France. No sense is made.

If the Qunari/Tevinter take over [the other one], Rivain, Antiva, the Marches, and Nevarra, then Orlais is in danger. Before that, they aren't a serious threat.

[dragonflight288]

Just a question but does Gaspard even still want to be Emperor after Masked Empire? I kind of got the impression he was regretting his bid for the throne.

 

He gave his word and is a man of honor. His honor will demand he follow through. He may regret it now, but he will follow through regardless because his honor demands it and the word he gave to other nobles. 

[Nerevar-as]

For me, Celene is win-win. If she's competent, Orlais will be less likely to attack the rest of Thedas when it becomes strong again. If she's not, Orlais will hopefully remain weak and divided, thus greatly hampering its ability to attack the rest of Thedas.

Please keep in mind that the perceived weakness consisted of slightly more rights to the lower classes and not invading Ferelden.

 

So yeah. Says a lot about Gaspard and Co really.

[TheCreeper]

Please keep in mind that the perceived weakness consisted of slightly more rights to the lower classes and not invading Ferelden.

 

So yeah. Says a lot about Gaspard and Co really.

Ferelden part is even more warped when you realize that Celene tried to annex Ferelden through a marriage with Alistair's brother. She abandoned once Alistair took the throne and she realized Ferelden would flip it's **** at any attempts at a marriage between the two.

[FiveThreeTen]

Ferelden part is even more warped when you realize that Celene tried to annex Ferelden through a marriage with Alistair's brother. She abandoned once Alistair took the throne and she realized Ferelden would flip it's **** at any attempts at a marriage between the two.

That slightly inaccurate. She abandonned it because Cailan was already married. I suspect it's more Eamon who had a part in "let's oust Anora out of the picture".

[Darkly Tranquil]

That slightly inaccurate. She abandonned it because Cailan was already married. I suspect it's more Eamon who had a part in "let's oust Anora out of the picture".

 

I doubt Celene would have regarded Cailan already being married to be much of an impediment to her ambitions.

[FiveThreeTen]

I doubt Celene would have regarded Cailan already being married to be much of an impediment to her ambitions.

Except she did. Plus the whole "taken as an aggression by Ferelden" thing.

[Warden Commander Aeducan]

Except she did. Plus the whole "taken as an aggression by Ferelden" thing.

She abandons that plan because most Felderen would not take the idea lightly, and there are many like Loghain who would fight and die for Felderen's independence. If most Felderen are passive to the idea of Celene annex Ferelden through a marriage with Cailan, she would even orchestrate and manipulate the event from the shadows that would remove Anora out of the picture. Celene didn't abandon her plan because Cailan is already married, she abandon her plan because most Felderen would taken this political marriage idea as aggression.

Celene is that ruthless in TME, and she do every questionable things to to advance her political career or to keep power. Why would Celene even care about Anora since she's nothing but an obstacle to her plan.

[Drasanil]

She abandons that plan because most Felderen would not take the idea lightly, and there are many like Loghain who would fight and die for Felderen's independence. If most Felderen are passive to the idea of Celene annex Ferelden through a marriage with Cailan, she would even orchestrate and manipulate the event from the shadows that would remove Anora out of the picture. Celene didn't abandon her plan because Cailan is already married, she abandon her plan because most Felderen would taken this political marriage idea as aggression.

Celene is that ruthless in TME, and she do every questionable things to to advance her political career or to keep power. Why would Celene even care about Anora since she's nothing but an obstacle to her plan.

 

Now I have this image of Celene as an evil gold-digger trying to marry Cailan so she can divorce him and get half of Felrelden. And then the rest of it through alimony payments 

[FiveThreeTen]

She abandons that plan because most Felderen would not take the idea lightly, and there are many like Loghain who would fight and die for Felderen's independence. If most Felderen are passive to the idea of Celene annex Ferelden through a marriage with Cailan, she would even orchestrate and manipulate the event from the shadows that would remove Anora out of the picture. Celene didn't abandon her plan because Cailan is already married, she abandon her plan because most Felderen would taken this political marriage idea as aggression.

Celene is that ruthless in TME, and she do every questionable things to to advance her political career or to keep power. Why would Celene even care about Anora since she's nothing but an obstacle to her plan.

But I wasn't debating her rutlessness. But it was part of it. Cailan already married+Ferelden would take it as aggression+Orlesians nobles not thrilled with the idea.

edit found the quote in question: "Unfortunaltely Cailan has already been married at the time."

[Darkly Tranquil]

She abandons that plan because most Felderen would not take the idea lightly, and there are many like Loghain who would fight and die for Felderen's independence. If most Felderen are passive to the idea of Celene annex Ferelden through a marriage with Cailan, she would even orchestrate and manipulate the event from the shadows that would remove Anora out of the picture. Celene didn't abandon her plan because Cailan is already married, she abandon her plan because most Felderen would taken this political marriage idea as aggression.

Celene is that ruthless in TME, and she do every questionable things to to advance her political career or to keep power. Why would Celene even care about Anora since she's nothing but an obstacle to her plan.

 

That's what I was getting at. Celene wouldn't hesitate for a second to have Anora offed the moment she was in the way if she thought that the rest of the plan was feasible.

[Warden Commander Aeducan]

Now I have this image of Celene as an evil gold-digger trying to marry Cailan so she can divorce him and get half of Felrelden. And then the rest of it through alimony payments 

Celene slept with person whom parents murdered by her. Call me judgmental but I don't think she can be any more shameful at this point, and I think Cailan wouldn't throw a hissy fit so long as he get to be a knight in shiny armor waving sword around yelling "GLORIOUS". We all know who's the real power governing Felderen during Cailan's reign.
 

 

But I wasn't debating her rutlessness. But it was part of it. Cailan already married+Ferelden would take it as aggression+Orlesians nobles not thrilled with the idea.

edit found the quote in question: "Unfortunaltely Cailan has already been married at the time."

Where did you get that quote anyway? Well, from Cailan's documents latest page, found during return to Ostagar DLC. From my understanding she is still going to try annex Ferelden through political marriage, but the Warden's action during the Landsmeet seal her plan in motion. I got the impression Celene didn't continue her plan of political marriage because she didn't want to risk second Ferelden's rebellion, or risk to upset many Orlesians nobles who wish to see Ferelden as their slave.

 

Spoiler

Cailan

 

The visit to Ferelden will be postponed indefinitely, due to the darkspawn problem. You understand, of course? The darkspawn have odd timing, don't they? Let us deal with them first. Once that is done we can further discuss a permanent alliance between Orlais and Ferelden.

 

-- "A note written in an uncharacteristally familiar tone from Empress Celene to King Cailan"

[dragonflight288]

I got the impression that her plans were hampered by the Blight, and Cailan's death is what kept things from progressing. 

[FiveThreeTen]

 

Where did you get that quote anyway? Well, from Cailan's documents latest page, found during return to Ostagar DLC. From my understanding she is still going to try annex Ferelden through political marriage, but the Warden's action during the Landsmeet seal her plan in motion. I got the impression Celene didn't continue her plan of political marriage because she didn't want to risk second Ferelden's rebellion, or risk to upset many Orlesians nobles who wish to see Ferelden as their slave.

 

Spoiler

Cailan

 

The visit to Ferelden will be postponed indefinitely, due to the darkspawn problem. You understand, of course? The darkspawn have odd timing, don't they? Let us deal with them first. Once that is done we can further discuss a permanent alliance between Orlais and Ferelden.

 

-- "A note written in an uncharacteristally familiar tone from Empress Celene to King Cailan"

From TME. Sorry I'm at work, had to sneak a peek on my kindle (it's p.47 on mine) here is the full thing:

Spoiler

"Celene had once in her youger years, hoped to do though marriage what Meghren had failed to do by force. [...] Unfortunaltely Cailan has already been married at the time. Given how much blood had been shed to put a new king on Ferelden's throne (referring to Maric) -and how much Ferelden still had to rebuild after the most recent Blight-any perceived manipulation from Orlais would be taken as another attack."

Yes I'm aware of those letters, it could hint to marriage (maybe a cut content?). But it would slightly contradict the quote above.

[Warden Commander Aeducan]

From TME. Sorry I'm at work, had to sneak a peek on my kindle (it's p.47 on mine) here is the full thing:

Yes I'm aware of those letters, it could hint to marriage (maybe a cut content?). But it would slightly contradict the quote above.

It's okay. Well, sorry about interrupting you from your work.

I think it's a hint for the cut content about political marriage between Celene and Cailan's plan. DG himself revealed that the original plot for Origins included a visit by Celene I to Denerim. There we would learn that Cailan had planned to divorce Anora in order to wed the Empress, and that Teyrn Loghain had discovered this scheme. (I guess this give Loghain one more valid reason to betray Cailan).

 

You are right it's indeed slightly contradict with the information in TME. Well, I suppose many things written in Dragon Age's lore can contradict to each other and BioWare are no stranger to making a mistake.

[FiveThreeTen]

It's okay. Well, sorry about interrupting you from your work.

I think it's a hint for the cut content about political marriage between Celene and Cailan's plan. DG himself revealed that the original plot for Origins included a visit by Celene I to Denerim. There we would learn that Cailan had planned to divorce Anora in order to wed the Empress, and that Teyrn Loghain had discovered this scheme. (I guess this give Loghain one more valid reason to betray Cailan).

 

You are right it's indeed slightly contradict with the information in TME. Well, I suppose many things written in Dragon Age's lore can contradict to each other and BioWare are no stranger to making a mistake.

Lol no worry, as I should be ... you know.... working, not browsing the BSN

I wasn't aware of the visit plans. Yeah cut content it is then.

[Warden Commander Aeducan]

Lol no worry, as I should be ... you know.... working, not browsing the BSN

I wasn't aware of this the visit plans. Yeah cut content it is then.

And I should be...writing my report not browsing the BSN. I blame you BSN.

 

I just checked on Cut content page on Wikia, it's a shame really a lot of cut content are great and should belong in the game in the first place.

[Sylentmana]

I haven't read the book so I probably can't say for sure, but she sounds like a product of bad writing. Like the author didn't know exactly what her abilities were supposed to be or where the author wanted to take her.

[TheCreeper]

That slightly inaccurate. She abandonned it because Cailan was already married. I suspect it's more Eamon who had a part in "let's oust Anora out of the picture".

No it's pretty explicted  that she only abandoned it once Alistair assumed the throne.

[Zana]

So, worst case scenario is Celine continuing being her weak willed self and slowly has the Empire stagnate, fracture and disappear. 

 

Best case is her reforming the empire (over time), strengthening it and giving it a new beginning.

 

Gaspard is not that different in possible outcomes.

At worst he can cause enough uproar with nobles by both application of military force and his honor (not a trait you want in the land of intrigue) to have him assassinated or overthrown.  This will lead Orlais into chaos as there is no clear line of succession.  Empire fractures and goes into prolonged state of civil war.

 

Alternatively he could end up stamping out the intrigue ridden court by mass executions, turning Orlais into a military state (I think it's the only possible non-anarchy state that can occur from rapid change), and lead conquests to expand the Empire.

 

Any of these are possible.  Celine has not shown that she can execute sweeping reforms (even over time).  Is it due to lack of power to oppose the nobles or is it her character?  Gaspard has not shown that he will be able to hold the throne.  I don't think we'll know how it'll play out until the epilogue of DAI, but with time to kill until release we can keep arguing!

[Nerevar-as]

Gaspard rebelled because Celene gave a few more rights to lower classes, wanted diplomacy to solve the mage-templar problem (as if brute force against the Chantry was an option), and didn´t want to "unite" Orlais by invading Ferelden again. He got quite significant support, so really, most orlesian nobility are quite a bunch of SOBs, and we already know what Gaspard´s foreign and internal politics will consist of. At least Celene tries to make things better as long as her position isn´t threatened.

[FiveThreeTen]

No it's pretty explicted  that she only abandoned it once Alistair assumed the throne.

I'm sorry but no (see the above quotes), or provide this explicit source. And besides, Alistair being king is never mentionned in the novel because he isn't king in everyone's worldstates.

[Sylvianus]

Gaspard rebelled because Celene gave a few more rights to lower classes, wanted diplomacy to solve the mage-templar problem (as if brute force against the Chantry was an option), and didn´t want to "unite" Orlais by invading Ferelden again. He got quite significant support, so really, most orlesian nobility are quite a bunch of SOBs, and we already know what Gaspard´s foreign and internal politics will consist of. At least Celene tries to make things better as long as her position isn´t threatened.

 

Lower classes ? What are you exactly talking about ? And if you are talking about elves, that's wrong, Gaspard didn't even care about them. 

 

Gaspard never wanted to use force against the chantry and wasn't against diplomacy to solve the mage-templar problem. He just wanted the ruler of Orlais to deal with the matter directly instead of letting the chantry doing the job without even caring about it, as wished Celene, doing nothing in other words. For him, the issues of Orlais concerns the throne of Orlais first, the Nation first, not religion, even when it's about the mage templar war, if it affects the empire. I don't see at all the issue there, and I totally agree with him there to be honest. The templar mage war happens inside and outside of the borders or Orlais, that's quite uninspiring to do nothing as a ruler of a Nation.

 

And Gaspard rebelled because he thought that Celene was too weak to rule Orlais, and that things could only be worse in the future with her remaining on the throne. ( at least alone )