2341 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

Right now Briala is one elf with a mirror - a very powerful mirror - but a mirror.  A mirror likely still filled a LOT of dangerous crap.  

 

Maybe - just maybe - a better idea to take your time and not have elven men, women and children flooding into your Eluvian space where another Varterall can eat them.

 

Masked Empire only scratches the surface of elven liberation... if they push it in Inquisition - I'll just consider it poor storytelling.  

 

If Briala is to succeed at all - she needs to be smart about it.  Plan for the future - not just some childish notion of freedom that's going to get her people killed. 

 

She's in the RIGHT place to do right by her people unlike the fool mages.  

 

I hope she takes advantage of it.

Better poor storytelling than unsatisfying storytelling, in my opinion.

[RobRam10]

Right now Briala is one elf with a mirror - a very powerful mirror - but a mirror.  A mirror likely still filled a LOT of dangerous crap.  
 
Maybe - just maybe - a better idea to take your time and not have elven men, women and children flooding into your Eluvian space where another Varterall can eat them.
 
Masked Empire only scratches the surface of elven liberation... if they push it in Inquisition - I'll just consider it poor storytelling.  
 
If Briala is to succeed at all - she needs to be smart about it.  Plan for the future - not just some childish notion of freedom that's going to get her people killed. 
 
She's in the RIGHT place to do right by her people unlike the fool mages.  
 
I hope she takes advantage of it.

Briala will fail and the hopes of the elves crushed.

[WolfofRockies]

The Empress is a weak leader. After I read the book TME, I was left hoping that I can kill both Gaspard and Celene. As for Briala, I feel for her, but I do not feel that she is up to free her people. I feel that she is destined to fail because she will do something foolish...

[Medhia_Nox]

@Xilizhra:  Yes, well we know the world revolves around Xilizhra.  

 

I just happen to disagree. 

 

@RobRam10: If she acts pre-maturely.  Failure is assured.  

 

But if she takes time - maybe even decades - to discover the power of the Eluvians.  Funnel her people to safety in a kind of underground railroad... stockpiles - builds a base of power - forms alliances with powerful factions like the Dalish (who are not a given) and the dwarves or even sympathetic humans - then there's a real chance her people can be free. 

[Xilizhra]

@Xilizhra:  Yes, well we know the world revolves around Xilizhra.  

 

I just happen to disagree. 

 

@RobRam10: If she acts pre-maturely.  Failure is assured.  

 

But if she takes time - maybe even decades - to discover the power of the Eluvians.  Funnel her people to safety in a kind of underground railroad... stockpiles - builds a base of power - forms alliances with powerful factions like the Dalish (who are not a given) and the dwarves or even sympathetic humans - then there's a real chance her people can be free. 

Actually, I just don't think it'd necessarily be poor storytelling, because... well, I haven't seen the game yet and don't know what the factors would be.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Xilizhra:  Even if she could snatch a small parcel of land during the chaos... she'd NEVER keep it.

 

I would actually really like to see the City Elves get a homeland (however I really want to see the Dalish go extinct) - and I want them to get a permanent homeland - and Briala has already shown she can think into the future, and she needs to do that.

 

And to achieve ANY sort of permanency - she can't just scream about nebulous concepts like freedom and then cut a few humans - and plant a flag and say: "Victory". 

 

====

 

Her OTHER route - and I actually suspect this was her intent - is to bring the City Elves to equal status AS Orlesians.  

 

That would be much easier and much quicker - and if that's the route they take - then I think it could make sense in the span of time DA:I takes (which - to my knowledge - won't have those hideous time jumps DA:2 had)

 

====

 

You may think I'm just being confrontational with you Xil - but if the City Elves are going to make a genuine grab for something better - I want them to do it right.

 

Their situation is light years different than the mages.

[TK514]

A month to go before we discover how many elven communities commit suicide by PC.  I'm not discounting zero as a possibility, but I'm also not assuming zero means the elves will be in any way successful.

 

I would rather BioWare takes the time necessary to properly tell the story rather than trying to cram it into one installment, and as a side issue no less.

[The Baconer]

The Eluvians network is more dependent on the host nations allowing access to the Eluvians than the host nations are on having access to the Eluvians. The networks' roots are only a secret so long as they are unknown to the local powers, which is lost after they become a trade node. The local power's ability to control the local area is not, short of invasion which ruins the prospects of peaceful trade.

 

And, if you really want to be blunt, the ability for the network to be an invasion corridor from any other network node makes it too dangerous to leave as a trade device in the hands of the untrusted. Eluvians aren't going to be left in alienages.

 

I guess it would depend on how these nations weigh the benefits over the risks (where there is a lot of money to potentially be made). Using an Eluvian as an "invasion corridor" would be dubious at best. The webway has some nasty side-effects on humans (permanent migraines and so on), and most people don't have a large military force exclusively populated by elves. An army would also be limited to marching in a formation of a few columns abreast, as the entrance and exit points are bottlenecks. This makes the prospect of invading through a node, that is likely guarded as one would guard a major rode or border, rather inadvisable. 

 

 

And kidnapped and tortured for the access codes, at which point there need be no more rich and influential elves.

 

This is the problem with Briala's 'exclusively elven asset thanks to password' scheme for any long-term monopoly.

 

But, again, only elves can effectively traverse the webway. No matter who has the code, they're always going to be the sole laborers in an industry that is of heavy economic importance to many nations.

[TK514]

I guess it would depend on how these nations weigh the benefits over the risks (where there is a lot of money to potentially be made). Using an Eluvian as an "invasion corridor" would be dubious at best. The webway has some nasty side-effects on humans (permanent migraines and so on), and most people don't have a large military force exclusively populated by elves. An army would also be limited to marching in a formation of a few columns abreast, as the entrance and exit points are bottlenecks. This makes the prospect of invading through a node, that is likely guarded as one would guard a major rode or border, rather inadvisable. 

 

 

 

But, again, only elves can effectively traverse the webway. No matter who has the code, they're always going to be the sole laborers in an industry that is of heavy economic importance to many nations.

 

Of course, now you've got the same problem transporting goods as you did transporting troops.  The entrance and exit points are bottlenecks.  There's also the issue of elves being the only thing so far that can traverse the network without side effects.  How do you get livestock through there?  Or draft mounts to pull your cargo?

 

The eluvians might be good for communications or small, high value goods, but it would be a poor choice to replace caravans or shipping for bulk cargo.

[The Baconer]

Of course, now you've got the same problem transporting goods as you did transporting troops.  The entrance and exit points are bottlenecks.

 

Depends on how many wagons across it can fit. A caravan traveling along a main rode certainly doesn't take up as much lateral space as a marching army, especially an army that is expecting combat in the very near future.

 

 

There's also the issue of elves being the only thing so far that can traverse the network without side effects.  How do you get livestock through there?  Or draft mounts to pull your cargo?

 

How animals are affected was not actually discussed or mentioned to my knowledge, but it's likely that only Halla can traverse it undisturbed. Which would mean either cutting in the Dalish, or cutting out the Dalish, and taking their Halla so I can get dolla.

 

 

The eluvians might be good for communications or small, high value goods, but it would be a poor choice to replace caravans or shipping for bulk cargo.

 

I never intended it to totally replace conventional trade. This would be an exclusive (and expensive) service for affluent clients.

[Spectre Impersonator]

I'm seeing a ton of logistical discussion here and it makes me wonder, how relevant do you all think it will end up being to the future of our stories? It seems to me, in fantasy, logistics are usually cast aside to make whatever the storytellers want to happen, happen. In a world with magic and its own rules that are still being made up, it must be pretty easy to rationalize most dramatic events.

[dragonflight288]

Better poor storytelling than unsatisfying storytelling, in my opinion.

 

.....

 

I'm against both. 

[Dean_the_Young]

I guess it would depend on how these nations weigh the benefits over the risks (where there is a lot of money to potentially be made).

 

 

The more money there is to be made, the less reason there is to let the elven liberation movement keep it and the fewer people would be interested in doing so.

 

Why should, say, the Carta let an elven upstart made a fortune for all elvenkind when they could use their international network of thugs and corruption to muscle their way in and pay alienage elves a pittance in comparison?
 

 

Using an Eluvian as an "invasion corridor" would be dubious at best. The webway has some nasty side-effects on humans (permanent migraines and so on), and most people don't have a large military force exclusively populated by elves. An army would also be limited to marching in a formation of a few columns abreast, as the entrance and exit points are bottlenecks. This makes the prospect of invading through a node, that is likely guarded as one would guard a major road or border, rather inadvisable. 

 

The logistics of guarding a major road or border aside, the importance of node-access was rather the point. Eluvians aren't going to be left under the control of elves in the alienages. They'll be taken to fortresses or deathtraps so that the local lord can profit most and be in the least danger of the various factions that could put together elven forces to exploit such an opportunity.

 

 

 

 

But, again, only elves can effectively traverse the webway. No matter who has the code, they're always going to be the sole laborers in an industry that is of heavy economic importance to many nations.

 

 

And?

 

Elves being comfortable in the Eluvians has nothing to do with them being the primary beneficiaries of the Eluvians. The people at the ends control access and profits. The elves aren't united enough to provide a monopoly of transit service, and even if they were none of the countries are dependent on an Eluvian service to make such a monopoly effective.

 

Elves can be the only labor source in the world to exploit the Eluvians to their fullest potential, and they can still be exploited for it.

[The Baconer]

The more money there is to be made, the less reason there is to let the elven liberation movement keep it and the fewer people would be interested in doing so.

 

I'd see it as more of a bloc that is interested in the advancement of elves within society.

 

Why should, say, the Carta let an elven upstart made a fortune for all elvenkind when they could use their international network of thugs and corruption to muscle their way in and pay alienage elves a pittance in comparison?

 

Because their amount of control over what happens to their goods (and their employees) in the webway would be severely limited? Wouldn't it just be more convenient to enter a partnership?

 

 

Eluvians aren't going to be left under the control of elves in the alienages.

 

That was never the assumption. They would be under the control of a certain arm of a rather popular religious institution in Thedas.

 

 

They'll be taken to fortresses or deathtraps so that the local lord can profit most and be in the least danger of the various factions that could put together elven forces to exploit such an opportunity.

 

Looking back through the book, it's not as simple as guarding or moving exit nodes. Briala transports Celene, Michel, and Gaspard to different locations, but neither of them leave through a connecting Eluvian.

 

 

Elves being comfortable in the Eluvians has nothing to do with them being the primary beneficiaries of the Eluvians. The people at the ends control access and profits.

 

And if they decide to stop working, no one will be a beneficiary.

 

 

The elves aren't united enough to provide a monopoly of transit service, and even if they were none of the countries are dependent on an Eluvian service to make such a monopoly effective.

 

Uh, that's kind of the point. They'd be creating a service that the nations would find enticing, and then use the threat of denial of said service as leverage if need be.

[Dean_the_Young]

I'd see it as more of a bloc that is interested in the advancement of elves within society.

 

Your vision is irrelevant. The vision of people with the power to and interest in stopping an elven monopoly is.

 

 

 

Because their amount of control over what happens to their goods (and their employees) in the webway would be severely limited? Wouldn't it just be more convenient to enter a partnership?

 

 

Partnership is expensive. Coercion is cheap. If you intend to argue that the eluvians are more profitable, don't just stop because western liberal sensibilities thinks nice is natural.

 

Elves could hide in the webway from non-elves who don't want to follow, but they'd need to leave some time... or else be trapped in where bounty-hunting elves (and who knows what else)might find them.

 

 

That was never the assumption. They would be under the control of a certain arm of a rather popular religious institution in Thedas.

 

 

Then the elves certainly definitely aren't going to get an economic monopoly at the expense of the security of the human kingdoms and their established economic interests.

 

Not, mind you, that a Chantry monopoly is even possible given the dispersion of the Eluvians to non-Chantry factions.

 

Looking back through the book, it's not as simple as guarding or moving exit nodes. Briala transports Celene, Michel, and Gaspard to different locations, but neither of them leave through a connecting Eluvian.

 

 

But they all had to enter through one. That, if nothing else, is your chokepoint.

 

 

 

 

And if they decide to stop working, no one will be a beneficiary.

 

 

 

Until the Carta offers their 'motivation' services and the friends and family of those workers are held hostage, beaten, or worse if the elves don't get back to work (or try to hide within the eluvian).

 

There's a number of reasons that labor strikes are a relatively recent development, and modern standards of culture that don't exist in Thedas are among them.

 

 

 

Uh, that's kind of the point. They'd be creating a service that the nations would find enticing, and then use the threat of denial of said service as leverage if need be.

 

 

The point that elves aren't united enough to produce a monopoly of a transit service which isn't established enough to serve as leverage is your point?

 

Uh, sure. Okay.

[The Baconer]

Your vision is irrelevant. The vision of people with the power to and interest in stopping an elven monopoly is.

 

That's why first impressions and presentation are so important :>

 

 

Partnership is expensive. Coercion is cheap. If you intend to argue that the eluvians are more profitable, don't just stop because western liberal sensibilities thinks nice is natural.

 

It's not a conclusion drawn from western sensibilities, coercion being inherently more convenient than co-operation is emphatically not true.

 

 

Then the elves certainly definitely aren't going to get an economic monopoly at the expense of the security of the human kingdoms and their established economic interests.

 

That would depend entirely on whether or not the bluebloods populating said kingdoms would choose to utilize such a service.

 

 

Not, mind you, that a Chantry monopoly is even possible given the dispersion of the Eluvians to non-Chantry factions.

 

A certain, potentially Chantry-affiliated faction will likely be dealing with matters regarding the Eluvian network in the very near future.

 

 

But they all had to enter through one. That, if nothing else, is your chokepoint.

 

Which offers little value when it comes to protecting one's self from incursions via Eluvian.

 

 

Until the Carta offers their 'motivation' services and the friends and family of those workers are held hostage, beaten, or worse if the elves don't get back to work (or try to hide within the eluvian).

 

There's a number of reasons that labor strikes are a relatively recent development, and modern standards of culture that don't exist in Thedas are among them.

 

Conceptually, they aren't, their prevalence is.

 

And not even 50 years ago workers on strike faced being held hostage, beaten, and worse. "Modern standards of culture" certainly didn't offer them shelter from that, and yet they were still a popular form of resistance.

 

The point that elves aren't united enough to produce a monopoly of a transit service which isn't established enough to serve as leverage is your point?

 

Uh, no. Considering the establishment of said service for it's value as a potential avenue for social advancement is my point.

[dragonflight288]

 

 

 

It's not a conclusion drawn from western sensibilities, coercion being inherently more convenient than co-operation is emphatically not true.

 

When you take into account the pride and entitlement humans, particularly nobles, have in relations to elves and their place in the world, the very idea of cooperation may not even register to them in their superiority complex. 

 

Just saying. 

[The Baconer]

When you take into account the pride and entitlement humans, particularly nobles, have in relations to elves and their place in the world, the very idea of cooperation may not even register to them in their superiority complex. 

 

Just saying. 

 

But they understand the concept of money. When the price is high enough, they'll eat each other. Humans, elves, dwarves, doesn't matter.

[Dean_the_Young]

That's why first impressions and presentation are so important :>

 

The elves and humans have failed theirs many times over.

 

 

 

It's not a conclusion drawn from western sensibilities, coercion being inherently more convenient than co-operation is emphatically not true.

 

(A) Your argument has been framed, rested on, and appealed to implicit western sensibilities that are reflected in the desired end-staate, and ( you are misrepresenting what I am saying.

 

 

That would depend entirely on whether or not the bluebloods populating said kingdoms would choose to utilize such a service.

 

Whether they utilize the service or not, the economic and political establishments aren't going to make way for a major elven political power in their spheres of influence just because Chantry.

 

 

A certain, potentially Chantry-affiliated faction will likely be dealing with matters regarding the Eluvian network in the very near future.

 

 

The Inquisition does not have the reach or power to dictate Eluvian poliy on all the nations of Thedas.
 

 

Which offers little value when it comes to protecting one's self from incursions via Eluvian.

 

 

But does other concerns and interests, including 'who gets to profit from using this particular Eluvian.'

 

Conceptually, they aren't, their prevalence is.

 

Elves aren't prevalent. They're an impoverished, divided minority.

 

 

And not even 50 years ago workers on strike faced being held hostage, beaten, and worse. "Modern standards of culture" certainly didn't offer them shelter from that, and yet they were still a popular form of resistance.

 

Every western labor movement in the last hundred years has benefited from cultural norms and standards far, far superior to what norms and social practices the elves face. In no European country was an uncontroversial response to minority labor unrest 'raze their city quarter.'

 

Non-violent resistance is the privilege of those being oppressed by civil societies.
 

 

Uh, no. Considering the establishment of said service for it's value as a potential avenue for social advancement is my point.

 

 

You are considering a fantasy that has no plausible viability in the context of Thedas. The political unity does not exist, nor would your proposed structure withstand obvious challenges from interested parties.

 

If you're going to consider a fanfic of an imaginary means to improve elven social advancement, you might as well just make a fanfic in which the elves are already socially advanced. You'd cut out the middle man and be just as sensible.

[Who Knows]

Gaspard and Celene are both terrible.

[The Baconer]

(A) Your argument has been framed, rested on, and appealed to implicit western sensibilities that are reflected in the desired end-staate, and ( you are misrepresenting what I am saying.

 

Understood. I meant that trying to wage war with the controlling entity of the Eluvians (especially if their use is supervised by a segment of the Chantry) could very well be more costly in both lives and gold than acting as a partner or investor.

 

 

Whether they utilize the service or not, the economic and political establishments aren't going to make way for a major elven political power in their spheres of influence just because Chantry.

 

No, they'd be making way by participating in a system that has value for both parties, in a manner (conceptually) similar to the Mortalitasi of Nevarra, or the general relations between surface Dwarves and humans for their history.

 

 

The Inquisition does not have the reach or power to dictate Eluvian poliy on all the nations of Thedas.

 

The Chantry does. The Inquisition is in a position to help return the power it has recently lost.

 

 

But does other concerns and interests, including 'who gets to profit from using this particular Eluvian.'

 

True. Of course, the local lords who act as hosts to these Eluvians would also run the risk of drawing ire from their peers in their implementation of restrictions.

 

 

Elves aren't prevalent. They're an impoverished, divided minority.

 

Elves are prevalent in positions of direct servitude for the various member of the nobility. This industry would create a similar position of service, while also giving the elves more of an edge in bargaining power. There is the potential for exploitation as you said, yet at the same time the elves would be able to combat this more effectively.

 

 

In no European country was an uncontroversial response to minority labor unrest 'raze their city quarter.'

 

Very debatable. The acknowledgement of such events as controversial often came after the fact, in the face of shifting international sensibilities.

 

 

You are considering a fantasy that has no plausible viability in the context of Thedas. The political unity does not exist, nor would your proposed structure withstand obvious challenges from interested parties.

 

If you're going to consider a fanfic of an imaginary means to improve elven social advancement, you might as well just make a fanfic in which the elves are already socially advanced. You'd cut out the middle man and be just as sensible.

 

Your perspective is noted.

[Spectre Impersonator]

Bumped for speculation. Do you believe this is Celene?

If so... what are your thoughts on her alterations to Orlesian fashion trends? 

[RobRam10]

Bumped for speculation. Do you believe this is Celene?

If so... what are your thoughts on her alterations to Orlesian fashion trends? 

That is not Celene. 

Celene wears a blue dress.

[lordsaren101]

Support Gaspard de Chalons. Celene is a vile schemer.

[Warden Commander Aeducan]

That is not Celene. 

Celene wears a blue dress.

Unless she pulls a Padme.