2337 Antworten in diesem Thema

[SomeoneStoleMyName]

Since noone replied to my comment, could someone share what is stopping them from just marrying and/or allying? 

Is it as mundane and simple as... they hate eachother's guts and dont want to share power?

[TheKomandorShepard]

Perhaps it is a lack of strength but you can't really compare Orzammar and Orlais. They have a different history, culture and species. No doubt their political systems are also quite different.

I can pretty much both are very smiliar political systems (only thing they have different are traditions) with that behlen was strong enough to force his will celene wasn't and was rather ruled by others not ruling others. 

[Warden Commander Aeducan]

She didn't get beaten at the Game, she got beaten because Gaspard didn't play by the rules of the Game and decided to start an open rebellion. He is a soldier after all.

As far as I know every politician doesn't always play by the rules. A person who is supposed to be shrewd politician who is good at politics and skilled at "the Game", got beaten by a soldier and someone who has inferior skill at the Game. Despite that Gaspard didn't play by the rules, I fail to see how Celene has strength to rule if she can't even control the nobles, and she also quick to lose herself and she becomes less smart as the story progress.

[Augustei]

Since noone replied to my comment, could someone share what is stopping them from just marrying and/or allying? 

Is it as mundane and simple as... they hate eachother's guts and dont want to share power?

They both have completely different opinions on the direction the empire should take, they both feel confident enough to rule in their own right and are ambtious enough to want to do so, They both have bad blood between them with the deaths of various relatives.

If Celene married Gaspard all she would be doing is bestowing legitimacy on his cause to become sole Emperor. The result would be one of them dead.

[john-in-france]

I started TME on team Celene...by the end I was pretty much convinced that team Gaspard was the way to go.

Both are happy to play a despicable political game, however Gaspard retains a shred of decency in his given word of honour on warfare, or to another warrior. If I need help against the Elder One, I'm asking Gaspard as he would see it as dishonourable to break his word given in wartime. What he and Celene do after the Elder One is dead...well I really don't care, and if the price of Gaspards help is Celene dead...well she deserves it after her many doublecrosses and treatment of the elves including Briala.

[CapivaRasgor]

I don't know, for an Empress, Celene certainly seems ineffective at the time of a crisis. She was too easily provoked, too easily swayed, back her into a corner and she will lose her cool and act just to save face, even if doing so goes against her interests. I mean, if some nobles misbehave you tow them, back in line you don't coddle them, flex your military might a little, put some "outposts" in their lands, force some economic sanctions even threaten to revoke a title or two. She seems too concerned with noble opinion and intrigue to remember the power she has by merely being Empress.

[Augustei]

Personally I don't like Celene or Gaspard, Initially I was going for Celene since I had A high opinion of her from her codex's and mentions in the previous games, heck she was compared to Emperor Drakon for gods sakes lol.
But as I read on in TME my opinion of her declined. Also she gets no points in my book for defending Teagan because I hate that guy lol. While I do like Celenes reforms I don't think she is bright enough for the throne.
As for Gaspard, I don't think much of his plans as far as Orlesian interests are concerned but like them as far as the larger scheme of things for thedas are concerned and thats why I will support him.
Personally I don't think either of them are right for Orlais's throne though
 

[SomeoneStoleMyName]

They both have completely different opinions on the direction the empire should take, they both feel confident enough to rule in their own right and are ambtious enough to want to do so, They both have bad blood between them with the deaths of various relatives.

If Celene married Gaspard all she would be doing is bestowing legitimacy on his cause to become sole Emperor. The result would be one of them dead.

Excellent explanation, thanks!

[Lumix19]

I can pretty much both are very smiliar political systems (only thing they have different are traditions) with that behlen was strong enough to force his will celene wasn't and was rather ruled by others not ruling others. 

Well Orzammar is a single city whilst Orlais is a vast empire, much more difficult to manage for a single ruler. Orlais also has the Game where it seems power is easily taken and Celene must fight off Gaspard's claim to her throne. By contrast Bhelen was the son of the previous king and elected by a Paragon, this gives him something of an unquestionable right to rule.

 

As far as I know every politician doesn't always play by the rules. A person who is supposed to be shrewd politician who is good at politics and skilled at "the Game", got beaten by a soldier and someone who has inferior skill at the Game. Despite that Gaspard didn't play by the rules, I fail to see how Celene has strength to rule if she can't even control the nobles, and she also quick to lose herself and she becomes less smart as the story progress.

When I say the rules of the Game I mean the subtlety and diplomacy that defines the Game. Gaspard didn't have enough support to overthrow her with diplomacy so he tried to kill her on the battlefield so there would be no choice. The Game is about controlling the nobles and it seems she did so relatively well, but the racism and disinterest in helping the poor is so deeply entrenched in the nobility and there's not much you can do about that. Forcing radical change rarely ends well.

 

I don't know, for an Empress, Celene certainly seems ineffective at the time of a crisis. She was too easily provoked, too easily swayed, back her into a corner and she will lose her cool and act just to save face, even if doing so goes against her interests. I mean, if some nobles misbehave you tow them, back in line you don't coddle them, flex your military might a little, put some "outposts" in their lands, force some economic sanctions even threaten to revoke a title or two. She seems too concerned with noble opinion and intrigue to remember the power she has by merely being Empress.

This isn't about some nobles misbehaving. As said above most of the nobles of Orlais care nothing for the elves or the poor and there's not a lot Celene could do about that. Enforce radical change and the nobles are going to revolt and support someone else. Hell she had difficulty getting the University to accept non-noble people when the nobles who studied there were clearly quite stupid.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Celene is a sick, ineffective, backstabbing, manipulative politician.

 

Gaspard is a cunning, traditional, thirsty for war, honorable, keeps his word soldier. 

 

Choosing between both of them is to choose between two evils. Neither is good. You just choose the lesser of the two evils.

 

Personally, I am going with Gaspard. 

[TheKomandorShepard]

Well Orzammar is a single city whilst Orlais is a vast empire, much more difficult to manage for a single ruler. Orlais also has the Game where it seems power is easily taken and Celene must fight off Gaspard's claim to her throne. By contrast Bhelen was the son of the previous king and elected by a Paragon, this gives him something of an unquestionable right to rule.

 

It doesn't rly matter as it is about control of peoples not territory.Dwarves pretty much have very smiliar politics to the orlesian game.Celene started to lose her power because lets be honest simple gaspard is stronger leader and she is weak and don't have control over her peoples when gaspard don't have problem put peoples following him in place if they do something he doesn't like.It doesn't give him unquestionable right to rule simple because behlen and his peoples didn't care if not the warden perhaps he could simple even take over by using force. 

[RobRam10]

Is Celene going to make me Emperor of Orlais?

>Yes - Then she gets the throne.

>No - Then Gaspard gets the throne.

[Degenerate Rakia Time]

Celene is a ruthless backstabbing ******, well get along perfectly

[Vapaa]

Personally I don't like Celene or Gaspard, Initially I was going for Celene since I had A high opinion of her from her codex's and mentions in the previous games, heck she was compared to Emperor Drakon for gods sakes lol.
But as I read on in TME my opinion of her declined. Also she gets no points in my book for defending Teagan because I hate that guy lol. While I do like Celenes reforms I don't think she is bright enough for the throne.
As for Gaspard, I don't think much of his plans as far as Orlesian interests are concerned but like them as far as the larger scheme of things for thedas are concerned and thats why I will support him.
Personally I don't think either of them are right for Orlais's throne though
 

 

At first I wasn't really sold on Celene, she looked like the cookie-cutter benevolent queen with a heart of sugar, but over the course of TME we see that she's an idealist mixed with pragmatism, something I really like about her.

[Lumix19]

It doesn't rly matter as it is about control of peoples not territory.Dwarves pretty much have very smiliar politics to the orlesian game.Celene started to lose her power because lets be honest simple gaspard is stronger leader and she is weak and don't have control over her peoples when gaspard don't have problem put peoples following him in place if they do something he doesn't like.It doesn't give him unquestionable right to rule simple because behlen and his peoples didn't care if not the warden perhaps he could simple even take over by using force. 

1.) More territory naturally means more people.

2.) Dwarves have a caste system as opposed to Orlais's more fluid (but still extremely rigid) class system.

3.) Celene has unpopular policies amongst the nobles. She's moving against the current by helping the poor and the elves. By contrast Gaspard doesn't give one iota about either group and thus shares the views of the nobles. That's why the nobles began to move toward Gaspard but even then Celene still retained enough loyal nobles to prevent him from simply having her removed.

4.) Perhaps not an unquestionable right but the Dwarves have a great amount of respect for their Paragons. The support of one would make Bhelen extremely powerful. If he could take over using force he would have. Instead there's the Assembly was in deadlock over who to choose.

 

Just going to say that I admire Gaspard a great deal and was glad when Briala told Michel to spare him. However he sees things through the eyes of a soldier and a Chevalier. His sense of honor is admirable but killing your closest supporters for simply because they were dishonorable isn't going to win you any favors. He feels a war with Fereldan is what is required when a peaceful solution is possible and Nevarran aggression is pressing. Finally his traditionalist attitude towards the elves and commoners seems offensive from a moral standpoint and somewhat misaligned with his goal of making Orlais strong.

[Spectre Impersonator]

But in all honesty unless the fate of Orlais's Monarchy plays a part in stopping The Elder One, I really don't care what Celene or Gaspard does. All that matters is who can support me best.

But would it be so bad for the Elder One to purge this fallen, corrupt, and sick place called Orlais? To me, it seems there's really little to care for about this Empire. Let it burn.

[Spectre Impersonator]

She doesn't care about elves that is pretty much clear by now she is just power hungry and tries paint herself pretty and as reformist but she is nothing but power hungry and weak nobles rule her not she them and she is corrupted and support corrupted system 

At the end of the day, as long as she plays the Game, she will be a crap ruler. Gaspard plays less games and is more honest and direct. The Game is the death of Orlais. A corrupt system where fools obsessed with appearances and agendas end up deciding the fate of the Empire instead of those thinking about what's best for it's people. As you say, she is corrupt within her corrupt system and the epilogue gave no indication that she plans on changing.

What's the alternative? Gaspard forced her hand with his play. If she didn't do it, he would have (after his coronation of course).

The alternative is to follow through with Briala's plan that was already in motion and working fine. Kill the noble responsible for Lemet's death and subtly quiet the rebellion from within. Then Gaspard and the alarmists look like fools when there is no urgent rebellion to quell and Celene plays it off as though she took care of it. Briala was on the verge of success when Celene showed up and killed everyone trying to look tough.

[DuskWanderer]

Given the choice been her and her cousin, she's the worst. Gaspard will at least honor his deals and could be counted on to keep his word. Celene would backstab in a heartbeat. 

[raging_monkey]

The celene hate is strong here... almost humorous.

I support celene, mostly cause she is the future/present of orlais. Nobles will always moan but if they can focus on the game and weaken eachother then the world is safer.

Just let orlais fall its time for change

[Markus]

1.) More territory naturally means more people.

2.) Dwarves have a caste system as opposed to Orlais's more fluid (but still extremely rigid) class system.

3.) Celene has unpopular policies amongst the nobles. She's moving against the current by helping the poor and the elves. By contrast Gaspard doesn't give one iota about either group and thus shares the views of the nobles. That's why the nobles began to move toward Gaspard but even then Celene still retained enough loyal nobles to prevent him from simply having her removed.

4.) Perhaps not an unquestionable right but the Dwarves have a great amount of respect for their Paragons. The support of one would make Bhelen extremely powerful. If he could take over using force he would have. Instead there's the Assembly was in deadlock over who to choose.

 

Just going to say that I admire Gaspard a great deal and was glad when Briala told Michel to spare him. However he sees things through the eyes of a soldier and a Chevalier. His sense of honor is admirable but killing your closest supporters for simply because they were dishonorable isn't going to win you any favors. He feels a war with Fereldan is what is required when a peaceful solution is possible and Nevarran aggression is pressing. Finally his traditionalist attitude towards the elves and commoners seems offensive from a moral standpoint and somewhat misaligned with his goal of making Orlais strong.

 

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Celene may have been brutal when putting down Halamshiral's elven rebellion, but she only did so when her authority and reputation was being questioned.  Orlais is a land of intrigue and subtlety, so a play inferring that Celene is an elf-lover is tantamount to a bald accusation of the deepest perversion.  Remember that there are theories (and I mean, "well-researched, peer-reviewed, and rigourously-tested" theories) being taught in the University of Orlais that elves are more akin to animals than men.  An accusation like that could completely destroy Celene's credibility and reputation, which are really the only things worth protecting in the Game.

 

I'm not saying that Celene's to be blindly trusted.  She's definitely cold, and I'm not a fan of the way she's manipulated Briala, though I don't doubt she had genuine love for her.  She just loved her position, reputation, and ambitions more.

I'm pretty sure that, bound to The Game and public opinion, Celene may betray us if she sees that such an action would be in her interest.  On the other hand, if by siding with her, we get rid of Gaspard and his supporters, she may just have no reason to do such a thing.  That's the gamble we would have to make.

 

We might also be able to break Gaspard of his foolish ambition to reconquer Ferelden by siding with him, or we might not.  Again, it's a gamble.  There's also no guarantee he won't turn on us after the Breach has been closed, and the Elder One defeated.

 

In truth, I'd rather not choose either of them, but I'll probably support Celene in my first playthrough, and see how that goes.  I like some of her ideals and her vision for Orlais.  If she's apt to betray me, however, then Gaspard will be my man from then on, even though I think he's an elitist and a warhawk, and really not much better than Celene.  At least he could be trusted during a crisis.

[lil yonce]

I think people are overly critical of Celene. People blame her for seemingly "over-reacting" to the play when as clearly seen in the first chapter, when Gaspard hands his chevalier feather to Teagan, little things like this are essential to Orlesian politics. She needed to show Orlais' nobles that she wasn't being controlled by Briala/too sympathetic towards the elves.

But Celene massacred an alienage to save face - sent in her personal chevaliers to send a message, it was excessive. I mean, her throne wasn't in critical danger, so it was more to me that she was taking out an insurance policy on it with elven lives. It was the exact same with the murder of Briala's parents. At least twice, she's completely subverted what she cares for, and I just don't trust her. Her intent, yes, but not her likely actions in high pressure situations.

 

I don't like Gaspard either for the record.

[Warden Commander Aeducan]

But would it be so bad for the Elder One to purge this fallen, corrupt, and sick place called Orlais? To me, it seems there's really little to care for about this Empire. Let it burn.

I don't know about you, but among this chaos I saw the opportunity to expand my Inquisitor's power, and perhaps the Inquisitor can rule this Empire behind the curtain and change its direction for better or for worse.

Nice Jolee's avatar by the way.
 

The celene hate is strong here... almost humorous.

Having a problem with people with a different opinion, I see.

[Lumix19]

At the end of the day, as long as she plays the Game, she will be a crap ruler. Gaspard plays less games and is more honest and direct. The Game is the death of Orlais. A corrupt system where fools obsessed with appearances and agendas end up deciding the fate of the Empire instead of those thinking about what's best for it's people. As you say, she is corrupt within her corrupt system and the epilogue gave no indication that she plans on changing.

 

The alternative is to follow through with Briala's plan that was already in motion and working fine. Kill the noble responsible for Lemet's death and subtly quiet the rebellion from within. Then Gaspard and the alarmists look like fools when there is no urgent rebellion to quell and Celene plays it off as though she took care of it. Briala was on the verge of success when Celene showed up and killed everyone trying to look tough.

The Game is impossible to destroy. That's pretty much a given. It's completely corrupt I agree but even Drakon could not do it. Gaspard still plays the Game (the sword to Bann Teagan) he just did not when he began his rebellion. People who don't play the Game become victims of it. Or they're too unimportant to care.

It wasn't an attempt to look tough it was to show she wasn't being controlled or that she favored the elves too much. If she had allowed Briala to continue she might have lost her throne before the rebellion was put down. Besides how would Celene play off that that she took care of it? By admitting she had a noble assassinated because he killed an elf? I doubt the nobles would have taken that very well since they care nothing for the elves.

 

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Celene may have been brutal when putting down Halamshiral's elven rebellion, but she only did so when her authority and reputation was being questioned.  Orlais is a land of intrigue and subtlety, so a play inferring that Celene is an elf-lover is tantamount to a bald accusation of the deepest perversion.  Remember that there are theories (and I mean, "well-researched, peer-reviewed, and rigourously-tested" theories) being taught in the University of Orlais that elves are more akin to animals than men.  An accusation like that could completely destroy Celene's credibility and reputation, which are really the only things worth protecting in the Game.

 

I'm not saying that Celene's to be blindly trusted.  She's definitely cold, and I'm not a fan of the way she's manipulated Briala, though I don't doubt she had genuine love for her.  She just loved her position, reputation, and ambitions more.

I'm pretty sure that, bound to The Game and public opinion, Celene may betray us if she sees that such an action would be in here interest.  On the other hand, if by siding with her, we get rid of Gaspard and his supporters, she may just have no reason to do such a thing.  That's the gamble we would have to make.

 

We might also be able to break Gaspard of his foolish ambition to reconquer Ferelden by siding with him, or we might not.  Again, it's a gamble.

 

In truth, I'd rather not choose either of them, but I'll probably support Celene in my first playthrough, and see how that goes.  If she's apt to betray me, then Gaspard will be my man from then on, even though I think he's an elitist and a warhawk, and really not much better than Celene.  At least he can be trusted.

This one is wise.

[TheKomandorShepard]

1.) More territory naturally means more people.

2.) Dwarves have a caste system as opposed to Orlais's more fluid (but still extremely rigid) class system.

3.) Celene has unpopular policies amongst the nobles. She's moving against the current by helping the poor and the elves. By contrast Gaspard doesn't give one iota about either group and thus shares the views of the nobles. That's why the nobles began to move toward Gaspard but even then Celene still retained enough loyal nobles to prevent him from simply having her removed.

4.) Perhaps not an unquestionable right but the Dwarves have a great amount of respect for their Paragons. The support of one would make Bhelen extremely powerful. If he could take over using force he would have. Instead there's the Assembly was in deadlock over who to choose.

 

Just going to say that I admire Gaspard a great deal and was glad when Briala told Michel to spare him. However he sees things through the eyes of a soldier and a Chevalier. His sense of honor is admirable but killing your closest supporters for simply because they were dishonorable isn't going to win you any favors. He feels a war with Fereldan is what is required when a peaceful solution is possible and Nevarran aggression is pressing. Finally his traditionalist attitude towards the elves and commoners seems offensive from a moral standpoint and somewhat misaligned with his goal of making Orlais strong.

1)It doesn't rly matter as i said behlen isn't only 1 that did that loghain pulled that as well and he would get away with it if not the warden.

2)Cast system is pretty much nothing more than social system same we have in orlais from nobles to second class citizens.

3)And behlen had popular views nope he in fact had views that would ****** most peoples he pulled it off.Gaspard may not support elves but he has his code and well he won't allow someone get in his way as we saw.

4)They have also blind sense of tradition that behlen throw away and took all power for himself.Even if you give crown to harrowmont behlen still have a lot peoples under his command pretty much half of them attacks you there was good chance that simple without warden he could take power.

 

Im not fan of honor but Gaspard have strenght to stand for his goals and intentions celene don't pretty much she crawl under the table when other nobles will threat her with fingers.Gaspard is danger for ferelden what i don't like but he is very good for orlais because orlais have means to conquer ferelden when ferelden won't simple peacfully give orlais power.About elves i don't realy care but he didn't anything worse to them than celene ,to him elves are just pawns they are for celene the same.

 

 

At the end of the day, as long as she plays the Game, she will be a crap ruler. Gaspard plays less games and is more honest and direct. The Game is the death of Orlais. A corrupt system where fools obsessed with appearances and agendas end up deciding the fate of the Empire instead of those thinking about what's best for it's people. As you say, she is corrupt within her corrupt system and the epilogue gave no indication that she plans on changing.

 

The alternative is to follow through with Briala's plan that was already in motion and working fine. Kill the noble responsible for Lemet's death and subtly quiet the rebellion from within. Then Gaspard and the alarmists look like fools when there is no urgent rebellion to quell and Celene plays it off as though she took care of it. Briala was on the verge of success when Celene showed up and killed everyone trying to look tough.

True that is why orlais needs peoples like gaspard celene simple never will improve life of elves simple because she fears nobles and nobles don't want improve their lives second she supports corrupted system that have little respect for rules.Problem with gaspard that his code may weaken him but what makes him great simple that he can enforce it what makes him strong.