2341 réponses à ce sujet

[The Sauce of Awesome]

Assuming, of course, that Alistair, Loghain, and Cousland are alive to take Gaspard on.

[Steelcan]

Assuming, of course, that Alistair, Loghain, and Cousland are alive to take Gaspard on.

Gaspard's plans are pre-breach

 

I suspect the new situation shakes up existing plans a bit

[Cerulione]

It'll be nice to have a third choice, between Celene & Gaspard & all those Orlesian ranting about trivial things as a way of life, I just have the wish that we can left all Orlesian nobles to die of suffocation in a room full of stinky cheese...

[Master Warder Z_]

Gaspard's plans are pre-breach

 

I suspect the new situation shakes up existing plans a bit

 

Indeed.

 

Retake that Orlesian city from Nevarra and prepare for a few decades.

 

o.o

 

That would be my game plan anyway.

 

Focus on military industry and growth; build the economy to support it.

[Lady Artifice]

And still plays her like a fiddle the entire book.

 

Hell Celene can't even BETRAY him competently.

 

 

Okay, I'm finally back at my computer instead of my smart phone, so I can respond to this the way I'd like.

 

"playing her like a fiddle" is an exaggeration that can hardly apply without consistent success. He tricks her, sure, but not to the ends he's hoping for...Which would be be her death. Which doesn't happen, so...

 

Any claims of either one of them totally dominating any situation between them come off as biased, because the story is written deliberately so that doesn't happen. They both trick each other, and they both get lucky, unlucky...etc. 

 

More importantly, I don't care about the who is worse between Gaspard or Celene debate. It is indeed a pick your poison situation, which I imagine will contribute more to game flavor than to actual possitive/negative results. 

 

My original point was that this example from Br3admax:

 

"Noble: Gaspard! I want you to kill all the elves in the alienage! Now! 
Gaspard: No. 
N: I'll hate you!
G: Okay. I really don't care."

 

far from having "actually happened" as Br3admax claimed, would be very, very unlikely because of the plain fact that Gaspard orchestrated the situation in Halamshiral to happen. He hoped she would go to put the rebellion down just as she did, thus his saying no to doing so himself out of, what, sheer lionhearted badassery? No, not probable. And it certainly didn't "actually happen". 

 

@ Br3admax:

 

As for you not caring about the elves; I didn't assume you did. However, you brought the above scenario up with the implication that it's a point in favor of Gaspard.

 

My whole point was that your imaginary Gaspard's response is brought into question pretty heavily by his culpability in what happened to the elves at Halamshiral. I'm not debating the rightness or wrongness of it, but the actual facts of what happened.

[Xilizhra]

Spoiler

Well, this is a choice I no longer need to worry about!

[Lady Artifice]

Spoiler

Well, this is a choice I no longer need to worry about!

 

Spoiler

So we don't play kingmaker here after all?

 

 

Edit: S***. Nevermind, I don't want to know.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Spoiler

Well, this is a choice I no longer need to worry about!

Why? tell me plz

[Xilizhra]

Why? tell me plz

Spoiler

Briala, too, is a candidate to back up the Inquisition.

 

Given which adviser favors which candidate, I strongly suspect that Celene will give a major boost to Connections, Briala to Secrets, and Gaspard to Forces.

[Lady Artifice]

S***. *sigh*

[thesuperdarkone2]

Spoiler from The Last Court:

 

Spoiler

Apparently Celene had Morrigan build an eluvian for her. Wonder what will happen since Celene now has an eluvian

[Drasanil]

Spoiler from The Last Court:

 

Spoiler

Apparently Celene had Morrigan build an eluvian for her. Wonder what will happen since Celene now has an eluvian

 

Spoiler

Provide an easy entrance/exit for an assassin? The Eluvian is useless to her with out the password.

[Br3admax]

 

@ Br3admax:

 

As for you not caring about the elves; I didn't assume you did. However, you brought the above scenario up with the implication that it's a point in favor of Gaspard.

No I didn't. I said that the fact Celene was coerced into doing it is a point against her. It has nothing to do with Gaspard in the slightest. 

 

 

My whole point was that your imaginary Gaspard's response is brought into question pretty heavily by his culpability in what happened to the elves at Halamshiral. I'm not debating the rightness or wrongness of it, but the actual facts of what happened.

That Celene rolled over like the swine she is and butchered people because she's as limp as a noodle, not because of their threat, but because she has the backbone of a snail? Yep. That happened. Glad we can agree on something. 

[Master Shiori]

She supposed to be very good at politics and "the Game", but as the story on TME progress she fails constantly. That is not an example of shrewd politician.

Because the arena constantly shifts. 

 

It starts in her comfort zone (Orlesian court) and moves to battlefields and wilds of Orlais. These are the places she has no experience with and where the Game hardly matters.

[Warden Commander Aeducan]

Because the arena constantly shifts. 

 

It starts in her comfort zone (Orlesian court) and moves to battlefields and wilds of Orlais. These are the places she has no experience with and where the Game hardly matters.

That's even further justify as well as fortify my point about Celene lack of backbone or Celene's stupidity. If she is competent only in her comfort zone then she's already weak, and tbh she already made a mistake when she decides to march to Halamshiral by herself.

 

I know that's supposed to be a display of her power, but she never stops and thought for a second that it could be Gaspard's trap she about to walk straight into it, and if she is shrewd politician or very good at the Game then she can figure it out before proceed with her hasty course of actions. Celene could stay in Val Royax to counter Gaspard's plan while assembles the court, have every nobles gathered in one place before announcing that she'll send her general to quell the riot in Halamshiral, and then sending her messenger to spread the word around the city. If she can't even do what I just said then this empress of Orlais is powerless and incompetent while the Orlesian nobility overpower her. Celene walks right into Gaspard's trap, and she choose to proceed with this course of action in Val Royeaux which is her "comfort zone".

[Master Shiori]

That's even further justify as well as fortify my point about Celene lack of backbone or Celene's stupidity. If she is competent only in her comfort zone then she's already weak, and tbh she already made a mistake when she decides to march to Halamshiral by herself.

 

I know that's supposed to be a display of her power, but she never stops and thought for a second that it could be Gaspard's trap she about to walk straight into it, and if she is shrewd politician or very good at the Game then she can figure it out before proceed with her hasty course of actions. Celene could stay in Val Royax to counter Gaspard's plan while assembles the court, have every nobles gathered in one place before announcing that she'll send her general to quell the riot in Halamshiral, and then sending her messenger to spread the word around the city. If she can't even do what I just said then this empress of Orlais is powerless and incompetent while the Orlesian nobility overpower her. Celene walks right into Gaspard's trap, and she choose to proceed with this course of action in Val Royeaux which is her "comfort zone".

That has nothing to do with Celene being stupid or lacking backbone. It's to Gaspard's credit that he realized where Celene excels (court politics, the very place where she successfully keeps twarting all his schemes) and has taken steps to move to the area where he has the advantage (war and battlefield).

 

And she's well aware that Gaspard wants her to go to Halamshiral. But not doing so or letting someone else go in her place would make her appear weak. An Emperor cannot hide behind others and avoid facing problems head on. She may have faced setbacks, but she's also quickly adapted to them and found her way out of situations that looked rather bleak (the turnabout she pulled at the end shows she learned a lot about Halamshiral's politics and the character of the person in charge). 

 

Also, the fact that she's still holding out on her own by the time Inquisition starts shows she is hardly stupid or incompetent. A stupid or incompetent leader would have lost long before this point.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Spoiler

Provide an easy entrance/exit for an assassin? The Eluvian is useless to her with out the password.

Spoiler

Morrigan knows the password, so that wont be an issue.

[dragonflight288]

I have no plans at this moment to support anyone without more details from the game itself while playing it, and what they tell me, and how they can offer their support to the Inquisition and end the Breach. 

 

But if they end up like Loghain and all the Ferelden nobles who put politics and who's butt should sit on the throne over ending the Breach, I will likely focus on the mages and templars and Ferelden issues first and let them duke it out, and maybe the raining demons may help change their minds....

 

I know that's highly unlikely, but as it stands I don't like either of them. 

[Lady Artifice]

No I didn't. I said that the fact Celene was coerced into doing it is a point against her. It has nothing to do with Gaspard in the slightest. 

 

 

 

 

It has "nothing to do with Gaspard" yet you made up a fan-fictional scenario, in which Gaspard behaves in a radically different fashion from Celene. Not just that, but the action you go about using for the comparison is the one Celene is most often criticized for. And when I addressed your claim of Gaspard's supposedly different reaction, you dismissed my speculation as baseless and silly and almost immediately refocused on Celene.

 

All the while, you throw around accusations of bias like candy.

 

 

That Celene rolled over like the swine she is and butchered people because she's as limp as a noodle, not because of their threat, but because she has the backbone of a snail? Yep. That happened. Glad we can agree on something. 

 

Your argument still boils down to: "Celene sucks, and is spineless, and a worm, and a swine, and stupid, and incompetent, so there". Whether you own it when things get contentious, your anti-Celene diatribe often takes on the tonal undercurrent of "Celene sucks, therefore Gaspard is a BOSS". I'm addressing that. Your scenario example, by the way? It reads a lot more like something you might say, than something Gaspard might.

 

While you're busy hurling subjective insults and treating them like totally objective facts, keep in mind I don't argue the whole anti-Celene diatribe itself. I don't care enough for her to argue it. I just don't think a condemnation of Gaspard = an exaltation of Celene.

 

Or that the reverse should, for that matter.

[dragonflight288]

 

 

 I just don't think a condemnation of Gaspard = an exaltation of Celene.

 

One thing I've noticed over the years, that defending a single action of a person or group, or criticizing the opposition with nary a word said about the other party, often leads to supporters or detractors immediately jumping on the person who sad such. For example, stating that Gaspard is no better than Celene, he just has different flaws, tends to draw out Celene haters and Gaspard defenders to talk about how much Celene sucks, how incompetent she is, and Gaspard is better in these ways, and when the Celene supporters come out point out how little 'honor' Gaspard actually has if he disagrees with you and point out his own hypocrisy and bloodlust, which in turn draws out more Celene-haters. 

 

The same is true for Loghain debates, mage/templar debates/ elf debates and so on. 

 

Far too often, criticizing one person or group is autimatically assumed to be defense of the other. Or defense of a single action also means defense of everything about the person and every act they had done, and this leads to most of the arguments on the forums. 

 

Shame really. 

[Br3admax]

It has "nothing to do with Gaspard" yet you made up a fan-fictional scenario, in which Gaspard behaves in a radically different fashion from Celene. Not just that, but the action you go about using for the comparison is the one Celene is most often criticized for. And when I addressed your claim of Gaspard's supposedly different reaction, you dismissed my speculation as baseless and silly and almost immediately refocused on Celene.

 

All the while, you throw around accusations of bias like candy.

lolololololol. I'll say this in a way that you'll understand, since I was unclear before apparently. Gaspard might kill elves. He might enjoy it. That's great. Celene has. Why? Because she was coerced to. That makes her weak. Gaspard would do what is right for Orlais, and Gaspard would do what Gaspard wants to do. He always has. If he didn't want to purge the alienage, he wouldn't have. Celene didn't want to, but she still did because she is W-E-A-K. 

Your argument still boils down to: "Celene sucks, and is spineless, and a worm, and a swine, and stupid, and incompetent, so there". Whether you own it when things get contentious, you're anti-Celene diatribe often takes on the tonal undercurrent of "Celene sucks, therefore Gaspard is a BOSS". I'm addressing that. Your scenario example, by the way? It reads a lot more like something you might say, than something Gaspard might.

Gaspard, unlike Celene, doesn't need his elven lover to be competent. Gaspard's a boss because he's better than that bag of Orlesian manure. He doesn't need Celene to be terrible to be great. But Celene is terrible, so she no longer deserves the throne. 

 

 

 

While you're busy hurling subjective insults and treating them like totally objective facts, keep in mind I don't argue the whole anti-Celene diatribe itself. I don't care enough for her to argue it. I just don't think a condemnation of Gaspard = an exaltation of Celene.

 

 

Or that the reverse should, for that matter.

Considering I never said that, thanks for sharing your opinion with me. I've often thought the same.

 

I enjoy talking to you. Every time we speak, we become faster friends. Especially the part where you actually read what I said. Only a true friend would do that. 

[Lady Artifice]

And we're back to dripping condescension and disdain.

 

Awesome.

[Wissenschaft 2.0]

I'll be backing Celene for the reasons I've stated many times. Celene is no worst than Loghain, they live by the rule of "doing what must be done, regardless of morals" and while I don't always agree with their actions they have my respect. I'm still baiting whether to let Logian live or not in my first playthrough of DA: I. lol

 

I'll support Celene since I agree with her goals of focusing on education and the arts for the empire. And if that takes some bloody sacrifices then so be it.

[Dark Helmet]

I'll be backing Celene for the reasons I've stated many times. Celene is no worst than Loghain, they live by the rule of "doing what must be done, regardless of morals" and while I don't always agree with their actions they have my respect. I'm still baiting whether to let Logian live or not in my first playthrough of DA: I. lol

 

But Loghain has strength of will.

 

I've yet to see any evidence that Celene has that anymore.