2341 réponses à ce sujet

[Handsome Jack]

And we're back to dripping condescension and disdain.

 

Awesome.

 

Political arguments and Dragon Age seem to bring out the worst in people.

[Wissenschaft 2.0]

But Loghain has strength of will.

 

I've yet to see any evidence that Celene has that anymore.

 

Everyone says that about Celene, even Gaspard. Many have already tried to kill her and they've all failed. Some she has personally killed herself. Underestimating Celene seems like a very fatal mistake.

[Dark Helmet]

Everyone says that about Celene, even Gaspard. Many have already tried to kill her and they've all failed. Some she has personally killed herself.

 

That doesn't really have anything to do with her strength of will.

 

Loghain did the things he did because he thought it was needed to save Ferelden and damn anyone who gets in his way. Celene on the other hand does not seem to have that fortitude.

[Lady Artifice]

One thing I've noticed over the years, that defending a single action of a person or group, or criticizing the opposition with nary a word said about the other party, often leads to supporters or detractors immediately jumping on the person who sad such. For example, stating that Gaspard is no better than Celene, he just has different flaws, tends to draw out Celene haters and Gaspard defenders to talk about how much Celene sucks, how incompetent she is, and Gaspard is better in these ways, and when the Celene supporters come out point out how little 'honor' Gaspard actually has if he disagrees with you and point out his own hypocrisy and bloodlust, which in turn draws out more Celene-haters. 

 

The same is true for Loghain debates, mage/templar debates/ elf debates and so on. 

 

Far too often, criticizing one person or group is autimatically assumed to be defense of the other. Or defense of a single action also means defense of everything about the person and every act they had done, and this leads to most of the arguments on the forums. 

 

Shame really. 

 

 

True, and I can understand that reaction. I think we should try to be honest about our biases. I lean toward Celene only because of her larger perspective. She doesn't come initially from a place of thinking that war is the answer and she favors plodding growth, progress, and inclusion. That appeals to me personally, even while I abhor her as a person. Out of my say...ten or so...characters I plan on probably favoring Gaspard at least half the time. Like you said, wait for what we see in the game, right?

[Handsome Jack]

Everyone says that about Celene, even Gaspard. Many have already tried to kill her and they've all failed. Some she has personally killed herself. Underestimating Celene seems like a very fatal mistake.

 

I think the failed assassinations and such are more to the fact that she's extravagantly rich and has a personal hired army under her, since everyone in the country seems to want her dead. It's not like she's personally taking up a sword and killing anyone who opposes her, she's just throwing money and other people at them.

[Wissenschaft 2.0]

Loghain did things because he was Paranoid and had a blinding hate for Orlisan because of what happened to his Family. Attacking threats that did not exist made Loghain a fool, not a strong will leader. I can still respect his character and understand his motives though. Celene is very calculating and patient. I think its an error to mistake patience for a lack of will.

[Wissenschaft 2.0]

I think the failed assassinations and such are more to the fact that she's extravagantly rich and has a personal hired army under her, since everyone in the country seems to want her dead. It's not like she's personally taking up a sword and killing anyone who opposes her, she's just throwing money and other people at them.

I was referring to how in the book she personally kills soldiers who try to attack her. She might be rusty at it, but Celene does know how to defend herself.

[Handsome Jack]

Loghain did things because he was Paranoid and had a blinding hate for Orlisan because of what happened to his Family. Attacking threats that did not exist made Loghain a fool, not a strong will leader. I can still respect his character and understand is motives though. Celene is very calculating and patience. I think its an error to mistake patience for a lack of will.

 

You seem to think her being calculative means she's a great leader. Some of the worst leaders in history were very calculating and very patient.

[Br3admax]

But Loghain has strength of will.

 

I've yet to see any evidence that Celene has that anymore.

This. 

[Steelcan]

Loghain did things because he was Paranoid and had a blinding hate for Orlisan because of what happened to his Family. Attacking threats that did not exist made Loghain a fool, not a strong will leader. I can still respect his character and understand his motives though. Celene is very calculating and patient. I think its an error to mistake patience for a lack of will.

for someone so calculating she's remarkably manipulable

[dragonflight288]

True, and I can understand that reaction. I think we should try to be honest about our biases. I lean toward Celene only because of her larger perspective. She doesn't come initially from a place of thinking that war is the answer and she favors plodding growth, progress, and inclusion. That appeals to me personally, even while I abhor her as a person. Out of my say...ten or so...characters I plan on probably favoring Gaspard at least half the time. Like you said, wait for what we see in the game, right?

 

I'm out of likes for today, so consider this a like.

[Br3admax]

Loghain did things because he was Paranoid and had a blinding hate for Orlisan because of what happened to his Family. Attacking threats that did not exist made Loghain a fool, not a strong will leader. I can still respect his character and understand his motives though. Celene is very calculating and patient. I think its an error to mistake patience for a lack of will.

I don't care about what Loghain did. I mean I do and I often use it against him, but the reasons are respectable. The reasons Celene does just about anything, is not. 

[dragonflight288]

Before we start metagaming characters based on the novel, let's wait for the game to come out and then debate what they would and wouldn't do, what they did and didn't do and would it be for the good of Orlais or not, shall we?

 

I mean, the good of Orlais and the Empire may change from person to person. If you want to advance education, culture, and let Orlesian nobles fight each other and leave other nations alone, Celene would be the pick. If you want to support Orlais becoming stronger, probably more united, but allow the very same abuses that Orlais committed to Ferelden in the Stolen Throne, then support Gaspard. 

 

But neither are truly good people, and neither have any problems killing thousands of people. 

[Handsome Jack]

Before we start metagaming characters based on the novel, let's wait for the game to come out and then debate what they would and wouldn't do, what they did and didn't do and would it be for the good of Orlais or not, shall we?

 

I mean, the good of Orlais and the Empire may change from person to person. If you want to advance education, culture, and let Orlesian nobles fight each other and leave other nations alone, Celene would be the pick. If you want to support Orlais becoming stronger, probably more united, but allow the very same abuses that Orlais committed to Ferelden in the Stolen Throne, then support Gaspard. 

 

But neither are truly good people, and neither have any problems killing thousands of people. 

 

To be honest I've never liked or cared about Orlais to begin with. I'm still going to support Briala, probably.

[Wissenschaft 2.0]

You seem to think her being calculative means she's a great leader. Some of the worst leaders in history were very calculating and very patient.

 

I think shes a good leader (I don't know how great she is but shes better than the alternatives). I support her goals for the empire because their progressive. I also think shes so use to playing the game that she was shocked that anyone would be bold enough to use military force directly against her. The game is usually much more subtle than that. A mistake that almost cost Celene her life but she survived and seems to rebounded surprisingly quickly.

[Steelcan]

I think shes a good leader (I don't know how great she is but shes better than the alternatives). I support her goals for the empire because their progressive. I also think shes so use to playing the game that she was shocked that anyone would be bold enough to use military force directly against her. The game is usually much more subtle than that. A mistake that almost cost Celene her life but she survived and seems to rebounded surprisingly quickly.

She isn't a good leader really.

 

She can't keep the nobility in line, she can't enact her own vision, she has no experience with war, and military experience during a civil war and a crisis like the breach is more important than "can suck up pretty well"

[Wissenschaft 2.0]

I don't care about what Loghain did. I mean I do and I often use it against him, but the reasons are respectable. The reasons Celene does just about anything, is not. 

 

Huh? Loghain and Celene both do what they think they must in order to protect their nations. How are they different? Celene uses a lot of cloak and dagger in order to avoid a civil war because of how devastating that would be to her people. She always refereed to the city elves as Orlieasns. She thinks about how to improve the lives of all her citizens, commoners included. But she wants change to be slow and gradual to maintain the stability of the empire. Which I find perfectly reasonable.

So what are these unjustifiable reasons behind Celene's actions?

[Br3admax]

Before we start metagaming characters based on the novel, let's wait for the game to come out and then debate what they would and wouldn't do, what they did and didn't do and would it be for the good of Orlais or not, shall we?

I don't really care about metagaming when it concerns the fate of an empire, but I'm sure Gaspard will fill us in, so eh 

[Br3admax]

Huh? Loghain and Celene both do what they think they must in order to protect their nations. How are they different? Celene uses a lot of cloak and dagger in order to avoid a civil war because of how devastating that would be to her people. She always refereed to the city elves as Orlieasns. She thinks about how to improve the lives of all her citizens, commoners included. But she wants change to be slow and gradual to maintain the stability of the empire. Which I find perfectly reasonable.

So what are these unjustifiable reasons behind Celene's actions?

Celene does what is right for Celene. Loghain did what was right for Ferelden, something Anora thankfully shares with him. To say they are comparable is an insult to Loghain. 

[Lady Artifice]

Before we start metagaming characters based on the novel, let's wait for the game to come out and then debate what they would and wouldn't do, what they did and didn't do and would it be for the good of Orlais or not, shall we?
 
I mean, the good of Orlais and the Empire may change from person to person. If you want to advance education, culture, and let Orlesian nobles fight each other and leave other nations alone, Celene would be the pick. If you want to support Orlais becoming stronger, probably more united, but allow the very same abuses that Orlais committed to Ferelden in the Stolen Throne, then support Gaspard. 
 
But neither are truly good people, and neither have any problems killing thousands of people.

I'm out of likes, too.

So yeah, this.

[Handsome Jack]

Celene does what is right for Celene. Loghain did what was right for Ferelden, something Anora thankfully shares with him. To say they are comparable is an insult to Loghain. 

 

I disagree. Loghain and Celene both seem to do what's best for them. They don't do what is best for their countries, they do what they think is best.

[Dark Helmet]

I don't really care about metagaming when it concerns the fate of an empire, but I'm sure Gaspard will fill us in, so eh 

 

I wonder if Celene will have a tantrum when it becomes clear that she won't be keeping the throne?

 

She seems self-absorbed enough to throw a tantrum.

[Wissenschaft 2.0]

She isn't a good leader really.

 

She can't keep the nobility in line, she can't enact her own vision, she has no experience with war, and military experience during a civil war and a crisis like the breach is more important than "can suck up pretty well"

 

Plenty of famous leaders in history had no military experience in managing wars, case in point Elizabeth the first. Thats what good advisers are for.

[The Baconer]

She isn't a good leader really.

 

Does The Masked Empire really give us enough to say this with certainty? Orlais was experiencing a cultural renaissance before the events of TME, and this is after the disastrous reign of Florian.

[Wissenschaft 2.0]

Celene does what is right for Celene. Loghain did what was right for Ferelden, something Anora thankfully shares with him. To say they are comparable is an insult to Loghain. 

 

If Celene did what was right for Celene she'd have killed Gespard immediately after he tried to give her a "hunting accident". She didn't because she was trying to avoid starting a civil war which would harm her people. She thinks this to herself in the book. Unless shes lieing about her motives in her own thoughts, I'll take her word about her movities.

 

Besides, how does insisting on having commoners and elves be educated at universities serve herself despite the trouble it causes with the nobility? If she was so selfish she would just support the status quo.