Sure it is, if they can see the "help".
Letting one or two Elves into the university sets a precedent for change down the road, but does a lot more to tick off the nobility than to pacify elves in the immediate sense.
Which might explain why the elves were angry and then she cracked down. Because the nobles told her to. No wait, that's definitely what happened.
OMG, a leader made a big mistake, their incompetent. We all know great leaders never make blunders.
when that blunder is catapulting your nation into a civil war, committing genocide, and ruling at the behest of your underlings, you have ceased any claim to being a great leader
OMG, a leader made a big mistake, their incompetent. We all know great leaders never make blunders.
Not the point.
when that blunder is catapulting your nation into a civil war, committing genocide, and ruling at the behest of your underlings, you have ceased any claim to being a great leader
What nonsense, Gaspard is the one that catapulted Orlias into civil war. Celene was trying to avoid it. You make it sound like Celene marched her army at Gaspard and declared war. Celene actively tried to minimize any looting and death in putting down the Elven rebellion, so it was hardly a genocide. As for ruling at the behest of your underlings? Please, she knew full well what Briala was doing, she said so herself to Briala's face. And Celene was trying to improve conditions for everyone, not just elves that Briala mentioned.
What nonsense, Gaspard is the one that catapulted Orlias into civil war. Celene was trying to avoid it. You make it sound like Celene marched her army at Gaspard and declared war. Celene actively tried to minimize any looting and death in putting down the Elven rebellion, so it was hardly a genocide. As for ruling at the behest of your underlings? Please, she knew full well what Briala was doing, she said so herself to Briala's face. And Celene was trying to improve conditions for everyone, not just elves that Briala mentioned.
Gaspard offered her a way out, marry him, she refused causing his rebellion. I'm sure her feeble attempt to limit the damage is comforting to the hundreds or thousands who were butchered. If she wasn't beholden to her underlings why did she need to appear strong? If she was as secure in her rule as you imply, she wouldn't have needed to try and placate them.
Gaspard offered her a way out, marry him, she refused causing his rebellion.
The Empress can marry whoever the **** she wants. Treason is treason.
Marrying Gaspard so he won't pull a coup is the exact same type of appeasement and placation that many posters here criticize her for.
Right, because a woman needs to marry Gespard and then be his obedient wife. For the good of the empire! Yeah.........no.
As for the rest, I don't even know how to respond. A leader being beholden to her subjects is a foundation of democracy. So I'm not sure why its odd that Celene would listen to the concerns of her nobles and act based on them. Shes a feudal monarch, not an absolute monarch. Nobles hold a lot of power and their own armies in Orlias, ignoring them is to risk civil war.
The Empress can marry whoever the **** she wants. Treason is treason.
Marrying Gaspard so he won't pull a coup is the exact same type of appeasement and placation that many posters here criticize her for.
Congrats for her, she's been outmaneuvered. Instead of turning him down and having war, she could have married him and then had him killed as she is won't to do with people near her.
Congrats for her, she's been outmaneuvered. Instead of turning him down and having war, she could have married him and then had him killed as she is won't to do with people near her.
What? Celene never once said she wanted Briala dead. In fact, her parting words are a profession of love to Briala. However, Celene does want Michel dead because he broke his oath to serve her and his actions are prolonging this civil war. Totally understandable.
Congrats for her, she's been outmaneuvered. Instead of turning him down and having war, she could have married him and then had him killed as she is won't to do with people near her.
Exactly, but then Celene doesn't know how to play the Game, unlike Braila who obviously does. Hell,
Right, because a woman needs to marry Gespard and then be his obedient wife. For the good of the empire! Yeah.........no.
As for the rest, I don't even know how to respond. A leader being beholden to her subjects is a foundation of democracy. So I'm not sure why its odd that Celene would listen to the concerns of her nobles and act based on them. Shes a feudal monarch, not an absolute monarch. Nobles hold a lot of power and their own armies in Orlias, ignoring them is to risk civil war.
If it prevents a sundering civil war, her own personal feelings aren't really that important. Its a smart move, and would leave her in a position to take him out more covertly.
She ignored the important ones evidently, appeasing the nobles is give and take, bowing before them and putting your own agenda on hold to serve them does not a strong leader make. They should be falling in line, not openly challenging her.
What? Celene never once said she wanted Briala dead. In fact, her parting words are a profession of love to Briala. However, Celene does want Michel dead because he broke his oath to serve her and his actions are prolonging this civil war. Totally understandable.
Then she's an idiot on top of being an incompetent ruler
Congrats for her, she's been outmaneuvered. Instead of turning him down and having war, she could have married him and then had him killed as she is won't to do with people near her.
Would that stop the war, or postpone it? You think the good ol' boys in Gaspard's camp are going to shut up and stay in line when Gaspard has an "accident"?
Would that stop the war, or postpone it? You think the good ol' boys in Gaspard's camp are going to shut up and stay in line when Gaspard has an "accident"?
Kill them all. No one in Orlais works for anyone but themselves.
If it prevents a sundering civil war, her own personal feelings aren't really that important. Its a smart move, and would leave her in a position to take him out more covertly.
She ignored the important ones evidently, appeasing the nobles is give and take, bowing before them and putting your own agenda on hold to serve them does not a strong leader make. They should be falling in line, not openly challenging her.
So in other words, you want Celene to be a backstabbing wife and a ruthless tyrant? I'm very glad she not like that at all.
Would that stop the war, or postpone it? You think the good ol' boys in Gaspard's camp are going to shut up and stay in line when Gaspard has an "accident"?
postponing it in order to strengthen her own position would be preferable I suppose. And if she's good at it, they won't be in a position to rebel no matter what they want
So in other words, you want Celene to be a backstabbing wife and a ruthless tyrant? I'm very glad she not like that at all.
Much better to be fool in charge of the most powerful human empire?
Besides she's already backstabbing
Then she's an idiot on top of being an incompetent ruler
Well, Celene might be a fool for love. Though, I feel bad for her and Briala since they both did genuinely seem to love each other.
Much better to be fool in charge of the most powerful human empire?
Besides she's already backstabbing
Who did she backstab?
Well, Celene might be a fool for love. Though, I feel bad for her and Briala since they both did genuinely seem to love each other.
and Tiberius dearly loved his first wife, but when Augustus told him to divorce her and marry Julia he put his personal feelings aside and married the emperor's daughter, too bad for him, Julia was who she was
Who did she backstab?
the elves, Briala, Orlais
"Here have a university, and some fire and blood"
"Hey pet, I killed your parents"
"I'd rather have a civil war then swallow my pride"
Kill them all. No one in Orlais works for anyone but themselves.
Pull a Stalin? I thought allegedly weakening Orlais is part of what made her a bad leader in the first place.
postponing it in order to strengthen her own position would be preferable I suppose. And if she's good at it, they won't be in a position to rebel no matter what they want
That's certainly easy to say.
That's certainly easy to say.
Isn't she supposed to good at the game and whatnot? If keeping rebels from uniting against her is too tall an order maybe she should go be mayor
Pull a Stalin? I thought allegedly weakening Orlais is part of what made her a bad leader in the first place.
Dissenters holding you back make you a weak leader. A weak leader makes the entire nation weak. In Orlais, this is how politics works, so while it may not be "fair" and it certainly isn't just, it won't make them weak. Those who do not have loose alligences regret it in the end.
Dissenters holding you back make you a weak leader. A weak leader makes the entire nation weak. In Orlais, this is how politics works, so while it may not be "fair" and it certainly isn't just, it won't make them weak. Those who do not have loose alligences regret it in the end.
That's not what I meant.
Many of Gaspard's supporters are experienced vets, military hard-asses, Chevaliers etc. People who, troglodytic and Orlesian as they are, are probably more useful alive than dead. Orlais isn't going to come out stronger in the event that they are purged.
Isn't she supposed to good at the game and whatnot?
Yes, which is why she didn't marry Gaspard and then have him assassinated out of convenience.
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