Well, hurray for tyranny. Its so effective.
Yes, which is why she didn't marry Gaspard and then have him assassinated out of convenience.
If she did that it would be rather obvious that she killed Gaspard. And its not like he'd be an easy man to assassinate.
The Empress marries for political reasons, to strengthen her nation. Briala understood that and expressly told Celene to do it, but the Empress couldn't give up her elven body pillow.
Marrying Gaspard would have made Orlais stronger, but Celene refused because she is selfish. She put her own desires over the needs of the nation, and now the nation is paying for her failure.
Taking a look at the parts of orlesian society Gaspard holds sacred it is pretty impossible for me to think of him as anything other than a villain. Can't say I blame Celene for not wanting to marry him.
Taking a look at the parts of orlesian society Gaspard holds sacred it is pretty impossible for me to think of him as anything other than a villain. Can't say I blame Celene for not wanting to marry him.
I'm also quite glad Celene isn't willing to let a would be tyrant like Gaspard take the throne. He'd be terrible for orlias.
Taking a look at the parts of orlesian society Gaspard holds sacred it is pretty impossible for me to think of him as anything other than a villain. Can't say I blame Celene for not wanting to marry him.
Fortunate, then, that Gaspard wasn't the only choice. She could also have married his strongest supporter, making his rebellion all but impossible. Heck, she could have just strung the guy along until she'd shored up her position, but she refused even to do that. Celene gave Gaspard the allies and resources he needed to oppose her.
Marrying Gaspard would have made Orlais stronger, but Celene refused because she is selfish. She put her own desires over the needs of the nation, and now the nation is paying for her failure.
What does Orlais need? I can't help but be unconvinced by the claims made by a group of individuals who are chronically divorced from reality.
Fortunate, then, that Gaspard wasn't the only choice. She could also have married his strongest supporter, making his rebellion all but impossible. Heck, she could have just strung the guy along until she'd shored up her position, but she refused even to do that. Celene gave Gaspard the allies and resources he needed to oppose her.
This is on the other hand is totally true.
I'm also quite glad Celene isn't willing to let a would be tyrant like Gaspard take the throne. He'd be terrible for orlias.
doubtful
He reminds me of Trajan, who revitalized Roman conquest after a period of stagnation. His ideas on nationalizing the Circles and building a stronger military would aslo come in handy in the inevitable qunari attack
Fortunate, then, that Gaspard wasn't the only choice. She could also have married his strongest supporter, making his rebellion all but impossible. Heck, she could have just strung the guy along until she'd shored up her position, but she refused even to do that. Celene gave Gaspard the allies and resources he needed to oppose her.
Yeah, that would have been a better plan than marrying Gaspard, simply due to how there's basically nothing the two agree on. They would have continued trying to confound and outmaneuver each other even married. Meanwhile, the world burns around their ears.
doubtful
He reminds me of Trajan, who revitalized Roman conquest after a period of stagnation. His ideas on nationalizing the Circles and building a stronger military would aslo come in handy in the inevitable qunari attack
Nationalizing the Circles is a ****ing awful idea.
Nationalizing the Circles is a ****ing awful idea.
Tevinter did it.
What does Orlais need? I can't help but be unconvinced by the claims made by a group of individuals who are chronically divorced from reality.
To start, Orlais needed to not court a Civil War. It needed a noble class that, if not actively behind the monarchy, was at least ambivalent to the Throne's programs or powerless to oppose them.
Celene knew Gaspard was against her, and she knew he was gathering support. Her closest adviser, and in my opinion the real reason for her successes, spelled out the best possible method for dealing with the opposition, and Celene was too selfish to take it. She put herself before the nation. It's not even ambiguous when she does it.
Tevinter did it.
Sort of, more like they rule the country.
To start, Orlais needed to not court a Civil War. It needed a noble class that, if not actively behind the monarchy, was at least ambivalent to the Throne's programs or powerless to oppose them.
Celene knew Gaspard was against her, and she knew he was gathering support. Her closest adviser, and in my opinion the real reason for her successes, spelled out the best possible method for dealing with the opposition, and Celene was too selfish to take it. She put herself before the nation. It's not even ambiguous when she does it.
Yeah, I'm not buying that Celene should have become Gaspard pet wife for the empire's good. Hes a tyrant in the making, theres no way giving him power would be for the good of any nation.
Still out of likes.
So, like everything Baconer says.
All of the things.
Yeah, I'm not buying that Celene should have become Gaspard pet wife for the empire's good. Hes a tyrant in the making, theres no way giving him power would be for the good of any nation.
Edit: Undeservedly snarky for a Friday afternoon.
Do-Over: Gaspard wasn't the only choice. 
Marrying one of Gaspard supporters wouldn't have stopped Gaspard from starting a civil war. He wants the throne for himself, what kind of leader Celene is doesn't matter, he just wants the power of the throne for himself.
Tevinter did it.
Tevinter also nationalized their entire Chantry so that was kind of inevitable. Tevinter is also a mageocracy.
Is that a good thing? Most people don't think so.
To start, Orlais needed to not court a Civil War. It needed a noble class that, if not actively behind the monarchy, was at least ambivalent to the Throne's programs or powerless to oppose them.
Has this ever been enforceable in Orlais' style of government? Is this something you can put on Celene, or the insubordinate nobles? Or both...
Celene knew Gaspard was against her, and she knew he was gathering support. Her closest adviser, and in my opinion the real reason for her successes, spelled out the best possible method for dealing with the opposition, and Celene was too selfish to take it. She put herself before the nation. It's not even ambiguous when she does it.
How do we know that marriage was the best option, though? Gaspard's and Celene's differing strengths and weaknesses seem to compliment each other on paper, but they tend to disagree on, well, almost every policy. It seems easier for the sake of convenience but I don't really think it's conclusive as far as strengthening Orlais, especially if its rulers are constantly in a state of struggle and conflict.
Now, effectively disarming Gaspard by marrying someone else of great status like Remache but limiting their control of the throne, on the other hand...
He was thinking more about Celene marring one of the nobles courting her but in the end it wouldn't matter since that would not have stopped Gaspard.
He was thinking more about Celene marring one of the nobles courting her but in the end it wouldn't matter since that would not have stopped Gaspard.
I don't think it would have stopped him, but he would be playing from a much weaker position.
Of course, the "feather duel" is what alienated Remache in the first place (IIRC), which could have backfired in a much more significant fashion were he Celene's spouse.
Tevinter also nationalized their entire Chantry so that was kind of inevitable. Tevinter is also a mageocracy.
Is that a good thing? Most people don't think so.
Has this ever been enforceable in Orlais' style of government? Is this something you can put on Celene, or the insubordinate nobles? Or both...
How do we know that marriage was the best option, though? Gaspard's and Celene's differing strengths and weaknesses seem to compliment each other on paper, but they tend to disagree on, well, almost every policy. It seems easier for the sake of convenience but I don't really think it's conclusive as far as strengthening Orlais, especially if its rulers are constantly in a state of struggle and conflict.
Fair enough. I like the 'on paper' version, and how much it could potentially strengthen Orlais, but you're right that it could have gone any way but right.
On the other hand, I think we can agree that refusing to do anything because she was unwilling to give up her lover and her secret morning tea was pretty much a terrible thing for the ruler of a nation to do, and possibly the worst thing in this situation. She had the opportunity to at the very least delay things, and didn't even take that.
I don't think it would have stopped him, but he would be playing from a much weaker position.
Of course, the "feather duel" is what alienated Remache in the first place (IIRC), which could have backfired in a much more significant fashion were he Celene's spouse.
That was just Remache excuse for supporting Gaspard. The real reason is that he wanted his daughter to marry an emperor, Gaspard says so.
Fair enough. I like the 'on paper' version, and how much it could potentially strengthen Orlais, but you're right that it could have gone any way but right.
On the other hand, I think we can agree that refusing to do anything because she was unwilling to give up her lover and her secret morning tea was pretty much a terrible thing for the ruler of a nation to do, and possibly the worst thing in this situation. She had the opportunity to at the very least delay things, and didn't even take that.
I think the notion of being forced into political marriages is repulsive so yeah, I'm perfectly find with her refusing to do so.
I think the notion of being forced into political marriages is repulsive so yeah, I'm perfectly find with her refusing to do so.
Then you would have made a terrible monarch.
Then you would have made a terrible monarch.
Elizbeth the first never married despite all the unrest that caused in her court. Seems to have worked out just fine for her. Being a monarch doesn't mean you give up your own human emotions to rule. Also, marriage is tricky for a woman since there is the threat of losing power to man in a sexist society like medieval Europe which Thedas is based off of.
As for me being a Monarch, probably. But then again everyone on this forum would likely be terrible at it too.
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