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[Spectre Impersonator]

Orlais is an absolute monarchy, is it not? Her lands, her people.

Unless she dies of course.

[Lord Surinen]

Unless she dies of course.

It looks like I have spoiled myself, again.

[Willowhugger]

I know there is no right or wrong. The issue is simply the facts. You are there to stop the assassination on Celene, and not stopping it is not doing your job.

 

Thats the thing, though, *I* am the guy who tells people what to do.

I make my own jobs.

 

I'm President of the United States of Inquisitoria. Not a member of the Secret Service.

 

I changed the job.

 

Because I realized Celene was a ****.

[thesuperdarkone2]

I wonder how many people would support Gaspard if peace wasn't an option and he always invaded Ferelden

[Lady Mortho]

I would prefer an Empress adorned in jewels and divine frocks than a man.

[herkles]

Orlais is an absolute monarchy, is it not? Her lands, her people.

technically yes.

 

The fact that the nobles still hold sway and have a great deal of power and rights, notably through the council of heralds, show that it is not as absolute as it is on paper.

[InfinitePaths]

So I have just read TME (I know, I know, I am horribly late) and I have to say, I am baffled by the people who think Celene's and Briala's relationship is unhealthy.

 

No matter what horrible things she had done in the past Celene genuinely loves Briala, she is a caring, supportive partner.Briala was the woman whom she would give everything for, she would risk her position in the throne just to help the elves, all that just to please the woman she loved.She didn't outright  give the elves equal rights, she knew that couldn't work, she knew that wasn't possible.

 

The Dragon Age setting is cruel, unforgiving and sad.Celene was a 16 year old girl who was in a pool of sharks, her family was killed and if she didn't succeed in getting the throne, she would have surely been executed.She was taught to be cold, merciless, ruthless and killing her servants was the only exit she could see that would allow her to survive and succeed.Lady Montilion left an impression on a 16 year old girl with dead parents, who was struggling to survive.I don't blame Celene one bit. I blame the harsh world around her.

 

Celene knew the hearts of Orlesian nobles, and she couldn't just magically make elves equal to humans.But she tried.Celene and Briala weren't equals, one was the empress and one was a servant but both of them, even while playing the unfair game bound by the cruel rules, loved each other and respected each other as lovers.They truly cherished every moment they spent with each other, and that is why it was a healthy, beautiful love story to me.

 

 

In regards to Celene and her political decisions in TME...That's a different subject entirely.If looked through the lens of the Orlesian game alone, burning Halamshiral was the logical choice.The elves rebelled, the nobles condemned her, accusing her of "sympathising with the elves too much" and killing the rebellion made perfect sense.But she was no military tactician, it was beyond her comfort zone.Gaspard outsmarted her, not necessairly in the game but in militairy strategy.

 

I personally think Gaspard is an evil fool with his false sense of honor.He is arrogant and thinks that everything he does is honorable, and if not, would lead to more honorable times.He is a racist, elitist and a hypocrite who is convinced his "code of morality" is pure and just.He does abide by his code of honor, but it is stupid, unfair and limits his actions in strange, questionable ways.His code of honor teaches him to respect only certain types of people, to cherish the lives of only certain types of people and to care for only certain types of people.He is cruel, racist, ruthless and his actions are borderline evil, I don't give a flying freck if he "fights with the code of the chevaliers" and respects his vows or whatnot, when he is such a horrible, horrible man on so many different layers.Him holding the code of the chevaliers dear to his heart does not justify his other actions.I regret that Celene didn't play even dirtier in the elven ruins, why respect his honor, what do you gain from it, aside from giving Michel confidence?What is more important, satisfying the honor of some chevaliers or winning the throne and better the lives of hundrends of thousands of citizens?

 

I think Celene is a better choice by a mile, she is a competent player of the game, and with the aid of her love, Briala, she can make a gigantic cultural and societal advancement in Orlesian society.She isn't as useful to the Inquisition as Gaspard, but she dammn is more useful to Orlais.

[Master Warder Z_]

o.o Her expression was priceless.

[errantknight]

Personally I don't like Celene or Gaspard, Initially I was going for Celene since I had A high opinion of her from her codex's and mentions in the previous games, heck she was compared to Emperor Drakon for gods sakes lol.
But as I read on in TME my opinion of her declined. Also she gets no points in my book for defending Teagan because I hate that guy lol. While I do like Celenes reforms I don't think she is bright enough for the throne.
As for Gaspard, I don't think much of his plans as far as Orlesian interests are concerned but like them as far as the larger scheme of things for thedas are concerned and thats why I will support him.
Personally I don't think either of them are right for Orlais's throne though
 

Wait...you hate Teagan? He's one of the most standup guys in the franchise. Why do you hate Teagan?

 

Regarding the potential leaders and Orlais....They all suck, just llike everything else about Orlais except the art and architecture, lol. That being said, I supported Celene because she seemed less likely to be pressured into invading Ferelden. That was pretty much my only reason.

[The Ascendant]

I speak on behalf of all supporters of the True Emperor. Death to the False Empress!

[thesuperdarkone2]

I speak on behalf of all supporters of the True Emperor. Death to the False Empress!

You wear the hated colors of the Black Legion. You speak lies! Only followers of chaos believe your words. Any TRUE citizens would support Celene. Not surprising that chaos supports Gaspard.

[The Ascendant]

You wear the hated colors of the Black Legion. You speak lies! Only followers of chaos believe your words. Any TRUE citizens would support Celene. Not surprising that chaos supports Gaspard.

Our fates have already been written in the Warp. And yours is death.

Seriously though I would love to go on a wyvern hunt with Gaspard. We'd get high on aque lucidius and have ourselves a blast. Good times.

[Steelcan]

So I have just read TME (I know, I know, I am horribly late) and I have to say, I am baffled by the people who think Celene's and Briala's relationship is unhealthy.

 

No matter what horrible things she had done in the past Celene genuinely loves Briala, she is a caring, supportive partner.Briala was the woman whom she would give everything for, she would risk her position in the throne just to help the elves, all that just to please the woman she loved.She didn't outright  give the elves equal rights, she knew that couldn't work, she knew that wasn't possible.

 

The Dragon Age setting is cruel, unforgiving and sad.Celene was a 16 year old girl who was in a pool of sharks, her family was killed and if she didn't succeed in getting the throne, she would have surely been executed.She was taught to be cold, merciless, ruthless and killing her servants was the only exit she could see that would allow her to survive and succeed.Lady Montilion left an impression on a 16 year old girl with dead parents, who was struggling to survive.I don't blame Celene one bit. I blame the harsh world around her.

 

Celene knew the hearts of Orlesian nobles, and she couldn't just magically make elves equal to humans.But she tried.Celene and Briala weren't equals, one was the empress and one was a servant but both of them, even while playing the unfair game bound by the cruel rules, loved each other and respected each other as lovers.They truly cherished every moment they spent with each other, and that is why it was a healthy, beautiful love story to me.

 

 

In regards to Celene and her political decisions in TME...That's a different subject entirely.If looked through the lens of the Orlesian game alone, burning Halamshiral was the logical choice.The elves rebelled, the nobles condemned her, accusing her of "sympathising with the elves too much" and killing the rebellion made perfect sense.But she was no military tactician, it was beyond her comfort zone.Gaspard outsmarted her, not necessairly in the game but in militairy strategy.

 

I personally think Gaspard is an evil fool with his false sense of honor.He is arrogant and thinks that everything he does is honorable, and if not, would lead to more honorable times.He is a racist, elitist and a hypocrite who is convinced his "code of morality" is pure and just.He does abide by his code of honor, but it is stupid, unfair and limits his actions in strange, questionable ways.His code of honor teaches him to respect only certain types of people, to cherish the lives of only certain types of people and to care for only certain types of people.He is cruel, racist, ruthless and his actions are borderline evil, I don't give a flying freck if he "fights with the code of the chevaliers" and respects his vows or whatnot, when he is such a horrible, horrible man on so many different layers.Him holding the code of the chevaliers dear to his heart does not justify his other actions.I regret that Celene didn't play even dirtier in the elven ruins, why respect his honor, what do you gain from it, aside from giving Michel confidence?What is more important, satisfying the honor of some chevaliers or winning the throne and better the lives of hundrends of thousands of citizens?

 

I think Celene is a better choice by a mile, she is a competent player of the game, and with the aid of her love, Briala, she can make a gigantic cultural and societal advancement in Orlesian society.She isn't as useful to the Inquisition as Gaspard, but she dammn is more useful to Orlais.

Genuinely loving someone does not mean their relationship is healthy.  Celene is manipulative and secretive to Briala and expects obedience from her.

 

Gaspard flat out says he wasn't going to have her executed, married to a Ferelden maybe, but not executed.  Furthermore, assigning blame to the setting is just ridiculous, decisions are made by people, not the state of the world.

 

Yes they loved each other, no that doesn't make it healthy, Celene kept much hidden from Briala, lets not even touch the issue of Empress/servant potential pressure....

 

Gaspard played her like a fiddle and I enjoyed it thoroughly.

 

You can apply your own arbitrary sense of morality on his sense of morality but that doesn't make him evil or a fool.  He was able to use the Game that he detests to his own advantage, and garner enough support to raise a serious challenge to Celene's rule.  He is certainly not a fool.  He even offered Celene a way out, but she refused because when alll is said and done she is just as stubborn and prideful as he is.

 

The Game needs to go and its players smacked sense into. 

 

Long live Emperor Gaspard

[InfinitePaths]

Genuinely loving someone does not mean their relationship is healthy.  Celene is manipulative and secretive to Briala and expects obedience from her.

 

Gaspard flat out says he wasn't going to have her executed, married to a Ferelden maybe, but not executed.  Furthermore, assigning blame to the setting is just ridiculous, decisions are made by people, not the state of the world.

 

Yes they loved each other, no that doesn't make it healthy, Celene kept much hidden from Briala, lets not even touch the issue of Empress/servant potential pressure....

 

Gaspard played her like a fiddle and I enjoyed it thoroughly.

 

You can apply your own arbitrary sense of morality on his sense of morality but that doesn't make him evil or a fool.  He was able to use the Game that he detests to his own advantage, and garner enough support to raise a serious challenge to Celene's rule.  He is certainly not a fool.  He even offered Celene a way out, but she refused because when alll is said and done she is just as stubborn and prideful as he is.

 

The Game needs to go and its players smacked sense into. 

 

Long live Emperor Gaspard

 

Celene kept almost nothing from her except from the one information that would make her lose Briala forever, Briala was the only person Celene ever trusted aside from her champion.And even if she did hide information from her, she did what she had to, it's what empresses have to do in order to rule and part of that is manipulating and concealing information.She did not expect absolute obedience from Briala, Celene asks Briala for her feedback, opinions and ideas all the time, she treats her like an equal in their relationship, as much as she can, having the position that is unspeakably higher than Briala's.I still claim their relationship is perfectly healthy.

 

You are cherry-picking actions that Gaspard had done that are morally acceptable by your arbitrary morality and ignoring all the other actions he did.

 

So what does he do exactly?He initiates a full-on rebelion by attempting to kill Celene after he tried to become the emperor by peaceful terms  because he thinks he is a better leader and he doesn't approve of "The Game".

 

Okay, so what is the problem?He viewes the elves as little more than animals, he is completely uninterested in changing the lives of his people, his only goal is conquest (unfortunately not the same one as Iron Bull's).He cares little about people who live/think in a different way than him, he mostly respects men with titles and honor alike his own.He believes that his mindset of the chevaliers is the ultimate morality,a morality that only respects certain people in certain circumstances all while switching his tactics/honor switch on and off depending on the circumstances that fit in his head.He thinks within a small, ignorant box and is incompetent to rule Orlais, he is competent to be a great mlitary tactician, but as he admitted himself, he knows little of the matters an emperor has to do regardarding diplomacy and political decisions that affect culture, economy and society.He is an arrogant, racist man who thinks he is the ultimate hope for Orlais while in reality he is a power-hungry, cunning parasite that needs to be squished.The fact that he respects the propaganda the chevaliers taught him to call "honor" doesn't mean he is a good man and a wise, able ruler.

 

And Gaspard didn't play her like a fiddle.He won once, using his military tactics skills when Briala wasn't there to advise Celene but even after he has done so Celene and her champion managed to succeed against all odds.Celene used her wits even in the most desperate circumstances and surrounded herself with extremely competent alies(Michel, Briala and Felassan) and prevailed.Michel had no problem crushing Gaspard in the duel, even with Gaspard being magically enchaned half of the fight.The only reason why Gaspard didn't die right there was Briala.

 

 

Celene had won 1000 times before, claiming and keeping her throne, and she will again (At least in my plathrough LOL, she's dead in others haha)

[Steelcan]

Celene kept almost nothing from her except from the one information that would make her lose Briala forever, Briala was the only person Celene ever trusted aside from her champion.And even if she did hide information from her, she did what she had to, it's what empresses have to do in order to rule and part of that is manipulating and concealing information.She did not expect absolute obedience from Briala, Celene asks Briala for her feedback, opinions and ideas all the time, she treats her like an equal in their relationship, as much as she can, having the position that is unspeakably higher than Briala's.I still claim their relationship is perfectly healthy.

 

You are cherry-picking actions that Gaspard had done that are morally acceptable by your arbitrary morality and ignoring all the other actions he did.

 

So what does he do exactly?He initiates a full-on rebelion by attempting to kill Celene after he tried to become the emperor by peaceful terms  because he thinks he is a better leader and he doesn't approve of "The Game".

 

Okay, so what is the problem?He viewes the elves as little more than animals, he is completely uninterested in changing the lives of his people, his only goal is conquest (unfortunately not the same one as Iron Bull's).He cares little about people who live/think in a different way than him, he mostly respects men with titles and honor alike his own.He believes that his mindset of the chevaliers is the ultimate morality,a morality that only respects certain people in certain circumstances all while switching his tactics/honor switch on and off depending on the circumstances that fit in his head.He thinks within a small, ignorant box and is incompetent to rule Orlais, he is competent to be a great mlitary tactician, but as he admitted himself, he knows little of the matters an emperor has to do regardarding diplomacy and political decisions that affect culture, economy and society.He is an arrogant, racist man who thinks he is the ultimate hope for Orlais while in reality he is a power-hungry, cunning parasite that needs to be squished.The fact that he respects the propaganda the chevaliers taught him to call "honor" doesn't mean he is a good man and a wise, able ruler.

 

And Gaspard didn't play her like a fiddle.He won once, using his military tactics skills when Briala wasn't there to advise Celene but even after he has done so Celene and her champion managed to succeed against all odds.Celene used her wits even in the most desperate circumstances and surrounded herself with extremely competent alies(Michel, Briala and Felassan) and prevailed.Michel had no problem crushing Gaspard in the duel, even with Gaspard being magically enchaned half of the fight.The only reason why Gaspard didn't die right there was Briala.

 

 

Celene had won 1000 times before, claiming and keeping her throne, and she will again (At least in my plathrough LOL, she's dead in others haha)

So she kept information hidden in order to keep Briala around, denying Briala the full knowledge that could affect her consent in the relationship, more than a little sketchy.  She maintains her own status quo with Briala through lies and deception, not healthy.

 

I'm saying Gaspard is not evil, I am not saying he is a shining beacon of kindness.  If a man refuses to torture, kills his own men who break truces, but also starts a war etc... saying he's not evil is not the same as saying he's good.  He is no better or worse than any other Orlesian ruler, with the added addition of his code of Honor, that you rightly say is fairly incomplete and only pertains to certain actions, but at least he has one.

 

I'd say attempting a peaceful solution before declaring war is a pretty commendable action.

 

You keep mentioning the elves, yet he's not overtly racist towards them.  He doesn't care about them, but that's different from actively trying to stamp them out (like burning their Alienages down...).  He focuses on what he knows and what he's good at, I do not fault him for that.

 

You keep condemning the chevalier code of conduct, but as our western culture has loved to bash into our brains over the past few decades, morality is relative.  Condemning his actions as evil is a fairly arbitrary decree coming from your own morality, no different than his code. 

 

Celene was played, plain and simple.  Gaspard got her to do exactly what he wanted.  If Celene is so incompetent to have to rely on a jumped up brigand then she has no business running the empire. 

 

Michel beat Gaspard in a fair fight, Gaspard acknowledges this, and even decides to keep his secret (he's also in his 60's so I give him props for not being wiped out immediately)

 

Celene won a few times in her life, such as when she robbed Gaspard of his birthright, other times she doesn't win, like when she gets a dagger in her back

[SerBlacky]

I wouldn't call Gaspard evil.

I don't understand people calling Celene incompetent or "evilz" either.

They're both good characters in TME (their DA:I characterization is another matter) with their qualities and shortcomings.

 

Gaspard flat out says he wasn't going to have her executed, married to a Ferelden maybe, but not executed.  Furthermore, assigning blame to the setting is just ridiculous, decisions are made by people, not the state of the world.

 

To be fair, she had good reasons to believe her life was in danger at the time (possible retaliation for Gaspard's wife death by Gaspard or someone from Gaspard side, Florian supporters wanting to deprive her of any support and leaving her vulnerable, as we saw with Duke Prosper being sent away).

[DuskWanderer]

Considering that Celene had Briala's parents killed, that's a major issue. Briala certainly would have, at the very least, reconsidered the relationship had she known that. After all, Briala gets her revenge for it. 

 

While none of those three are shining examples of virtue, Gaspard commands loyalty far better than Celene: Briala's as racist as the humans considering she doesn't care about them, and Celene simply cannot be trusted to keep her word. Gaspard is honestly the best choice. 

 

Orlais would prosper if all three of them worked together: Celene handled the nobility, Gaspard the chevaliers and Briala worked for the elves. But they are far too selfish and proud to accept anything less. 

[thesuperdarkone2]

Considering that Celene had Briala's parents killed, that's a major issue. Briala certainly would have, at the very least, reconsidered the relationship had she known that. After all, Briala gets her revenge for it. 

 

While none of those three are shining examples of virtue, Gaspard commands loyalty far better than Celene: Briala's as racist as the humans considering she doesn't care about them, and Celene simply cannot be trusted to keep her word. Gaspard is honestly the best choice. 

 

Orlais would prosper if all three of them worked together: Celene handled the nobility, Gaspard the chevaliers and Briala worked for the elves. But they are far too selfish and proud to accept anything less. 

Funny you should say that since Gaspard can betray the Inquisition:

 

http://youtu.be/fdaT9hu0Vr0?t=9m33s

[Barquiel]

I am not sure if Gaspard is "evil", but it is pretty impossible for me to think of him as anything other than a villain (both in the novel and in the game). His first appearance in TME is him trying to anger Teagan to cause a war with Ferelden; he's a racist and forces Celene to deal with the elven rebellion when she tried to settle things peacefully; he wanted to burn down an entire city in order to find Celene...even though it was obvious she was no longer there; he started a civil war (killing thousands of Orlesians) and put Orlais in more danger than ever in an effort to seize power for himself. And his "chevalier honor" apparently can always be warped enough to justify his actions.

[Nefla]

DA:I sure relies on players being familiar with previous games as well as the novels/comics. Characters such as Celine have no character development at all in the actual game. (and seeing as how I haven't read the novels and comics, she's a boring and generic cardboard cutout to me)

[Master Warder Z_]

Funny you should say that since Gaspard can betray the Inquisition:

http://youtu.be/fdaT9hu0Vr0?t=9m33s

Betrayal is a strong and ultimately unfitting word.

Like Celene he just ultimately ignores the inquisition if certain steps are taken.

[MikeJW]

DA:I sure relies on players being familiar with previous games as well as the novels/comics. Characters such as Celine have no character development at all in the actual game. (and seeing as how I haven't read the novels and comics, she's a boring and generic cardboard cutout to me)

 

Yep, one of the many reasons I hate the Winter Palace quest. Not read the books or novels and didn't care about any of these people. Six of one, half a dozen of the other. Celene, Briala, Gaspard, Oghren, whoever really wouldnt have an impact on me.

[Timpants]

You keep mentioning the elves, yet he's not overtly racist towards them.  He doesn't care about them, but that's different from actively trying to stamp them out (like burning their Alienages down...).  He focuses on what he knows and what he's good at, I do not fault him for that.

 

I just read TME. Gaspard's plan to begin the civil war was to provoke Celene into action so she didn't look weak, so she would have to take her troops to Halamshiral to stamp out the rebellion and then he can ambush her on the way back when her troops are all tired. In other words, he planned on having them die so he could ascend to the throne. He may not have lit the torches but in my opinion his plan goes way beyond just not caring and into actively malicious

[DuskWanderer]

I am not sure if Gaspard is "evil", but it is pretty impossible for me to think of him as anything other than a villain (both in the novel and in the game). His first appearance in TME is him trying to anger Teagan to cause a war with Ferelden; he's a racist and forces Celene to deal with the elven rebellion when she tried to settle things peacefully; he wanted to burn down an entire city in order to find Celene...even though it was obvious she was no longer there; he started a civil war (killing thousands of Orlesians) and put Orlais in more danger than ever in an effort to seize power for himself. And his "chevalier honor" apparently can always be warped enough to justify his actions.

 

Except that he's not. Gaspard is not racist, and Celene needed to deal with the elven rebellion in order to get Justinia's support. 

[thesuperdarkone2]

Except that he's not. Gaspard is not racist, and Celene needed to deal with the elven rebellion in order to get Justinia's support. 

"Elves have no place in politics"

 

Gaspard says right in front of an elven Inquisitor.

 

Gaspard went full derp.