2341 réponses à ce sujet

[Br3admax]

Orlais seems to follow Cognatic/Absolute primogeniture if Gaspard simply being the eldest insured his place on the throne. 

[berelinde]

If that was the case then why did Celene literally have to swoon the council to overtake Gaspard's better claim?

Orlais isn't France, nor is it Saxon England. It's got its own rules for that kind of thing, which is why Gaspard had a chance at all. From what I've been able to gather, she didn't "swoon the council" so much as "avoid antagonizing the council," but that's kinda the point. There was no conspiracy to put Gaspard down or to elevate a questionable candidate. Gaspard's personal sense of entitlement led him to believe that his claim was stronger than it was.

 

I actually like Gaspard as much as I like Celene, if not more so, but that does not blind me to the arrogance of his assumptions.

[Br3admax]

What you're saying doesn't make any sense because Gasapad didn't "have a chance" for the throne. It was his until Celene convinced the Council otherwise. It has nothing to do with Gaspard antagonizing them. She seduced them, figuratively, and convinced them to crown her instead. 

[Master Warder Z_]

What's wrong with the world when I agree with bread

[dragonflight288]

What's wrong with the world when I agree with bread

Because I prefer water. Lol.

[Master Warder Z_]

Because I prefer water. Lol.

What.

[KaiserShep]

Frakkin' royals. Let 'em all rot in the void, I say.

[Neon Rising Winter]

What you're saying doesn't make any sense because Gasapad didn't "have a chance" for the throne. It was his until Celene convinced the Council otherwise. It has nothing to do with Gaspard antagonizing them. She seduced them, figuratively, and convinced them to crown her instead.

And this is not how the monarchy malarkey works? Because I go look at those pesky history books and that looks about right to me. First person to be coronated wins. Law, religion and history can be adjusted later to support their position.

[Master Warder Z_]

And this is not how the monarchy malarkey works?

It doesn't change the fact that until Celene meddled he was going to be the Emperor.

He was the firstborn and therefore legally had the strongest claim.

[Neon Rising Winter]

It doesn't change the fact that until Celene meddled he was going to be the Emperor.
He was the firstborn and therefore legally had the strongest claim.

You can have all the legal claims in the world, but if someone else gets their backside on that throne they can and will change the law retrospectively and you are out of there. Historically it's not one of those touchy feely careers with lots of job protection and an industrial tribunal to back you up when things go sour.

[KaiserShep]

He was the firstborn and therefore legally had the strongest claim.

 

His claim is only as strong as his capacity to retain it, in this case Celene clearly outdid him.

[Master Warder Z_]

You can have all the legal claims in the world

He does.

It's why he led a rebellion and divided the nation into civil war. Its why his faction labels Celene a usurper.

Politics, diplomacy, they failed, as did his blood.

So he used his chosen arena.

War.

And it can gain him the throne abiet not in the manner he'd have preferred.

[Boost32]

His claim is only as strong as his capacity to retain it, in this case Celene clearly outdid him.

Lady Mobtillion outplayed him, not Celene.

[KaiserShep]

Lady Mobtillion outplayed him, not Celene.

 

Well whichever. In any case, Gaspard lost, provided the Inquisitor doesn't give him a hand. I will give the guy credit. He takes his sentence to execution pretty well.

[Br3admax]

His claim is only as strong as his capacity to retain it, in this case Celene clearly outdid him.

Not really. If anything, by breaking succession and refusing to marry him, Celene only increased the chances of her family and herself losing the throne. 

 

Well whichever. In any case, Gaspard lost, provided the Inquisitor doesn't give him a hand. I will give the guy credit. He takes his sentence to execution pretty well.

Actually, considering we never see this Game play out, we can't make such statements. It clearly wasn't over just yet. 

[KaiserShep]

Not really. If anything, by breaking succession and refusing to marry him, Celene only increased the chances of her family and herself losing the throne. 

 

Doesn't really matter, because regardless of what may happen to her and her family in the future, in the meanwhile he may still lose everything in spite of his efforts.

[Master Warder Z_]

I pity the headsmen who has to execute Gaspard.

[Neon Rising Winter]

He does.
It's why he led a rebellion and divided the nation into civil war. Its why his faction labels Celene a usurper.
Politics, diplomacy, they failed, as did his blood.
So he used his chosen arena.
War.
And it can gain him the throne abiet not in the manner he'd have preferred.

None of which matters. There's many a wannabe monarch with an army who's marched up an down proclaiming the current ruler a usurper. Some made it to monarch some didn't. Right and wrong has the square root of sod all to do with it, it's can claim the throne or can't that counts.

All that happens is in game you decide which of the many people sucking up to the inquisition gets the nod. He may be a lucky lad and get the throne, an unlucky lad and get to be a puppet on the throne or a really unlucky lad and get his head put on a pike. That's the monarchy game.

[Master Warder Z_]

None of which matters.

It did answer the question of his legitimacy so I'd disagree.

[Br3admax]

Doesn't really matter, because regardless of what may happen to her and her family in the future, in the meanwhile he may still lose everything in spite of his efforts.

Well, like I just said, we don't exactly know how that little scene would have played out, because of the multiple outside influences at the Ball. You're talking as if it's an absolute that Celene would win anything other than a swift death. It'd be just as uncertain as if I said Gaspard would get anything other than the same. 

[KaiserShep]

It did answer the question of his legitimacy so I'd disagree.

 

I don't think anyone would question the legitimacy of his claim, but whether or not it weighs enough in his favor is really all that matters. It's no different than if, say, a rival country that vastly surpassed Orlais' might came in and just killed everyone on top and took siege over the lands. Might makes right would basically outdo whatever claim the late Emperor/Empress had.

[Neon Rising Winter]

It did answer the question of his legitimacy so I'd disagree.

The key thing with monarchy is winning, not running off afterwards proclaiming you would have won if it hadn't have been for those pesky usurpers.

Think of it like a person spec. Legitimacy is a desirable characteristic. Being able to take the throne is the essential one. If the question you're looking to resolve is legitimacy that's fine. If it's having the right to rule, that's not the same critter.

[Master Warder Z_]

If the question you're looking to resolve is legitimacy that's fine.

Given it prompted the discussion.

I'd say yes.

[Neon Rising Winter]

Given it prompted the discussion.
I'd say yes.

Ah, you confused me by bringing up the topic of succession, I assumed it was relevant to the discussion. Well my point was relating to that rather than who sprogged him, so fair enough.

[LightningSamus]

I noticed earlier in this thread that Bhelen supporters were in favour of Gaspard but in DA: I Bhelen supports Celene while Harrowmont supports Gaspard so i would like to know what people think of this.