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[Master Warder Z_]

It's just political.

I doubt either monarch cares who sits on the throne of Orlais beyond what they offer to the Dwarven Kingdom.

[Archdemon_Urthemiel]

It's just political.

I doubt either monarch cares who sits on the throne of Orlais beyond what they offer to the Dwarven Kingdom.

Funny how he intelligent reformer supports bhelen and the conservative failure supports Gaspard. Hints on how their rules will be like?

[Boost32]

Funny how he intelligent reformer supports bhelen and the conservative failure supports Gaspard. Hints on how their rules will be like?

No? Because they arent counterparts.
Bhelen is a reformist who rules with a iron fist and doesnt bow to any noble, he made reforms because without them Orzammar will crumble, not because he has a good heart, he is a scumbag in fact.
Harrowmont is a conservative good fellow, but he is weak and isnt prepared for the brutal dwarves' politics, he doesnt care about the casteless because he was taught it, not because he is bad, but he still a idiot.

Gaspard wants to bring the expansionism back, it can bring rinches to Orlais and he knows how to wage a war, people who thinks wars only bring bad things doesnt know nothing, war brings death but brings tecnological advancement, spoils and lands. He doesnt bow to the nobility, he crushes any resistence and bring stability to Orlais.
Celene brings a new age of enlightment to Orlais with her focus on arte and the University, she saved Orlais from going bankrupt after the war against Ferelden, she cares about the plight of elves and want to help them, but when she is pressed by the nobility she bows to them without a wince (even if it goes against what she believes), she alienates the millitary without even knowing.

[FiveThreeTen]

I don't understand that Celene is spineless with the nobility thing. At least it's not so clear cut as what people makes it out to be.

 

She didn't cater to their wishes when she rebuilt the University of Orlais (her own codex entry in DAI + codex entry in WoT vol 2).

She is said to knowing how to handle the nobility contrary to Judicael (codex entry in DAI).

She didn't cater to them either when she made Vivienne her first enchanter (see Vivienne codex entry in WoT vol 2).

Generally speaking, admitting elves and commoners into the University, admitting elven merchants into human markets doesn't cater to what the nobility want. Her so called "limitation" is that she is aware enough that going too far too quickly won't work, or at least will lead to unnecessary unrest.

Sure she made one mistake in TME, no ruler always makes the right decision.

 

Gaspard funnily enough, cater to the wishes of one part of the nobility too, Chevaliers who are for the most of them lesser nobles and second sons, but still among the most privileged in Orlais. Celene obviously doesn't cater to their tantrum enough for their taste (maybe she should have had a little or at least as most as with the Court, but I'm not sure their goals could have really align since invading Ferelden or going full on war with Nevarra wasn't something she wanted anyway).

 

Anyway, dibs on the choice in Inquistion to not matter since they sneakily introduced one member of the nobility that might have survived Reville's massacre in WoT 2.

Bet the descendant will have the throne regardless. Divine we choose will be assassinated, and the Mage/Templar war results in more or less the same worldstate.

Or we will just have vague codex entries.

[Lady Artifice]

Celene caters to the nobility as her political ruthlessness demands. She'll manipulate them into enabling her to make the changes she wants, and when she perceives a real threat to her power she'll do whatever it takes, intrigue or massacre, to avert that danger. 

 

I usually see torching Halamshiral used as evidence of her spinelessness. I don't entirely disagree that it's a form of cowardice, but it's not the meekness it's usually painted as. Celene's cowardice is sly and aggressive, fueled by her cunning. She would rather not torch Halamshiral, but she does it anyway to keep her position secure. 

 

In that, Gaspard is distinguished. He was the ultimate orchestrator of Halamshiral, since his entire plan hinged on its occurrence. He wouldn't be going against his own wishes in doing the same thing in Celene's place, he just wouldn't particularly care in the first place.

 

Whichever one of them had held the torch, the people they massacred are still dead. 

 

As for catering to the nobility as a weakness: I don't see anyone staying on the Orlesian throne without playing politics to some degree. Gaspard, for all his distaste toward the game, is just as willing to engage in it as Celene is. He just does so with his code of honor to inform how he plays. 

[Spectre Impersonator]

Well, according to the World of Thedas she ensured that Orlais remained not just a strong nation but a great one as well. That doesn't sound like a traitor to me (unlike a certain powerhungry chevalier who started a civil war for no good reason).

Idk, does having your secret lover's family butchered for the sake of power, then lying about it for decades while having sex with her seem at all traitorous?

[DuskWanderer]

I don't know if Celene is a traitor. Given that the rule of Emperor pretty much seems "Be out for #1, just don't get caught" like everyone else in that country, I can hardly fault Celene for doing so.

 

I can, however, as a ruler call her completely incompetent and spineless. And thus, I do. 

[dragonflight288]

I don't know if Celene is a traitor. Given that the rule of Emperor pretty much seems "Be out for #1, just don't get caught" like everyone else in that country, I can hardly fault Celene for doing so.

I can, however, as a ruler call her completely incompetent and spineless. And thus, I do.

I wouldn't call her that...she has a great many accomplishments. But TME does do a good job of showing she can be quite incompetent.

The issue with Orlais is that the nobility have become so insular that every one of them, despite their political machinations and skill, simply could not see an outside threat like Corypheus moving in on them and throwing things out of whack.

All they could see was their own games. The same is true of Crlene and Gaspard both.

[Barquiel]

Idk, does having your secret lover's family butchered for the sake of power, then lying about it for decades while having sex with her seem at all traitorous?

 

I thought the question is whether or not she betrayed Orlais, not if she betrayed Briala.

[Spectre Impersonator]

I thought the question is whether or not she betrayed Orlais, not if she betrayed Briala.

Does she meet the definition of "vile traitor," regardless of who got betrayed?

[thesuperdarkone2]

Does she meet the definition of "vile traitor," regardless of who got betrayed?

Well Briala seems perfectly willing to forget that so long as she learns Celene still loves her.

[Steelcan]

Well Briala seems perfectly willing to forget that so long as she learns Celene still loves her.

which is baffling

[DuskWanderer]

I wouldn't call her that...she has a great many accomplishments. But TME does do a good job of showing she can be quite incompetent.

The issue with Orlais is that the nobility have become so insular that every one of them, despite their political machinations and skill, simply could not see an outside threat like Corypheus moving in on them and throwing things out of whack.

All they could see was their own games. The same is true of Crlene and Gaspard both.

I never read TME, I'm just going from the game. Gaspard is an idiot for not seeing Florianne's scheme, but Celene was actively looking for plots and only found one when there were four (She only caught Gaspard's chevaliers. She didn't check Briala's elves, Cory, or the Fereldan mercenaries)

[thesuperdarkone2]

I never read TME, I'm just going from the game. Gaspard is an idiot for not seeing Florianne's scheme, but Celene was actively looking for plots and only found one when there were four (She only caught Gaspard's chevaliers. She didn't check Briala's elves, Cory, or the Fereldan mercenaries)

If you just go by the game, Celene's negative points are practically nonexistant. The only negative thing said about her is the alienage burning.

[KaiserShep]

If you just go by the game, Celene's negative points are practically nonexistant. The only negative thing said about her is the alienage burning.

 

Well, purging an alienage is kind of a big deal, and it's said specifically in the game that she did it, if you talk to the elven woman you save in the Royal Wing.

[Wulfram]

which is baffling

 

Maybe she's just pretending to forget because if the civil war has been resolved, then getting back in with Celene is the best result she can get.

[DuskWanderer]

If you just go by the game, Celene's negative points are practically nonexistant. The only negative thing said about her is the alienage burning.

 

There is the stuff I mentioned: That she's so willing to put her country at risk just to punish her rival shows she's, at best, as incompetent as she is petty. The fact that she will die unless you rescue her is another point against her.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Well, purging an alienage is kind of a big deal, and it's said specifically in the game that she did it, if you talk to the elven woman you save in the Royal Wing.

Considering that her opponent outright admits he's going to start a war and make Orlais expansionist if he's in power, Celene doesn't really look as bad.

[DuskWanderer]

Considering that her opponent outright admits he's going to start a war and make Orlais expansionist if he's in power, Celene doesn't really look as bad.

 

She does the same thing. He's just up front about it.

[thesuperdarkone2]

She does the same thing. He's just up front about it.

Unless you've read the books, you'd never really know them.

[DuskWanderer]

Unless you've read the books, you'd never really know them.

 

I see enough of her incompetence in the game.

[Archdemon_Urthemiel]

I see enough of her incompetence in the game.

I'd like to know what exactly he game only says

[Spectre Impersonator]

Well Briala seems perfectly willing to forget that so long as she learns Celene still loves her.

which is baffling

Baffling to the point of retconning her feelings in Weekes' novel right out of her.

[Cobra's_back]

Actually, Gaspard is Harrowmont, traditionalist, Celene IS Bhelen, reformist.

 

Gaspard is not a ruler, he's a warrior, his plan to end the civil war is...another invasion of Ferelden, I'd choose Celene any day of the week.

Good point. Ferelden is still my favorite place and I don't want another war for them.

[Cobra's_back]

I see enough of her incompetence in the game.

 

 

I didn't get that she wanted to invade Ferelden. I believe she wanted to get Calian to divorce Anora and marry her. Remember Anora couldn't have kids.