2341 réponses à ce sujet

[Cobra's_back]

which is baffling

 

I agree. Pretty hard to understand how anyone could forgive their parents being murdered.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Baffling to the point of retconning her feelings in Weekes' novel right out of her.

Not quite. Her last scene in the books with Celene shows that she still has feelings for her. I always thought it was meant to show that a reconciliation may or may not happen.

[Willowhugger]

I agree. Pretty hard to understand how anyone could forgive their parents being murdered.

 

I can't help but wonder if the murder of her family is even canon in the game since there's no mention of it.

[ArcaneEsper]

I can't help but wonder if the murder of her family is even canon in the game since there's no mention of it.

It is canon in the game. The elven servant you save towards the end (to get blackmail material on Briala) outright says so.

[berelinde]

There is the stuff I mentioned: That she's so willing to put her country at risk just to punish her rival shows she's, at best, as incompetent as she is petty. The fact that she will die unless you rescue her is another point against her.

It's a Dragon Age game. Any NPC whose life is even remotely threatened will die without the direct intervention of the protagonist. 

[German Soldier]

It's a Dragon Age game. Any NPC whose life is even remotely threatened will die without the direct intervention of the protagonist. 

Unless they are the writers pets

[fhs33721]

Unless they are the writers pets

These do not thend to be threatened in the first place though. Or the games forces the protagonist to directly intervene to save them.

[Donquijote and 59 others]

These do not thend to be threatened in the first place though. Or the games forces the protagonist to directly intervene to save them.

Except by the two queens who can be very much threatened by the protagonist but they are able to get away somehow with some weak plot armor......

yes i'm speaking of our lovely bard and the young witch

[MisterJB]

Celene is a good Empress. She cares about Orlais and its people, seeks to promote culture, to educate the masses and yet, is still ruthless enough against those who fall outside of her protection.
With the malicious influence of Briala removed, I believe she is the best option.

[Jaison1986]

Celene is a good Empress. She cares about Orlais and its people, seeks to promote culture, to educate the masses and yet, is still ruthless enough against those who fall outside of her protection.
With the malicious influence of Briala removed, I believe she is the best option.

Celene is an eager practicioner of the Orlesian game. That Alone makes HER the malicious influence

[MisterJB]

The Game is the manifestation of political conflict within Orlesian society. However, political conflict exists within every society. In fact, human life is ultimately about conflict.

Therefore, the Game is really not all that special. It's just a fact of life.

[Milan92]

Celene is a good Empress. She cares about Orlais and its people, seeks to promote culture, to educate the masses and yet, is still ruthless enough against those who fall outside of her protection.
With the malicious influence of Briala removed, I believe she is the best option.

 

I'm surprised! I always thought you were a Gaspard fan.

 

But yes, I do agree that Celene is a good choice.

[Jaison1986]

The Game is the manifestation of political conflict within Orlesian society. However, political conflict exists within every society. In fact, human life is ultimately about conflict.
Therefore, the Game is really not all that special. It's just a fact of life.

Just that no other place in Thedas has this kind of polítics. Its actually a common trope to say that when you have to do something vile and disingenuous, it's considered an "pretty orlesian thing to do". Would you also say that it's common for mages to dominante mundanes since it's just normal for the superior breed to conquer the inferior one?

[Donquijote and 59 others]

Celene is an eager practicioner of the Orlesian game. That Alone makes HER the malicious influence

So we agree long live to Briala.

[The Baconer]

Just that no other place in Thedas has this kind of polítics. Its actually a common trope to say that when you have to do something vile and disingenuous, it's considered an "pretty orlesian thing to do". Would you also say that it's common for mages to dominante mundanes since it's just normal for the superior breed to conquer the inferior one?

I think JB would emphatically agree with that statement.

[Donquijote and 59 others]

The Game is the manifestation of political conflict within Orlesian society. However, political conflict exists within every society.

The only rule it appears to have is "anything goes, as long as you win". There's nothing admirable or honorable in it, nothing that protects the common people, nothing that forbids betrayal of allies and family, nothing that places restraints on the ones who have or seek power. It is an utterly horrible environment that has no doubt had a strong influence on her personality

Celene is a product of the game

[dragonflight288]

 

The only rule it appears to have is "anything goes, as long as you win". There's nothing admirable or honorable in it, nothing that protects the common people, nothing that forbids betrayal of allies and family, nothing that places restraints on the ones who have or seek power. It is an utterly horrible environment that has no doubt had a strong influence on her personality.

 

 

That's also true in every society. Politics is the same wherever people go, and it is universally despised by everyone not playing the game.

 

As far as I can see, the difference between Orlais and everywhere else is that everywhere else at least tries to act like it isn't happening where in Orlais the murder, blackmail and backroom dealings are things to be celebrated and has become something of the national sport. 

 

Sad state of affairs no matter how it's sliced. 

[Donquijote and 59 others]

That's also true in every society. Politics is the same wherever people go, and it is universally despised by everyone not playing the game.

 

As far as I can see, the difference between Orlais and everywhere else is that everywhere else at least tries to act like it isn't happening where in Orlais the murder, blackmail and backroom dealings are things to be celebrated and has become something of the national sport. 

 

Sad state of affairs no matter how it's sliced. 

Politics in Orlais is far worst,as i said there is nothing that place restraints on those who seek power and as you said the blackmails,murdering ecc are happily celebrated as part of the game

[MisterJB]

I'm surprised! I always thought you were a Gaspard fan.

 

But yes, I do agree that Celene is a good choice.

I am a Gaspard fan. I like his personality and his character archetype. I want to go hunting wyverns with him and love how he tells Briala "He's got you, rabbit"

 

But as far as making decisions that affect the lives of everyone in Thedas, I think Celene is more suited for it.

[MisterJB]

Just that no other place in Thedas has this kind of polítics. Its actually a common trope to say that when you have to do something vile and disingenuous, it's considered an "pretty orlesian thing to do". Would you also say that it's common for mages to dominante mundanes since it's just normal for the superior breed to conquer the inferior one?

I empathically disagree with the notion that mages are a superior breed.

With that being said, I acknowledge that mages and "mundanes", being different breeds or groups or tribes or any other name you wish to use, will naturally attempt to dominate the other so long as they share the same living space.

 

Other than that, the Game may be culturally Orlesian but every nation will, inevitably, have their own political conflicts and their own skeletons in the closet.

 

[Jaison1986]

I empathically disagree with the notion that mages are a superior breed.

With that being said, I acknowledge that mages and "mundanes", being different breeds or groups or tribes or any other name you wish to use, will naturally attempt to dominate the other so long as they share the same living space.

 

Other than that, the Game may be culturally Orlesian but every nation will, inevitably, have their own political conflicts and their own skeletons in the closet.

 

What I'm doing is calling you on your contradiction. You casually dismiss the Orlesian game, saying it's just natural for politics. But if someone were to say that mages are superior then mundanes (wich they are, a trained mage is stronger then 20 people combined), and thus by natural order it elects them as the rightfully "dominant species", you would instantly disagree, stating mages are not meant to conquer, and should be contained, like you aways do. You're just using an convenient argument to dimiss Celene misdeeds.

[MisterJB]

What I'm doing is calling you on your contradiction. You casually dismiss the Orlesian game, saying it's just natural for politics. But if someone were to say that mages are superior then mundanes (wich they are, a trained mage is stronger then 20 people combined), and thus by natural order it elects them as the rightfully "dominant species", you would instantly disagree, stating mages are not meant to conquer, and should be contained, like you aways do. You're just using an convenient argument to dimiss Celene misdeeds.

Just because you are failing to understand me, doesn't mean I am contradicting myself.

First, "superiority" is highly subjective. Superior in what? Killing capability on average? Perhaps but even if a trained mage can kill 20 men, there are more than one hundred for every mage, trained or not. Therefore, their superior killing capability doesn't really translate into superior ability to dominate the world.

And what if we apply different fields of superiority? Moral? Civilization building? Intelligence? Determination? There are so many points of view from which a people need to be analysed before they can be declared "superior".

 

The Game is natural because conflict is present at every level of life. From the king who invades another nation to the merchant that lowers his prices to steal clientèle from the competition or the serpent that devours the rat, the essence of life is conflict.

Therefore, the Game is natural. The Mage-Templar war is natural and it represents another chapter of the conflict between mundanes and mages that has been waged since the dawn of mankind.

 

Since I have chosen to side with the normals, I therefore declare that mages should be controlled so that they can't control normal people such as what happens in Tevinter. And this is natural, for it is in the nature of men to contain rival groups if they can't be destroyed outright in order to protect our own group.

 

As you can see, there is no contradiction.

[Master Warder Z_]

I am a Gaspard fan. I like his personality and his character archetype. I want to go hunting wyverns with him and love how he tells Briala "He's got you, rabbit"

 

But as far as making decisions that affect the lives of everyone in Thedas, I think Celene is more suited for it.

 

I am of the opposite stance.

[AnimalBoy]

I kill Gaspard every single time. Celene or go home!

[The Baconer]

Just because you are failing to understand me, doesn't mean I am contradicting myself.
First, "superiority" is highly subjective. Superior in what? Killing capability on average? Perhaps but even if a trained mage can kill 20 men, there are more than one hundred for every mage, trained or not. Therefore, their superior killing capability doesn't really translate into superior ability to dominate the world.

But haven't you stated multiple times that mages were allowed to participate on commerce they would inevitably come to dominate through economic power? That mage-domination is the foregone conclusion of any society that does not restrict them?