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[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

Briala wasn't a fool at all for sleeping with Celene.  She got a lot of influence and power for doing it.

She's still a fool and she'll learn that no human is your friend.

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

Now, now let's not go overboard and invent new reasons to hate on Celene as if there wern't enoguh legitimate ones. Her realtionships wit Briala is/was a pretty f*cked up one that was based on lies and murder, no doubt. But you are just making stuff up now.

It's not like I'm lying anyways I read the book and Celine is manipulating her and killed her parents. And she slaughtered defenseless elves so she is evil by all rights and purposes, and she should pay for her crimes.

[Barquiel]

Briala is a fool by sleeping with her in the first place, well even she said no to the empress' face she would be in deep trouble. So she had to do whatever she says if she wanted to live and Celine doesn't even love her anyway. She just sees her as a elven sex toy nothing more nothing less, and using her as a resource instead valuing her as her lover.

 

Celene tried to send Briala away but Felassan convinced her to go back to her and help improve the lives of the elves in Orlais. And half the problems Celene runs into in TME are a direct result of her being in love with Briala...

[dragonflight288]

It's not like I'm lying anyways I read the book and Celine is manipulating her and killed her parents. And she slaughtered defenseless elves so she is evil by all rights and purposes, and she should pay for her crimes.

 

Gaspard is no better, but for different reasons. 

 

I dislike both personally, but the game makes me choose between them. 

 

I think Gaspard to be the more honest person and will live and die by a code of honor, but his inability to play nice with the people who has the power to give him the crown and play politics, as well as his racism, in addition to how exclusive his code is in regards to whom it applies to are reasons to dislike him and think him a better ruler. 

 

But ah well. I don't like any of the three personally.

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

Gaspard is no better, but for different reasons.

I dislike both personally, but the game makes me choose between them.

I think Gaspard to be the more honest person and will live and die by a code of honor, but his inability to play nice with the people who has the power to give him the crown and play politics, as well as his racism, in addition to how exclusive his code is in regards to whom it applies to are reasons to dislike him and think him a better ruler.

But ah well. I don't like any of the three personally.

If Celine really cares about the elves she would give them The Dales so all elves can live together in peace. And if a human step into their territory, the elves have the right to kill them on sight.

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

Celene tried to send Briala away but Felassan convinced her to go back to her and help improve the lives of the elves in Orlais. And half the problems Celene runs into in TME are a direct result of her being in love with Briala...

Please she's a master manipulator and treacherous and she loves no one but herself.

[Sifr]

If Celine really cares about the elves she would give them The Dales so all elves can live together in peace. And if a human step into their territory, the elves have the right to kill them on sight.

 

If she did that, she'd be deposed and someone like Gaspard who might step in to replace her, would immediately order them to be reconquered.

 

While it's never elaborated on, the Dalish boon apparently fell through according to King Alistair's dialogue in DA2. I'd guess because the bannorn probably rejected the proposal, similar to how the Chantry rejected the independence boon for the Circle as well.

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

If she did that, she'd be deposed and someone like Gaspard who might step in to replace her, would immediately order them to be reconquered.

While it's never elaborated on, the Dalish boon apparently fell through according to King Alistair's dialogue in DA2. I'd guess because the bannorn probably rejected the proposal, similar to how the Chantry rejected the independence boon for the Circle as well.

Then she should kill him! Make his death look like an accident, or execute him as an example to the nobles that she's not to be trifled with.

[sniper_arrow]

Please she's a master manipulator and treacherous and she loves no one but herself.

 

Like most politicians in real life.

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

Like most politicians in real life.

Precisely.

[Sifr]

Then she should kill him! Make his death look like an accident, or execute him as an example to the nobles that she's not to be trifled with.

 

Which would make it even more likely the rest of the Orlesian nobles would probably decide to launch a coup d'etat to overthrow her, allowing them to have a head of state who won't make their already shrinking Empire smaller by give up a huge chunk of land in southern Orlais to the Elves.

 

Nor execute anyone who points out why turning the Dales into an Elven refuge and allowing them the freedom to play The Most Dangerous Game with any shemlen who accidentally wanders in or gets to close to their borders, probably wouldn't go over well with most people? Especially the various towns, villages and inhabitants who already live in the former Dales, who'd be forced to be evicted or risk being killed for not giving up their home.

 

I agree that the Elves should be given more rights and places to settle in Thedas, but simply ceding the Dales to the Elves isn't exactly a solid plan. Historically in our world, people don't tend to like being told to leave a place they've lived all their lives. Especially when some head of state far away decided that a bunch of other people live there now, are more entitled to live there because the land once belonged to them, or an event like a war changes the border and leaves people on the "wrong" side after the conflict ends. Such things tend to end badly for everyone involved, as rather than figure out a way to live together, it devolves into a turf war over who owns what, that no-one really wanted to have.

 

If there's one thing Elves in Orlais don't need, it's more undeserved hatred from those who felt it was their fault - not Celene's - that they ended up losing their homes, livelihoods or community because the Dales were given away.

 

Not saying that it's right that the Dales were taken from the Elves in the first place, just that the matter of possibly returning it to them is more complicated than simply declaring it be so and forcing everyone to accept it. A slow recolonisation effort and/or championing the creation of blended communities, would probably be a good step to integrating the two groups, that would allow both to eventually live there with less conflicts arising.

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

Which would make it even more likely the rest of the Orlesian nobles would probably decide to launch a coup d'etat to overthrow her, allowing them to have a head of state who won't make their already shrinking Empire smaller by give up a huge chunk of land in southern Orlais to the Elves.
 
Nor execute anyone who points out why turning the Dales into an Elven refuge and allowing them the freedom to play The Most Dangerous Game with any shemlen who accidentally wanders in or gets to close to their borders, probably wouldn't go over well with most people? Especially the various towns, villages and inhabitants who already live in the former Dales, who'd be forced to be evicted or risk being killed for not giving up their home.
 
I agree that the Elves should be given more rights and places to settle in Thedas, but simply ceding the Dales to the Elves isn't exactly a solid plan. Historically in our world, people don't tend to like being told to leave a place they've lived all their lives. Especially when some head of state far away decided that a bunch of other people live there now, are more entitled to live there because the land once belonged to them, or an event like a war changes the border and leaves people on the "wrong" side after the conflict ends. Such things tend to end badly for everyone involved, as rather than figure out a way to live together, it devolves into a turf war over who owns what, that no-one really wanted to have.
 
If there's one thing Elves in Orlais don't need, it's more undeserved hatred from those who felt it was their fault - not Celene's - that they ended up losing their homes, livelihoods or community because the Dales were given away.
 
Not saying that it's right that the Dales were taken from the Elves in the first place, just that the matter of possibly returning it to them is more complicated than simply declaring it be so and forcing everyone to accept it. A slow recolonisation effort and/or championing the creation of blended communities, would probably be a good step to integrating the two groups that would allow both to eventually live there with less conflicts arising.

They want the elves to be less and that's why they want them the way are, and they're bunch of racists and evil people. If they have any love in their heart, they would make amends and atone for what they've done to them.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

They want the elves to be less and that's why they want them the way are, and they're bunch of racists and evil people. If they have any love in their heart, they would make amends and atone for what they've done to them.

Except most of the people who will be paying the price have done nothing to the elves. People like the farmers and peasants that would be kicked out of their homes so the elves can live there. Meanwhile most of the people with the mindset you describe won't lose a thing. 

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

Except most of the people who will be paying the price have done nothing to the elves. People like the farmers and peasants that would be kicked out of their homes so the elves can live there.

They'll find a way to thrive and overcome, or Solas take all elves and never to return to Thedas ever again.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

They'll find a way to thrive and overcome, or Solas take all elves and never to return to Thedas ever again.

Real world examples have proven otherwise. Plus why should they have to pay for something they didn't do? 

[Hellion Rex]

Briala is a fool by sleeping with her in the first place, well even she said no to the empress' face she would be in deep trouble. So she had to do whatever she says if she wanted to live and Celine doesn't even love her anyway. She just sees her as a elven sex toy nothing more nothing less, and using her as a resource instead valuing her as her lover.

Who cares? Both of them are pretty terrible people, as far as I'm concerned.

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

Real world examples have proven otherwise. Plus why should they have to pay for something they didn't do?

If you benefit from the misery and misfortunes of a people you are responsible.

[Sifr]

If you benefit from the misery and misfortunes of a people you are responsible.

 

So, what the Elves would be doing if they took back the Dales, since they'd be benefiting from all the humans who lost their homes?

 

(See what I mean... it's a complicated problem, eh?)

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

So, what the Elves would be doing if they took back the Dales, since they'd be benefiting from all the humans who lost their homes?

(See what I mean... it's a complicated problem, eh?)

The Dales belong to the elves anyway! I'm sure that they'll find a home.

[fhs33721]

It's not like I'm lying anyways I read the book and Celine is manipulating her and killed her parents. And she slaughtered defenseless elves so she is evil by all rights and purposes, and she should pay for her crimes.

I think you should read the book again. And pay more attention this time.

Celene didn't exactly slaughter defenseless elves, but rebelling, armed elves. They rebelled for valid reasons and it's still rutless to just kill them, but let's not pretend that Celene just marched into a peaceful alienage and started burning it for no reason. Also the book states, that her troops made an effort to leave any non-hostile elves alone.

Yes Celene is a manipulative, scheming and argualbly evil person. One has to be in order to survive being a influential noble in Orlais, because quite frankly that whole society is an absolutely horrible one to live in. She also killed Brialas parents and lied to her about it for years. But both in the book as well as in DAI it is very clear that no matter how screwed up the realtionship between them is/was, there are/were genuine feelings of love on both sides.

[Heimdall]

The Dales belong to the elves anyway! I'm sure that they'll find a home.

It isn't that simple. Most of the elves were expelled from the Dales over 700 years ago and human villagers have been settled there at this point for longer than the elven kingdom of the Dales even existed. That's seven centuries of living, dying, and scattering their loved ones' ashes. This is as much their home as it possibly could be.

[Wulfram]

The impression I got from Masked Empire was that the Dales have only a relatively small "colonial" elite ruling over an elven majority. Though the game gives a rather different impression.

Anyway, Celene does give the Dales to the Elves, or at least to Briala as Marquise

[kimgoold]

If its Unsettled lands (by Humans) is all thats required to placate Briala then Celene should give them the Arbor Wilds.These lands are feared by all who attempt to travel them so who else would come forward to settle there. Personally I think Briala despises Celene and is only her lover under sufferance to better her peoples lives; what I find really f***ed up is Briala's own Mother notices Celene's interest in her daughter and pushed her daughter to become Celene's lover; there's no evidence that Briala was even gay. In the Wicked Hearts quest she even admits that she will do anything to help her people is it really so impossible to believe she would become Celene's lover for this reason alone gay or not?.

 

I find Celene to be the perfect example of an Orlesian Noble frankly, selfish, vain and corrupt. The entire society does remind me of pre-rebublic France - even having an absolute monarch. I did put her on the throne reconciled with Briala as I think Gaspard while being a more obvious almost brutish character I wouldn't trust that man with the lives of those he considers lesser, the serfs, elves, etc.

[Heimdall]

The impression I got from Masked Empire was that the Dales have only a relatively small "colonial" elite ruling over an elven majority. Though the game gives a rather different impression.

Anyway, Celene does give the Dales to the Elves, or at least to Briala as Marquise

Masked Empire says that Halamshiral is that way, but doesn't specify for the rest of the Dales, and DAI showed us several human dominated settlements.  We know from the lore that elves were resettled throughout Thedas in the lore after the fall of the Dales.

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

I think you should read the book again. And pay more attention this time.
Celene didn't exactly slaughter defenseless elves, but rebelling, armed elves. They rebelled for valid reasons and it's still rutless to just kill them, but let's not pretend that Celene just marched into a peaceful alienage and started burning it for no reason. Also the book states, that her troops made an effort to leave any non-hostile elves alone.
Yes Celene is a manipulative, scheming and argualbly evil person. One has to be in order to survive being a influential noble in Orlais, because quite frankly that whole society is an absolutely horrible one to live in. She also killed Brialas parents and lied to her about it for years. But both in the book as well as in DAI it is very clear that no matter how screwed up the realtionship between them is/was, there are/were genuine feelings of love on both sides.

I find that highly unlikely. If you love some one you got to have someone as your equal, and Briala isn't her equal she's just a maid and Celine is empress. And calling her a rabbit proves otherwise and threatening her to whip her and the workers if they didn't get the dinner the way she wants. If I were Briala the first thing I'll do is to tell Celine I quit and I would find the Dalish to start a new life for myself. If you are an elf and you lived with racism on a racist society on and on, you'll be fed up and you want to defend your family and friends by taking a stand against your oppressor. Celine is nothing but a wolf in sheep's clothing.