2341 réponses à ce sujet

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

It isn't that simple. Most of the elves were expelled from the Dales over 700 years ago and human villagers have been settled there at this point for longer than the elven kingdom of the Dales even existed. That's seven centuries of living, dying, and scattering their loved ones' ashes. This is as much their home as it possibly could be.

It's like saying the U.S. rightfully belongs to the people of European descent despite slaughtering the Native Americans who were there first. That's how I see it.

[Heimdall]

It's like saying the U.S. rightfully belongs to the people of European descent despite slaughtering the Native Americans who were there first. That's how I see it.

I'm saying that "rightfully" doesn't even come into it. If someone has lived in a place all their life, has buried their ancestors in the land, and all that, is it really fair to evict them because of a past they do not control in favor of a people that has never even seen the land in question? That's like saying the Spanish were right to expel all Muslims from Spain because they came as conquerors.

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

I'm saying that "rightfully" doesn't even come into it. If someone has lived in a place all their life, has buried their ancestors in the land, and all that, is it really fair to evict them because of a past they do not control in favor of a people that has never even seen the land in question?

But it belongs to the elves and the humans merely stole it and claimed it was theirs. I think separation of races is the best solution for peace anyways, the elves can have The Dales, the Arbor Wilds, and the Emerald Graves. Get all elves out of human cities to go there to start a life with the people.

[Heimdall]

But it belongs to the elves and the humans merely stole it and claimed it was theirs. I think separation of races is the best solution for peace anyways, the elves can have The Dales, the Arbor Wilds, and the Emerald Graves. Get all elves out of human cities to go there to start a life with the people.

Would the elves even want that? Precedent in our own history says otherwise. During the nineteenth century, abolitionists in America concocted various schemes to solve the problems of slavery and racial disparity in one stroke by resettling free African Americans in Africa (The country of Liberia was the product of such a scheme). However most efforts simply fell apart from sheer lack of interest on the part of free African Americans who wanted greater freedom and rights within the country they knew and had built lives in, not being uprooted. Would you force the elves to comply with this?

As to the Dales belonging to the elves, how do you figure? The Dales only lasted about three centuries. At this point, the humans living there now have lived there longer than the elves ever did. Whose claim is greater then?

[Heimdall]

Wow,

In an effort not to drag this further off topic, I think Celene is the best chance the elves have for a better situation in Orlais for the foreseeable future.

[Sifr]

Would the elves even want that? Precedent in our own history says otherwise. During the nineteenth century, abolitionists in America concocted various schemes to solve the problems of slavery and racial disparity in one stroke by resettling free African Americans in Africa (The country of Liberia was the product of such a scheme). However most efforts simply fell apart from sheer lack of interest on the part of free African Americans who wanted greater freedom and rights within the country they knew and had built lives in, not being uprooted. Would you force the elves to comply with this?

As to the Dales belonging to the elves, how do you figure? The Dales only lasted about three centuries. At this point, the humans living there now have lived there longer than the elves ever did. Whose claim is greater then?

 

Plus you have to only look at something like the UN deciding after WW2 to divvy up land in the Middle East under the basis of "settling" the various historical claims on the land. A scenario that ended up failing so miserably that it lead to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and created a situation that has made life miserable for everyone involved, nor found any means of resolution in the 70 years since it began.

 

I sincerely doubt that Celene deciding to carve up Orlais to create a separate Dalish state would end up going differently. The countless other examples of these situations in our own history show you cannot just draw a line on the map and tell groups of people that they have to play nice and stick to their own assigned side. All the while ignoring all the issues that lead to the various groups having conflicts in the first place.

 

It'd be nice if you could... but life isn't that simple and there are no easy answers.

[Hellion Rex]

I find that highly unlikely. If you love some one you got to have someone as your equal, and Briala isn't her equal she's just a maid and Celine is empress. And calling her a rabbit proves otherwise and threatening her to whip her and the workers if they didn't get the dinner the way she wants. If I were Briala the first thing I'll do is to tell Celine I quit and I would find the Dalish to start a new life for myself. If you are an elf and you lived with racism on a racist society on and on, you'll be fed up and you want to defend your family and friends by taking a stand against your oppressor. Celine is nothing but a wolf in sheep's clothing.

Hardly. Love does not mean you have to be equals. It may be an unhealthy relationship (to the extreme), but those two did love each other very much. Also pretty sure Celene never called her rabbit or threatened to whip her, so not sure where you got that.

[Steelcan]

Why are we talking about how to appease the elves who are currently working with the Dread Wolf to bring ruin to the world?

 

Slaughter them all, the Maker will recognize his own

[Hellion Rex]

Why are we talking about how to appease the elves who are currently working with the Dread Wolf to bring ruin to the world?

 

Slaughter them all, the Maker will recognize his own

Quite. At this stage of the game, we have much bigger fish to fry.

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

Hardly. Love does not mean you have to be equals. It may be an unhealthy relationship (to the extreme), but those two did love each other very much. Also pretty sure Celene never called her rabbit or threatened to whip her, so not sure where you got that.

I read the book very closely and I read between the lines and came up with my own interpretation of Celine treats her like a pet and a doormat.

[Shechinah]

But it belongs to the elves and the humans merely stole it and claimed it was theirs. I think separation of races is the best solution for peace anyways, the elves can have The Dales, the Arbor Wilds, and the Emerald Graves. Get all elves out of human cities to go there to start a life with the people.

 

Except racial separation would not be a boon to all elves. Elves who've established loving families with humans would see their family forced apart.  Elves that live content lives in good villages with good communities would have to leave to make a journey to a place because their ancestors once lived there despite that they might feel no connection to it and might be miserable there.    

 

People would be forcibly relocated from their home and community to a place that they'd never known to live with people they'd never known either. Would they be allowed to practice their culture and religion adopted or would they be forced to take up a culture and faith that is foreign to them and that they might disagree with? Would they be forced to adopt an isolationist policy?

 

People would not simply get along because they are the same race: there'd still be a diversity of culture, religion and politics.

 

Basically, I do not see separation to be the best course for peace.  

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

Except that would not be a boon to some elves who've established loving families with humans or those that live content lives like some that live outside the alienages.  
 
They'd be forcibly relocated from their home and community to a place that they'd never known to live with people they'd never known either. Would they be allowed to practice their culture and religion adopted or would they be forced to take up a culture and faith that is foreign to them and that they might disagree with? Would they be forced to adopt an isolationist policy?
 
People would not simply get along because they are the same race: there'd still be a diversity of culture, religion and politics.

That's because they have human way of thinking and not their own, so they got rid of their culture, religion, and language and give the elves their way of life and religion that's not even theirs. And elves suffered from racism that leads to self hate and fighting each other, they have to get their minds right and learn their history so they will never again to repeat history and be better as a people.

[lynroy]

I read the book very closely and I read between the lines and came up with my own interpretation of Celine treats her like a pet and a doormat.

Clearly.

[Heimdall]

That's because they have human way of thinking and not their own, so they got rid of their culture, religion, and language and give the elves their way of life and religion that's not even theirs. And elves suffered from racism that leads to self hate and fighting each other, they have to get their minds right and learn their history so they will never again to repeat history and be better as a people.

What you're suggesting here is ethnocentrism, the prioritization of one cultural perspective as superior over another.  That, and you've mixed up race and culture, they are not necessarily linked.  Who are you to dictate what culture an elf should hold to?  To an elf raised in the Andrastian faith, that faith is part of their culture, the language and culture you speak of has little more meaning to an Andrastian elf than it does to a human.  They don't need to "get their minds right" because there is nothing wrong with them.  They don't hate themselves or elves in general.

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

What you're suggesting here is ethnocentrism, the prioritization of one cultural perspective as superior over another.  That, and you've mixed up race and culture, they are not necessarily linked.  Who are you to dictate what culture an elf should hold to?  To an elf raised in the Andrastian faith, that faith is part of their culture, the language and culture you speak of has little more meaning to an Andrastian elf than it does to a human.  They don't need to "get their minds right" because there is nothing wrong with them.  They don't hate themselves or elves in general.

It is something wrong with them. The humans took away that is theirs generations ago and convert them by force and that is why elves practiced the human way is because of so called humans who committed brutal genocide of their ancestors.

[Wulfram]

Masked Empire says that Halamshiral is that way, but doesn't specify for the rest of the Dales, and DAI showed us several human dominated settlements.  We know from the lore that elves were resettled throughout Thedas in the lore after the fall of the Dales.

It says "Here in the Dales, however, there were more elves than humans". The context is primarily talking about Halamshiral, but it still sounds like its intended to apply more widely.

Doesn't exclude the presence of some human villages I suppose

[Shechinah]

That's because they have human way of thinking and not their own, so they got rid of their culture, religion, and language and give the elves their way of life and religion that's not even theirs. And elves suffered from racism that leads to self hate and fighting each other, they have to get their minds right and learn their history so they will never again to repeat history and be better as a people.

 

Ah, so they should be forced to be relocated, be forced to assume a religion, be forced to assume a culture, be forced to speak a language and be forced to adopt a political view: basically, they should be forced to assume an identity with no say on the matter because others have decided that this is the right identity for them and that this identity is superior to their other one. 

 

Now that rings oddly familiar to me...
 

[Illegitimus]

If Celine really cares about the elves she would give them The Dales

 

<snort>  That requires Celine to care more about the elves than she does her own life.  And no, she doesn't care about the elves that much.  

[Heimdall]

It is something wrong with them. The humans took away that is theirs generations ago and convert them by force and that is why elves practiced the human way is because of so called humans who committed brutal genocide of their ancestors.

And now the human way is their way, they have made it their own and incorporated it into their culture.  It has  been a part of their way of life for generations, though this doesn't necessarily mean their faith is identical to that of humans.  Would you strip that from them and force them to adopt the culture that you deem they should hold?  How does that make you any better than the humans who took that from them?

[Heimdall]

It says "Here in the Dales, however, there were more elves than humans". The context is primarily talking about Halamshiral, but it still sounds like its intended to apply more widely.

Doesn't exclude the presence of some human villages I suppose

Huh, well if that was their intent they didn't execute it in game.  And the lore does say that the alienages were populated by elves expelled from the Dales.

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

Ah, so they should be forced to be relocated, be forced to assume a religion, be forced to assume a culture and be forced to adopt a political view: basically, they'd be forced to assume an identity with no say on the matter because others have decided that this is the right identity for them and that this identity is superior to their other one. 
 
Now that rings oddly familiar to me...

If someone invade your nation by converting them into their ways of language and religion, and the people refused so the invaders commited brutal regime to have people into submission. And they indoctrinate them to their way of life that spread generation after generation.

[Heimdall]

If someone invade your nation by converting them into their ways of language and religion, and the people refused so the invaders commited brutal regime to have people into submission. And they indoctrinate them to their way of life that spread generation after generation.

This assumes the elves are passive actors with no agency in the shaping of their own culture. This has never been true of any underclass group. What tends to happen is that the group in question adopts aspects of the other culture as necessary and as appeals to them, even then they interpret that culture through their own lense. For example, I am currently writing my thesis on the development of distinct forms of Christianity among African American slaves. White preachers that told them to "be obedient to thy masters" didn't get an enthusiastic audience, those that emphasized the equality of all souls before God and the promise of justice in the afterlife on the other hand... Slaves saw hell as a place inhabited primarily by white slaveholders and even used their faith to assert moral superiority over whites, it became a source of strength and confidence for their community. Christianity might have come to them from the Europeans, but they made it their own. The same can be said of various places held under European colonialism, the collide of traditions gave rise to a hybridity of cultures in its aftermath.

EDIT: For that matter, the cultural transmission is often not one way. To use my thesis example, black preachers (Even those still enslaved), gained surprisingly diverse followings from whites and blacks alike. One slave preacher I've been reading claimed that his own master and other slaveholders brought their families to attend the prayer meetings he led. So the "underclass" culture is quite capable of influencing the "dominant" culture.

[MisterJB]

Don't think we've ever actually seen any loving relationships between humans and elves...

[Gervaise]

Essentially you don't need a separate homeland for the elves, just equal treatment and respect where they currently live, which is precisely what they do not get.   Celene on her own, or any ruler, is not going to achieve this because of the long standing cultural and religious bias against the elves.   The reason why Briala chooses to go it alone in Masked Empire is because she realises that Celene will proceed with her reforms only so long as it doesn't threaten her grip on the throne but the moment it is more expedient to appease the Chantry or the nobles, then the elves can whistle for their better treatment. 

 

Look how Celene was over the rebellion.   She had agreed to let Briala go and deal with it; then Gaspard sponsors some sacrilegious play (extremely insulting to their supposed prophet) as a parody on Celene and instead of hitting back at the subject matter as being blasphemous, the Divine basically tells Celene to deal with the elf problem, or she won't deal with the mage one.    Celene, worried she is losing the backing of the nobles against Gaspard and also wanting to appease the Divine, backtracks on her original decision, marches forth and massacres the elves of Halamshiral, whether part of the rebellion or not.   Yet the whole reason they rebelled in the first place was because of the injustice of the noble being able to murder a harmless elven merchant and not called to account over it. 

 

Then there is Ferelden, held up as a much better state.   The elves there even think they are better off than in Orlais or elsewhere and yet this country has a law that says that if you kill a human defending an elf, you are committing a crime, even if it is self defence.      The Night Elves helped Maric and Loghain in their rebellion against Orlais but what thanks did they get?   The laws didn't change and then later when Loghain needs money to fund his war effort at the time of the 5th Blight, he does a deal with Tevinter to sell elves from the alienage into slavery.   Not only that but he defends his action by saying that conditions are so bad in the alienage than the elves will be better off as slaves.    The Reverend Mother gets all fired up about him interfering with a Templar's duties but selling elves into slavery is apparently okay.   Vaughan made a habit of kidnapping elven girls from the alienage, raping and then murdering them.   The Chantry had to be aware of this; a Chantry sister is actually there at your wedding when he does this and as I say, it apparently wasn't the first time, yet he was never taken to task over it.

 

Most city elves do not want to go and live elsewhere and they certainly don't want to worship the elven gods, they just want to be treated fairly but as explained back in the city elf origin, every time city elves try to improve themselves, move out of the alienage and into a better part of town, their human neighbours make life so difficult for them that they end up returning to the alienage.      The only alternative to being treated like dirt is to run away to the Dalish, the majority of whom, unlike the clan in Masked Empire, are happy to take them in.   However, not every elf can stand that sort of life (Zevran quickly became disenchanted with it and returned to his gilded cage).

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

Don't think we've ever actually seen any loving relationships between humans and elves...

There is no love between them to begin with.