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[Shechinah]

If someone invade your nation by converting them into their ways of language and religion, and the people refused so the invaders commited brutal regime to have people into submission. And they indoctrinate them to their way of life that spread generation after generation.

 

So you are in favor of indoctrination? Because forcing people to adopt a certain religion, culture, language and political attitude would be indoctrination regardless of whether or not the identity they are having forced upon them used to belong to their ancestors.

 

What about the elves that do not want to live and think like their ancestors did: are they going to be punished because they refuse to give up their identity? What if they try to leave?  

 

Your solution to indoctrination is indoctrination and see, the solution to indoctrination tends to be counter-indoctrination and counter-indoctrination tends to be about encouraging diversity of thought and encouraging the victim of indoctrination to make their own decisions.
 

[Heimdall]

Essentially you don't need a separate homeland for the elves, just equal treatment and respect where they currently live, which is precisely what they do not get.   Celene on her own, or any ruler, is not going to achieve this because of the long standing cultural and religious bias against the elves.   The reason why Briala chooses to go it alone in Masked Empire is because she realises that Celene will proceed with her reforms only so long as it doesn't threaten her grip on the throne but the moment it is more expedient to appease the Chantry or the nobles, then the elves can whistle for their better treatment.

I'd argue that its slightly more complicated in that Celene losing her grip on power would likely result in the immediate loss of all the gains made for the elves, which her opponents already oppose.

However, not every elf can stand that sort of life (Zevran quickly became disenchanted with it and returned to his gilded cage).

From his description, being a Crow trumps being an elf in Antiva.  I don't think its much of a cage in his case (Or at least, the cage is more the entanglements of being a Crow rather than being an elf)

[Gervaise]

Being a crow does beat living in the alienage, although Zevran never really experienced that, but it is still indentured servitude as he readily admits.   Zevran is about the first ex-Crow to have left and lived to tell the tale (provided he gets on well with the Warden).    According to WoT2 his father was killed by the Crows and his mother forced into prostitution to pay off his debts.  (I had thought from DAO that his mother might have been rejected by her clan and this is why she ended up in the brothel but it seems this was not the case).   The Crows seem to have controlled the brothel and what Zevran says about them purchasing him was apparently the Guildmaster paying off the outstanding debt in order to take him into his House.    So essentially he was a slave.   Just as some slaves in Tevinter seem better off than many elf peasants in the slums, he seemed better off than the average alienage elf, and I'll admit that his family would likely have been treated no different if they were from any other race, but it still doesn't seem much of an alternative lifestyle.    There is a note to say that of the eighteen boys that were purchased that year by the Guildmaster, only two survived, Zevran and Taliesen.  

[Heimdall]

Being a crow does beat living in the alienage, although Zevran never really experienced that, but it is still indentured servitude as he readily admits. Zevran is about the first ex-Crow to have left and lived to tell the tale (provided he gets on well with the Warden). According to WoT2 his father was killed by the Crows and his mother forced into prostitution to pay off his debts. (I had thought from DAO that his mother might have been rejected by her clan and this is why she ended up in the brothel but it seems this was not the case). The Crows seem to have controlled the brothel and what Zevran says about them purchasing him was apparently the Guildmaster paying off the outstanding debt in order to take him into his House. So essentially he was a slave. Just as some slaves in Tevinter seem better off than many elf peasants in the slums, he seemed better off than the average alienage elf, and I'll admit that his family would likely have been treated no different if they were from any other race, but it still doesn't seem much of an alternative lifestyle. There is a note to say that of the eighteen boys that were purchased that year by the Guildmaster, only two survived, Zevran and Taliesen.

Taliesen is more the point I was making, that his particular cage (gilded given the access to luxuries he describes) has more to do with how the Crows entrap their agents than his being an elf.

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

Essentially you don't need a separate homeland for the elves, just equal treatment and respect where they currently live, which is precisely what they do not get.   Celene on her own, or any ruler, is not going to achieve this because of the long standing cultural and religious bias against the elves.   The reason why Briala chooses to go it alone in Masked Empire is because she realises that Celene will proceed with her reforms only so long as it doesn't threaten her grip on the throne but the moment it is more expedient to appease the Chantry or the nobles, then the elves can whistle for their better treatment. 
 
Look how Celene was over the rebellion.   She had agreed to let Briala go and deal with it; then Gaspard sponsors some sacrilegious play (extremely insulting to their supposed prophet) as a parody on Celene and instead of hitting back at the subject matter as being blasphemous, the Divine basically tells Celene to deal with the elf problem, or she won't deal with the mage one.    Celene, worried she is losing the backing of the nobles against Gaspard and also wanting to appease the Divine, backtracks on her original decision, marches forth and massacres the elves of Halamshiral, whether part of the rebellion or not.   Yet the whole reason they rebelled in the first place was because of the injustice of the noble being able to murder a harmless elven merchant and not called to account over it. 
 
Then there is Ferelden, held up as a much better state.   The elves there even think they are better off than in Orlais or elsewhere and yet this country has a law that says that if you kill a human defending an elf, you are committing a crime, even if it is self defence.      The Night Elves helped Maric and Loghain in their rebellion against Orlais but what thanks did they get?   The laws didn't change and then later when Loghain needs money to fund his war effort at the time of the 5th Blight, he does a deal with Tevinter to sell elves from the alienage into slavery.   Not only that but he defends his action by saying that conditions are so bad in the alienage than the elves will be better off as slaves.    The Reverend Mother gets all fired up about him interfering with a Templar's duties but selling elves into slavery is apparently okay.   Vaughan made a habit of kidnapping elven girls from the alienage, raping and then murdering them.   The Chantry had to be aware of this; a Chantry sister is actually there at your wedding when he does this and as I say, it apparently wasn't the first time, yet he was never taken to task over it.
 
Most city elves do not want to go and live elsewhere and they certainly don't want to worship the elven gods, they just want to be treated fairly but as explained back in the city elf origin, every time city elves try to improve themselves, move out of the alienage and into a better part of town, their human neighbours make life so difficult for them that they end up returning to the alienage.      The only alternative to being treated like dirt is to run away to the Dalish, the majority of whom, unlike the clan in Masked Empire, are happy to take them in.   However, not every elf can stand that sort of life (Zevran quickly became disenchanted with it and returned to his gilded cage).

I still think the separation of races is the best solution, and thatt way the elves will have stability and seclusion to heal themselves.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Don't think we've ever actually seen any loving relationships between humans and elves...

There are cases, like the Couslands and the city elves of Highever or the Dalish clan in Rivain.

 

Then there are the multi-race institutions like the Grey Wardens, Circle of Magi, Inquisition, and even the Chantry. 

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

So you are in favor of indoctrination? Because forcing people to adopt a certain religion, culture, language and political attitude would be indoctrination regardless of whether or not the identity they are having forced upon them used to belong to their ancestors.
 
What about the elves that do not want to live and think like their ancestors did: are they going to be punished because they refuse to give up their identity? What if they try to leave?  
 
Your solution to indoctrination is indoctrination and see, the solution to indoctrination tends to be counter-indoctrination and counter-indoctrination tends to be about encouraging diversity of thought and encouraging the victim of indoctrination to make their own decisions.

I'm saying this as an example of why the indigenous people are messed up by invaders.

[Hellion Rex]

Don't think we've ever actually seen any loving relationships between humans and elves...

Outside of larger institutions that comprise multiple races, such as Grey Wardens and Circle of Magi, I'd argue that yes, you are pretty right on with that statement.

[fhs33721]

I read the book very closely and I completely ignored the actual characterization in it and instead came up with my own headcanon about how Celine treats her like a pet and a doormat.

Here I fixed that for you. No need to thank me.

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

Here I fixed that for you. No need to thank me.

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

<snort>  That requires Celine to care more about the elves than she does her own life.  And no, she doesn't care about the elves that much.

That's pretty much of what I meant. Celine is nothing but the devil pretending to be your friend and stabs you behind your back with a smile on her face.

[thesuperdarkone2]

I still think the separation of races is the best solution, and thatt way the elves will have stability and seclusion to heal themselves.

Ah typical sjw thinking. Trespasser and masked empire pretty much prove that is not true.

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

Ah typical sjw thinking. Trespasser and masked empire pretty much prove that is not true.

If you have a better way to solve the problem I would love to hear it.

[Hellion Rex]

I still think the separation of races is the best solution, and thatt way the elves will have stability and seclusion to heal themselves.

Hardly. Segregation of the races will do nothing but engender further derision and discord between them all. Especially now that we have a completely nuts elven god running around hoping to bring back the "superior" elves. 

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

Hardly. Segregation of the races will do nothing but engender further derision and discord between them all. Especially now that we have a completely nuts elven god running around hoping to bring back the "superior" elves.

With that they need a new way of thinking of what they should do as a people, if I were Solas I'll start teaching them meditation and spirituality as a recovery method to heal the minds of the lost, broken, and the ignorant. Then I'll set up a system to have unity, love, working together as a family to strengthen the elven people. The path to freedom and independence is never easy but it will be worth it on the long run.

[Steelcan]

With that they need a new way of thinking of what they should do as a people, if I were Solas I'll start teaching them meditation and spirituality as a recovery method to heal the minds of the lost, broken, and the ignorant. Then I'll set up a system to have unity, love, working together as a family to strengthen the elven people. The path to freedom and independence is never easy but it will be worth it on the long run.

and then the humans will rightly slaughter them all for following Solas

 

AEDIFIX VULT!

[ArcaneEsper]

With that they need a new way of thinking of what they should do as a people, if I were Solas I'll start teaching them meditation and spirituality as a recovery method to heal the minds of the lost, broken, and the ignorant. Then I'll set up a system to have unity, love, working together as a family to strengthen the elven people. The path to freedom and independence is never easy but it will be worth it on the long run.

This sounds beyond idealistic and naïve.

All these words "unity" "love" etc. this is all vague. In practice you can't get such a culturally diverse group of people to adopt some ambiguous ideas as though it's the solution to their problems. So long as their cultures are fundamentally different no actual, lasting Elven "kingdom" can exist.

[Xilizhra]

Personally, I think that, as long as we're forced to play ball with Thedas' terrible governmental systems, having elven rulership of the Dales will work better than ethnic separatism; the humans can still live there, provided they don't mind being led by an elf. Happily, reconciling Briala and Celene leads to just that outcome.

[TobiTobsen]

I still think the separation of races is the best solution, and thatt way the elves will have stability and seclusion to heal themselves.

 

The whole isolation and separation business brought down the Dales in the first place.  Why repeat something that wasn't working before?

[straykat]

The whole isolation and separation business brought down the Dales in the first place.  Why repeat something that wasn't working before?

 

It isn't like it's up to one person anyways. Neither Inquisitor or an Empress.

 

And it isn't one side who can do anything either. The Dalish don't necessarily want it to change. They're obstinate.... kind of part of their charm, truth be told.

 

If the world felt bigger (like D&D), I'd like more seperation of races. They're all in each other's business here though. I don't like it, but it is what it is.

 

 

Anyways, I haven't posted here, I think. I'll just say that I like Celene, despite her faults. If I were to compare her to someone, it might be Thomas Jefferson. He had scientific and social aspirations, but he was a man of his time.. and for that, he's extremely flawed. But you gotta start somewhere.

[YourFunnyUncle]

Every time I see this thread come up I just think "False dichotomy."

 

Carry on.

[straykat]

Every time I see this thread come up I just think "False dichotomy."

 

Carry on.

 

I read it as "vile traitor of Briala", but "savior of Orlais", politically.

 

If it's meant as "vile traitor of Orlais", then yeah, that's kind of weird.

[YourFunnyUncle]

I read it as "vile traitor of Briala", but "savior of Orlais", politically.

 

If it's meant as "vile traitor of Orlais", then yeah, that's kind of weird.

Well in that case she could be both so it still makes no sense as a thread title.

[straykat]

In any case, I think the times and setting itself are vile traitors in some form or another. Celene, even as the Empress, is only a small piece of the puzzle. So I'm weary of putting everything on her shoulders. The problem with elves is bigger than her. I don't ignore it, but I'd rather attack the root of the problem there. With Celene, I tend to focus on her differences with Gaspard. To me, he's a defense hawk and seemingly has less interest in things like education, as she does. So even with her faults, she's the lesser of two evils.

[German Soldier]

Outside of larger institutions that comprise multiple races, such as Grey Wardens and Circle of Magi, I'd argue that yes, you are pretty right on with that statement.

Actually what you and Misterjb said is nonsense since elves and humans live togheter under the system of the Qun and in the Tevinter system.