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Empress Celene... vile traitor OR savior of Orlais?


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#1576
Hellion Rex

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Actually what you and Misterjb said is nonsense since elves and humans live togheter under the system of the Qun and in the Tevinter system.

I'm talking about Southern Thedas where thus far all the games have taken place. Even in Tevinter though, elves don't live on the same playing field that humans do, even if they have magic. They experience an even higher level of racism up there. I don't disagree about the Qun, but one could argue that that falls under the "institutions" that I was talking about.



#1577
straykat

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Those Qun elves are boring though. As are all the others. They're not really elves or human or "Kossith" anymore. They're not even people, in the typical sense of the word. What's the point of getting along when you amount to nothing, except your duties? It brings me about as much comfort as saying Chairs and Tables get along.



#1578
Hellion Rex

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Those Qun elves are boring though. As are all the others. They're not really elves or human or "Kossith" anymore. They're not even people, in the typical sense of the word. What's the point of getting along when you amount to nothing, except your duties? It brings me about as much comfort as saying Chairs and Tables get along.

Ummmm, who cares? That doesn't stop the Qun from being race blind, which was the only reason they were brought up to begin with. And yes, they're still people, despite your negative perception of them.



#1579
straykat

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Ummmm, who cares? That doesn't stop the Qun from being race blind, which was the only reason they were brought up to begin with. And yes, they're still people, despite your negative perception of them.

 

I'm not being negative. It just is. Your role and personhood are the same under the Qun.

 

If the only way for people to get along is to strip what people are, then Solas has been right all along. Time to destroy the setting.



#1580
Vit246

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So you are in favor of indoctrination? Because forcing people to adopt a certain religion, culture, language and political attitude would be indoctrination regardless of whether or not the identity they are having forced upon them used to belong to their ancestors.

 

What about the elves that do not want to live and think like their ancestors did: are they going to be punished because they refuse to give up their identity? What if they try to leave?  

 

Your solution to indoctrination is indoctrination and see, the solution to indoctrination tends to be counter-indoctrination and counter-indoctrination tends to be about encouraging diversity of thought and encouraging the victim of indoctrination to make their own decisions.
 

 

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#1581
MisterJB

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The whole isolation and separation business brought down the Dales in the first place.  Why repeat something that wasn't working before?

 

It seems to me that it was only when humans and elves interacted that the Dales fell.

 

Of course, there are different degrees of separation. An independent elven state should engage in trade and diplomacy in order to avoid war but there is no arguing that if humans and elves aren't sharing a living space, then they can't hurt each other.
 



#1582
ArcaneEsper

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It seems to me that it was only when humans and elves interacted that the Dales fell.

Of course, there are different degrees of separation. An independent elven state should engage in trade and diplomacy in order to avoid war but there is no arguing that if humans and elves aren't sharing a living space, then they can't hurt each other.


A big part of the problem was also the Elves not wanting to help fight the Blight. They took that separation far too seriously. (Though the humans screwed up in other ways)
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#1583
dragonflight288

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:blink:

 

I may be in favor of elves gaining more rights and being treated better, but the suggestions going around are insane. Dislocate all humans, divide the land and give it to the elves to rule without recourse and force their old culture upon them, a culture a vast majority of them have no knowledge of, a language all but forgotten, and a religion that is outlawed by the Chantry, a Chantry most elves grew up in is a recipe for hate-crimes, disaster and a blood-bath. 


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#1584
Vit246

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:blink:

 

I may be in favor of elves gaining more rights and being treated better, but the suggestions going around are insane. Dislocate all humans, divide the land and give it to the elves to rule without recourse and force their old culture upon them, a culture a vast majority of them have no knowledge of, a language all but forgotten, and a religion that is outlawed by the Chantry, a Chantry most elves grew up in is a recipe for hate-crimes, disaster and a blood-bath. 

 

So... whats your solution, o wise one?



#1585
GoldenGail3

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I always thought of Celene as a better ruler then Gaspard (haven't read the comics; so dunno) because she's not attacking Ferelden right now...

#1586
Hellion Rex

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I always thought of Celene as a better ruler then Gaspard (haven't read the comics; so dunno) because she's not attacking Ferelden right now...

Hardly. Orlais and Ferelden haven't actually been at war for a long time. And if you pick Gaspard, you can broker a treaty between Ferelden and Orlais.



#1587
GoldenGail3

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Hardly. Orlais and Ferelden haven't actually been at war for a long time. And if you pick Gaspard, you can broker a treaty between Ferelden and Orlais.


Okay. But Celenes still my canon choice though.

#1588
dragonflight288

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So... whats your solution, o wise one?

 

Before I begin, I'd like to acknowledge that every action or reaction cannot be taken into account, and I prefer judging people as individuals and not as groups and I'm a "laws are meant to protect the lives of all a country's citizens regardless of status, and punish the guilty, regardless of status," kind of guy, but I know that many of those in power inevitably abuse that power, either to empower themselves or to keep someone else from rising up as it would give the illusion (or reality) of them losing that power. As such, there is not going to be a perfect solution to magically fix everything, so I'll simply highlight what I would like to see occur even though I know the nobility of Orlais, Ferelden, and well everywhere in Thedas, would oppose it.

 

To begin, forcing change upon the unwilling never works out. In order to make things for the better, culturally and socially requires a change of hearts and minds. 

 

This can be accomplished through celebrating the accomplishments and lives of specific individuals, enacting, and enforcing laws that give true equality in the eyes of the law; the law must also be enforced regardless of political or social station. 

 

For example, the Chevalier's in Orlais graduate by killing unarmed elves who happen to be out after curfew in the alienages. Such practices are discouraged already, but really only in public. This practice would have to end entirely. If you can't make the Chevaliers want to give it up (in Origins, Leliana says they are given a great deal of clemency for their actions in exchange for their services to the country) then you have to punish them every single time it does happen. Murder means death, so every Chevalier caught may face the hangman's noose. 

 

Another thing would be heavy fines or possibly seizure of goods of humans who burn or destroy property of elves who leave alienages to build lives for themselves, to repay the elves who lost everything.

 

Either they wise up or they run out of Chevalier recruits...whom have to be noble-born just to qualify for training. No punishing them for existing, but only if they're caught abusing their power. 

 

Giving positions of leadership to elves, such as Briala becoming Marquise of the Dales, would also be a boon, if a riot or assassin doesn't kill them first, in that long-term, elves are seen more and more as closer to equals to humans than second-rate citizens they are generally seen as. It's merely surviving the short-term that'll be the issue here. 

 

Another thing that really only happens with Leliana as Divine as something I would like to see is elves (and dwarves and Qunari) be given places as equals in the Chantry. Mother Giselle says that although it is really political, the Chantry clerics do teach that elves and other non-humans can't enter the priesthood because they are further from the Maker than humans. So having them in positions of authority, moral, political, or even economic, so long as that power is not abused, would help in the long-term.

 

Although, again, surviving the short-term is going to be the issue.

 

Essentially, I'd like to see a Martin Luther King Jr movement for elves, and see them treated based on individual merit and not the size of their ears. If the games don't let me change Thedas to that end, at least I can roleplay an idealist reaching for these more modern views of society. Forcing change on the unwilling has never been peaceful in the history of the world, real or in Thedas, but changing hearts and minds, although much slower, has real life examples of being effective. 

 

It just requires those in power to give a darn about it and be willing to act, and keep acting despite opposition. I don't see the existing power structure in Thedas doing that, so I'd like to put those who would try in power and then try and keep them alive long enough to get a plan going.

 

And for the record, I think Leliana tries to change way too much way too fast. I like Mother Giselle's response when asked why she doesn't take up the fight. "We have seen the chaos from trying to fight too many battles. I do what I can, where I can."


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#1589
Akiza

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A big part of the problem was also the Elves not wanting to help fight the Blight. They took that separation far too seriously. (Though the humans screwed up in other ways)

That wasn't the main issue.
Orlais never helped in combat the blight for others nations until those nations were vulnerable to their empire.


#1590
Mistic

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That wasn't the main issue.
Orlais never helped in combat the blight for others nations until those nations were vulnerable to their empire.

 

 

Actually, the Second Blight isn't a good example of that. Drakon's Orlais was very famous for going far beyond their borders to help everyone who needed it against the darkspawn, most famously when he stopped the siege of Weisshaupt and saved the Anderfels. At the moment of his death, Orlais was at its largest and his association with the Chantry meant that the Orlesian form of Andrastianism soon became the dominant religion in Thedas, even in places not part of the empire.

 

Despite Drakon's religious zeal, he was also a pragmatic man. He was friends with Ameridan and had time in the middle of the war to sponsor the Nevarran Accords, including allowing the mages to use their powers in battle for the benefit of all. Whatever Orlais did in later Blights, Drakon was and still is the poster child of what a sensible ruler should do during a Blight.


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#1591
The Ascendant

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After many playthroughs I think the best scenario was the truce. The three leaders are alive and forced to work together. While Orlesian internal politics will be in a state of Cold War, that is entirely what I want. If Orlais is too busy fighting itself, it won't be causing problems for the rest of Thedas. The Civil War is over, Celene remains on the throne, Gaspard is now in the government and Briala still has her elves.



#1592
Vit246

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*snip*

Ew integration!



#1593
Akiza

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Actually, the Second Blight isn't a good example of that. Drakon's Orlais was very famous for going far beyond their borders to help everyone who needed it against the darkspawn, most famously when he stopped the siege of Weisshaupt and saved the Anderfels.

No problem then we pick Drakon as the ruler who need ,Celene?



#1594
BaaBaaBlacksheep

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This sounds beyond idealistic and naïve.
All these words "unity" "love" etc. this is all vague. In practice you can't get such a culturally diverse group of people to adopt some ambiguous ideas as though it's the solution to their problems. So long as their cultures are fundamentally different no actual, lasting Elven "kingdom" can exist.

I still think it would work to be somewhere where there is no humans, and to start over and to have peace and stability. When it all boils down to it though they need to get their minds right and they need to evolve spiritually to create a stronger bond of the elven people, everything begins with the mind. You need to fix your mind first and everything will fall into place.
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#1595
thesuperdarkone2

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I still think it would work to be somewhere where there is no humans, and to start over and to have peace and stability. When it all boils down to it though they need to get their minds right and they need to evolve spiritually to create a stronger bond of the elven people, everything begins with the mind. You need to fix your mind first and everything will fall into place.


Ancient elves pretty much show that is completely false.

#1596
BaaBaaBlacksheep

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Ancient elves pretty much show that is completely false.

That's because the Evanuris are driven by greed and lust for power that causes the downfall of the elves in the first place. You will always have your bad apples and that's why they need to be taken out before they do damage.

#1597
Vit246

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I still think it would work to be somewhere where there is no humans, and to start over and to have peace and stability. When it all boils down to it though they need to get their minds right and they need to evolve spiritually to create a stronger bond of the elven people, everything begins with the mind. You need to fix your mind first and everything will fall into place.

 

What will a third elven kingdom be like? What kind of government? What kind of culture?



#1598
BaaBaaBlacksheep

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What will a third elven kingdom be like? What kind of government? What kind of culture?

Simple: They should love and respect each other as a whole to have a nation by getting together as a family, have a consensus instead of monarchy to create stability much like how the Qunari set up theirs, and set up a religion and philosophies that focuses on spirituality and wisdom to evolve spiritually. When really goes down to it though everything had to do with the mind, body, and spirit. So you set up a system to benefit the three things that can strengthen elven culture and religion. I go for an eastern style if those things like Buddhism, Ma'at, Hindu, Confucius teachings and the like.

#1599
Vit246

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Simple: They should love and respect each other as a whole to have a nation by getting together as a family, have a consensus instead of monarchy to create stability much like how the Qunari set up theirs, and set up a religion and philosophies that focuses on spirituality and wisdom to evolve spiritually. When really goes down to it though everything had to do with the mind, body, and spirit. So you set up a system to benefit the three things that can strengthen elven culture and religion. I go for an eastern style if those things like Buddhism, Ma'at, Hindu, Confucius teachings and the like.

 

You dream a bit too much. And screw the Qunari.

 

I would set up a council/assembly/legislative house of elected Dalish/City Elf representatives who will hopefully form more consensuses and compromises than bickerings. From there I plan to establish a monarchy whose king and queen will be a Dalish and a City Elf as a symbol of unity and a source of decisive leadership in the form of an individual supreme ruler whom all elves will pledge fealty. Maybe the next monarch will be elected. Maybe it'll be a hereditary dynasty.

Or I could have two Roman Consuls, a Dalish and City Elf with equal authority and veto power over the other until the two come to a consensus/compromise.

And then there's another idea that'll probably fail to become policy, but I feel like imposing a tax on non-Dalish elves and the promise of less taxes and more rights/benefits to encourage those to convert. Ottoman-inspired, yes. And no pesky andrastianism proselytizing.



#1600
Hanako Ikezawa

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You dream a bit too much. And screw the Qunari.

 

I would set up a council/assembly/legislative house of elected Dalish/City Elf representatives who will hopefully form more consensuses and compromises than bickerings. From there I plan to establish a monarchy whose king and queen will be a Dalish and a City Elf as a symbol of unity and a source of decisive leadership in the form of an individual supreme ruler whom all elves will pledge fealty. Maybe the next monarch will be elected. Maybe it'll be a hereditary dynasty.

Or I could have two Roman Consuls, a Dalish and City Elf with equal authority and veto power over the other until the two come to a consensus/compromise.

And then there's another idea that'll probably fail to become policy, but I feel like imposing a tax on non-Dalish elves and the promise of less taxes and more rights/benefits to encourage those to convert. Ottoman-inspired, yes. And no pesky andrastianism proselytizing.

Why should the City Elves pay taxes to the Dalish Elves? If there has to be a tax based on what kind of elf you are, it should be the other way around. The ancestors of the Dalish Elves abandoned the ancestors of the City Elves to save themselves. Why trade human overlords for elven ones?