2341 réponses à ce sujet

[Steelcan]

Did you read my post? I said they both kill to gain power but if Celene is not forced she would not do it. Gaspard wants a war, Celene does not.

Actually Gaspard got lucky on the rumor he spreed to force her hand. If anything Celene got played by her own feeling over Briala. It seems when it comes to her lover she looses sight of what is important, if Celene had chosen to not rush into things the ambush would never had worked.

Gaspard is not a honorable man, there is no honor in killing your own soldiers and unarmed civilians because I want the thrones. Although I can give you that Gaspard is indeed a smart man and does not let the code of the chevaliers getting in the way of power.

Celene has a funny notion of "being forced", was it a lack of faith in Briala that prompted her to burn it, or because she looked weak and wanted to appear strong?

 

Like I said, played like a fiddle

 

Gaspard also killed one of his own men for breaking a truce.... Refuses to torture

[Master Warder Z_]

Alistair hinted that Orlais was going to attack even under Celene...

 

And we have seen how infirm she is in the face of opposition from the nobles.....

 

I have a feeling Fereldan is going to be engulfed in the fires of war again soon regardless of who rules.

[Kieran G.]

Nah, Ferelden will recover in time, Orlais after the Civil war is over will be back to playing empire maker, and Nevarra is doing its thing, no reason for them to all become one nation

Except we see that because the nations are such isolationist they are completely open and slow to move when ever invaded. Blights or Qunari. And Ferelden was never that much of a power house. they have incredibly strong historical leaders and champions, and obviously an amazing will to keep fighting even through tough times. but could ferelden hold out from a blight without our obviously OP warden?

 

 

I think Thedas's best bet if Orlais actually conquerors Fereldan again and enters into a truce with Nevarra.

 

With access to the Waking Sea from multiple ports across its territory Orlais can meet the Qunari Navy from any landing point in Southern Thedas save the other side of the Anderfels.

 

Giving Nevarra a highway to stream its own forces further north if the need arises, it really comes down to who controls the sea for that is how you will win a conflict in Thedas.

Exactly. You have the Qunari who might invade from the east or the north, tevinter with a huge amount of power still in the north. and the Darkspawn who can pop up anywhere. Ferelden could have never survived without our OP warden. those 3 nations grouped together by an Alliance or Empire would be the strongest force in thedas 

 

 

EDIT: also i gotta say why does so many think what Celene did was really that much of a problem? they rebelled. Of course they were going to be killed. At least Celene first tried to end it as peacefully as she could. but what she should have done from the start was go in there and put them to the sword. Human or Elf they were rebelling and so in the eyes of any Empire they deserved it. Any ruler would have done the same to any city. Elven or Human.

[Lulupab]

o.o Because that is how you achieve greatness.

 

You break cultural identity and replace it with a national one.

 

You give them an ideal, a vision.

 

So name one such nation that exists today. That sort of nations didn't survive because they created enemies everywhere. That's what Orlais is doing.

[raging_monkey]

I have a feeling Fereldan is going to be engulfed in the fires of war again soon regardless of who rules.

only MTs are fighting there though.
Did i miss a civil war in fereldan

[Steelcan]

So name one such nation that exists today. That sort of nations didn't survive because they created enemies everywhere. That's what Orlais is doing.

America?

 

The United Kingdom?

[Lulupab]

America?

 

The United Kingdom?

 

UK had full reforms, its no longer what it was. America was never like that to begin with.

[Steelcan]

UK had full reforms, its no longer what it was. America was never like that to begin with.

Both nations broke cultural identity and replaced it with national.

 

The failure of the Scottish independence referendum and the cultural homogeneity of America are proof of this

[raging_monkey]

No teal world analogues... it doesnt end well

[Lulupab]

Both nations broke cultural identity and replaced it with national.

 

The failure of the Scottish independence referendum and the cultural homogeneity of America are proof of this

 

But still, all immigrants hold their identity, its not broken. You simply talk about strong sense of nationality which doesn't count and its not exactly what Orlais is doing. What Rome was doing is a better example. They tried to "civilize" barbarians and break their culture and spreading the roman nationality. There was uprisings for thousand years and it eventually succeeded. Switzerland's government is the longest lasting without reforms and most successful government atm and its a federation. Ferelden is the closest to it in Thedas.

[Master Warder Z_]

I want to see an Orlesian Dreadnought i bet it would have more style then a Qunari one

 

I can also see them actually seeing the importance of scale and likely having the thing much larger then the Qunari counterparts, from what i have witnessed Qunari dreadnaughts are bare bone style ships that minimize resource consumption, they are performance and not much else.

 

Orlais likely would use scale to impress; Size and firepower, Maybe "super dreadnought" would be a more apt title then merely a dreadnought.

[Kieran G.]

I want to see an Orlesian Dreadnought i bet it would have more style then a Qunari one

 

I can also see them actually seeing the importance of scale and likely having the thing much larger then the Qunari counterparts, from what i have witnessed Qunari dreadnaughts are bare bone style ships that minimize resource consumption, they are performance and not much else.

 

Orlais likely would use scale to impress; Size and firepower, Maybe "super dreadnought" would be a more apt title then merely a dreadnought.

Which nations really have a navy though? The Qunari obviously. Orlais would probably have a pretty significant one. Tevinter since they have to protect supply ships that are bringing supplies to any forces in Seheron. Nevarra might have a little one. and i would suspect Antive to use a lot of Privateers.

[Lulupab]

Which nations really have a navy though? The Qunari obviously. Orlais would probably have a pretty significant one. Tevinter since they have to protect supply ships that are bringing supplies to any forces in Seheron. Nevarra might have a little one. and i would suspect Antive to use a lot of Privateers.

 

Waters of Thedas belongs to Antiva. The Armada even defeated a full front of Qunari fleet during Qunari invasions. 

[Mihura]

Celene has a funny notion of "being forced", was it a lack of faith in Briala that prompted her to burn it, or because she looked weak and wanted to appear strong?

 

Like I said, played like a fiddle

 

Gaspard also killed one of his own men for breaking a truce.... Refuses to torture

 

She was afraid of that because of the implications in "The Game" a thing that Gaspard can care less about. Both characters showed how you can gain strength in Orlais, that being with the support of the nobles or with military power. 

Of course in the case of Gaspard gaining the throne, he would need to rule things in a state of fear when it comes to the nobles, to keep them in line.

That is why making war with Ferelden is always a good strategy, that way he is away in war campaigns and at the same time gains prestige, the noble that way have to get in line too. A thing that Celene cannot afford to do, that is why she need to please the noble, above all.

Also Gaspard killed Celene soldiers, that is what I was talking about. They are soldier of Orlais. Either way Briala is the honorable person in the book, those two are not.  

[Steelcan]

But still, all immigrants hold their identity, its not broken. You simply talk about strong sense of nationality which doesn't count and its not exactly what Orlais is doing. What Rome was doing is a better example. They tried to "civilize" barbarians and break their culture and spreading the roman nationality. There was uprisings for thousand years and it eventually succeeded. Switzerland's government is the longest lasting without reforms and most successful government atm and its a federation. Ferelden is the closest to it in Thedas.

you clearly have no understanding of how romans dealt with the provinces

 

They weren't into massive cultural conversion, they wanted taxes, goods, no rebellion, and that's about it.   Roman citizenship was vastly more important than either Italian ethnicity or even roman culture such as speaking Latin

[Ianamus]

She was afraid of that because of the implications in "The Game" a thing that Gaspard can care less about. Both characters showed how you can gain strength in Orlais, that being with the support of the nobles or with military power. 

Of course in the case of Gaspard gaining the throne, he would need to rule things in a state of fear when it comes to the nobles, to keep them in line.

That is why making war with Ferelden is always a good strategy, that way he is away in war campaigns and at the same time gains prestige, the noble that way have to get in line too. A thing that Celene cannot afford to do, that is why she need to please the noble, above all.

Also Gaspard killed Celene soldiers, that is what I was talking about. They are soldier of Orlais. Either way Briala is the honorable person in the book, those two are not.  

 

I wouldn't call Briala honorable. Not by a long shot. 

 

Stabbing Celene in the back in order to extend the war and cause as many deaths and as much chaos as possible is anything but honorable. 

[Steelcan]

She was afraid of that because of the implications in "The Game" a thing that Gaspard can care less about. Both characters showed how you can gain strength in Orlais, that being with the support of the nobles or with military power. 

Of course in the case of Gaspard gaining the throne, he would need to rule things in a state of fear when it comes to the nobles, to keep them in line.

That is why making war with Ferelden is always a good strategy, that way he is away in war campaigns and at the same time gains prestige, the noble that way have to get in line too. A thing that Celene cannot afford to do, that is why she need to please the noble, above all.

Also Gaspard killed Celene soldiers, that is what I was talking about. They are soldier of Orlais. Either way Briala is the honorable person in the book, those two are not.  

Gaspard has support of the military and nobility, Celene does not have a monopoly on it

 

Briala isn't exactly honorable, mostly because she doesn't care about honor.  Gaspard is the one who has a code and sticks to it.  Clearly the Chevalier code does not extend to fighting your countrymen

[Lulupab]

you clearly have no understanding of how romans dealt with the provinces

 

They weren't into massive cultural conversion, they wanted taxes, goods, no rebellion, and that's about it.   Roman citizenship was vastly more important than either Italian ethnicity or even roman culture such as speaking Latin

 

The senate and emperors treated them much differently. Obviously you talk about times of the senate. Besides Orlais wanted the same from Ferelden. They didn't convert them. Rome is a closer example to Orlais than any other real life country.

[Master Warder Z_]

Waters of Thedas belongs to Antiva. The Armada even defeated a full front of Qunari fleet during Qunari invasions. 

 

The trouble is it is commanded by Merchant Princes who war against each other when there is no common foe.

 

Its said as much.

[Steelcan]

The senate and emperors treated them much differently. Obviously you talk about times of the senate. Besides Orlais wanted the same from Ferelden. They didn't convert them. Rome is a closer example to Orlais than any other real life country.

No not really.

 

The Republic was too administratively incompetent to adequately deal with the provinces, which is why local governors had more power, and they were primarily concerned with getting tax money.

 

If we look at the emperors, lets say Augustus, he effectively stopped large scale roman expansion and in the vein of Julius Caesar allowed some limited interaction of provincial people in the roman government.  As long as taxes were paid and the roman garrisons left unmolested the provincials were left largely to their own devices.  You see this again under the reign of Tiberius and even Caligula, King Herod in Judea being a prime example.

[Kieran G.]

Waters of Thedas belongs to Antiva. The Armada even defeated a full front of Qunari fleet during Qunari invasions. 

No it didn't. Antiva was actually conquered by the Qunari. and then later freed in a exalted march by the help of a Pirate Armada. Antiva doesn't even have a standing army.

[Lulupab]

No it didn't. Antiva was actually conquered by the Qunari. and then later freed in a exalted march by the help of a Pirate Armada. Antiva doesn't even have a standing army.

 

Because its based on Italian city states and Conditorri mercenary system, just because they don't have an official standing army doesn't mean they don't have armies oh and the crows are feared even by the Qunari. For example consider Gaspard assassinated if he even looks at Antiva. The PC is the only one who really escaped them really. Antiva is the only nation who has defeated a Qunari fleet, its canon and in the lore. Go check it. In fact after that victory it has become so powerful in the seas, all merchants pay them upfront when passing through the sea because the Armada is allowing them to do so, otherwise they can't and no one can do anything about it.

 

Even if the Antivan government falls there are many people with power and armies and pirate fleets who will fight for Antiva as they already have many times in the past.

[Steelcan]

The crows would only assassinate Gaspard if someone paid them to

[Kieran G.]

Because its based on Italian city states and Conditorri mercenary system, just because they don't have an official standing army doesn't mean they don't have armies oh and the crows are feared even by the Qunari. For example consider Gaspard assassinated if he even looks at Antiva. The PC is the only one who really escaped them really. Antiva is the only nation who has defeated a Qunari fleet, its canon and in the lore. Go check it. In fact after that victory it has become so powerful in the seas, all merchants pay them upfront when passing through the sea because the Armada is allowing them to do so, otherwise they can't and no one can do anything about it.

 

Even if the Antivan government falls there are many people with power and armies and pirate fleets who will fight for Antiva as they already have many times in the past.

Antiva didn't defeat the Qunari. it was because of the Marchers and Pirates that the Qunari were pushed out of Antiva. You can't say America defeated the English Navy when it was actually the French Navy who did. And the leaders are Afraid of the Crows because someone can pay them to kill them. they would only do that if they were payed to. same with the pirates. if Orlais payed them to not get in the way they wouldn't. Antiva thrives because they make deals. otherwise they have no protection what so ever. but because they have such a trade empire they can pay the pirates not to attack their shipments and protect them sometimes too. but otherwise they have no constant protection and the Qunari are afraid of the Pirates and Crows. Not of Antiva it self, Since Antiva is nothing but a nation of merchants and back stabs.

 

And more to the point the Pirates are as much a threat as they are an ally. they will attack any ships leaving Antiva City unless payed not to. I haven't heard of the Qunari Navy doing that. or the Orlesian navy. Because they are nationalized while the pirates are Privatized which again show that Antiva has no fighting force what so ever.

[HK-90210]

Neither. She's not a traitor, and never will be. Even if Gaspard becomes emperor, Celene never betrayed Orlais. And she's certainly not a savior considering that Orlais got embroiled in civil war on her watch.

 

What she IS is a horrible empress. Let's start with her first mistake. She dallied with a female elf since her teen years, all the while refusing to marry and have children to prevent a succession crisis. As an empress, it was a duty she blatantly ignored. Using her single status as a bargaining chip in her political life is a worthy strategy. But overuse of that strategy can create an unnecessary succession crisis that can lead to war, which is why so many nobles where willing to side with Gaspard. If Celene was a married woman with few children, her rule would have been much more solidified, and she could have carried on with Briala to her heart's content.

 

The next mistake was her refusal of Gaspard's marriage proposal. She KNEW he was offering her a chance to avoid war. She knew he was serious, what kind of man he was. And she refused because she just couldn't let Briala go. As a empress, this was a selfish, idiotic decision that has brought and enormous death and destruction on the people that Celene swore to protect and defend as their ruler. Had she just swallowed her pride and her attachment to Briala, countless innocent lives would have been spared.

 

The last major mistake? Taking Gaspard's bait and sending troops to crush the elven rebellion. She underestimated Gaspard's political and military skill, and it cost her her best, most loyal troops. The fact that Gaspard tried to kill her should have indicated to her what Gaspard was willing to do. I'm not saying she should have seen Gaspard's every move. Just that she should have thought it through. 'Why is Gaspard trying to provoke me?' 'What does he want/expect me to do?' Had she asked herself these questions before going off to slaughter the elves, her men wouldn't have had to pay such a high price for a political mistake.

 

However, all of these mistakes aren't the reason I hate Celene. It's that she made them after Briala's parents and the rest of her household paid such a high price to make her empress. She has them killed, but doesn't marry and produce an heir. She has them killed, but won't marry Gaspard to prevent civil war. She has them killed, but reacts to Gaspard's bait so foolishly. They pay the price for her rule with their lives, and she bungles it all up so spectacularly.

 

She and Lady Mantillion believed she'd be better for Orlais than the aged Florian. How, exactly, has she been better?