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[DuskWanderer]

That was also a world where Corypheus was still alive and wreaking havoc, not a world where we killed him. Orlais is doing pretty well in my playthrough where Gaspard is Emperor.

 

That said, I felt reuniting Celene and Briala was really, really uncomfortable as that was not a healthy relationship at all, feelings be damned, particularly because of some things that Celene did (won't spoil cause you haven't finished the book yet).

The game is expressly clear: Celene is assassinated and Gaspard is implicated (and executed). Orlais falls to infighting and Corypheus steamrolls them with his controlled Warden-and-Demon Army. 

 

Celene's death does not cause the Empire to crumble. And Briala has very little to do with it. Honestly, I'd say a Gaspard alone is the best choice. If I could, I'd prefer to have one where he and Briala work together, rather than through blackmail, but what can you do?

[Qun00]

Celene is perfectly aligned with Orlesian morality, so she certainly is their savior.

[phoray]

I read the Masked Empire. What the--!!

 

Spoiler

Solas killed Falessan for merely not doing his bidding? but doesn't kill the Inquisitor for aggressively stating to his face that he/she will actively try to get in his way?

Amazingly enough, for a book about Celene and Gaspard, it was super elfy and I can't help but actively dislike Solas more because of it.

 

Regarding who I would put on the Throne with this new knowledge under my belt. Gaspard seemed like an Orlesian Chevelier version of Loghain, may the man roll over in his grave with the comparison. 

 

Celene is what her country made of her but more than that, what really comes through is her love and absolute dedication to her country. Even Falessan could see it when she said she would throw herself upon Gaspard's sword if it would keep her country safe. Which I did not see in Gaspard. If anything, he kept making references to making the Empire larger and grander by battle with other countries but never how much he would give to see his people well and cared for. Never mind his hypocritical racism (elves and half breeds are rats worth killing until they best me in battle by my own rules). And bending of Chevelier ethics; which the bending of was, on occasion, very questionable. Briala keeps expecting Celene to love her and "what's right" more than Orlais; that will never happen within Celene. It was good that they parted ways.

 

I would like Briala and Celene to work together, but not as lovers. That relationship is done in spite of their loving each other anyway. I don't know if the non-lover bit is even an option, however? Nevertheless, they were making momentum on elven rights and the betterment of Orlais through intellectual pursuits. Bit of a snails pace, but I think Celene was getting more aggressive about it. Celene is plain just not as good without Briala there working with her, as we saw when she made her choice about Halamsharal.

 

- Gaspard alone is a fool. Sneers at the Game while playing it; will not accomplish much that way, fighting against nobles. Will lead Orlais to war ASAP with Nevarra or Fereldan. That's all he cares about, is building an Empire. Yes yes, in some Game states he hasn't done so as of Trespasser, but the Inquisition is still present until the end of that no matter what. 

 

- Puppet Gaspard would find a way to shake off Briala eventually. It would be his number one concern. Would stop him from hopping immediately into a war, but why would the delay be that valuable...

 

- All three "working together" only works so long as the Inquisition is a power to they have to deal with. What happens if you disband the very organization that binds them together? It would be amazing if they could actually work together. They are three strong intelligent people, but all three have their own agenda, so they are far more likely to play nice while waiting for a chance to strike, or even to mildly undermine each other constantly. 

 

So I guess Briala and Celene as a screwed up love couple is the best bet. Because in spite of their separate agendas, their feelings for each other will make them overlap the most harmoniously. Which means my not as educated initial playthroughs where I set that up are good in my eyes.

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

This is for justice for the elves you've slaughtered you treacherous b****! (Ahh seeing that again brings back so much happiness and joy! )

[Hellion Rex]

http://youtu.be/2NeKdfX6xv0

This is for justice for the elves you've slaughtered you treacherous tyrant! (Ahh seeing that again brings back so much happiness and joy! )

I wouldn't call her a tyrant. Hardly, since she was helping elves in Orlesian society, particularly with the University and within the arts.

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

I wouldn't call her a tyrant. Hardly, since she was helping elves in Orlesian society, particularly with the University and within the arts.

Then why she's slaughtered the elves @ the alienage instead of bringing the noble to justice for causing the elves to stand up for themselves? Celene is nothing but a hypocrite but that is my belief.

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

I do agree...the power dynamic in Celene and Briala's relationship was uneven. Celene took advantage of Briala as her handmaiden, and the way I read it in the book...they first kissed when Briala was shocked in horror over the blood bath of her parents' bodies. So basically, Celene seduced Briala in a very emotionally vulnerable time for her and built their entire relationship living a lie.
 
Celene does not view Briala as her equal and doesn't truly doesn't consider elves as fully individuals or whatever, but she still has a more progressive view as a human than most in Thedas. Still, it doesn't make it right for how Celene treated Briala. She probably strung her along and slowly gave elves some rights in Orlais out of guilt and to keep the elf quiet. Celene definitely believes the elves should be given more rights (so that they could be put to use in Orlais), and the book stated she had a fascination with elven culture when she was little, so it wasn't only about Briala but, Briala was very influential and a force to be reckoned with, so it would have gone bad for Celene had Briala found out what Celene did.
 
Also, the exoticism of Celene's view of Briala made the relationship extra creepy. It was almost like she had a fetish for Briala. I mean, elves aren't human though, so Celene's type of exoticism is way different than actual exoticism IRL, but let's not go there.
 
It wasn't a healthy relationship at all, especially for Briala, and what Celene did is unforgivable to Briala. I don't know how it would be possible to reconcile their relationship.
 
Still siding with Celene though. 
 
 
What happened in the City Elf origin??? I remember playing through it but never finishing.

That's exactly how I see this whole so called relationship between the two, but I wouldn't side with her at all.

[MissOuJ]

Then why she's slaughtered the elves @ the alienage instead of bringing the noble to justice for causing the elves to stand up for themselves? Celene is nothing but a hypocrite but that is my belief.

 

Because the tensions were already running high with the nobles and the civil war was already a possibility, and Celene needed all the support she could get from the nobles. Having one of "their own" assassinated after her loyalties had been called into question (which was essentially the whole point of the play - it was a farce about Andraste and Shartan, who were too busy frolicking while Maferath - the military commander - was desperately and heroically trying to keep order) would have raised Gaspard's popularity, since I am sure he would've used elves as a scapegoat if Briala had assassinated the noble successfully and would've made it widely known that if he were the Emperor, no uppity elves would lay their hands on nobility without some serious repercussions.

 

My main take from the book was that the whole Orlesian society is petty and classist and in general in need of a reform - and the person who's most likely to achieve that reform is Celene. Celene made some bad decisions and has been a pretty horrible person in general, but IMO, she's Orlais' best bet at a better future, the elves included, if you repair Celene's and Briala's relationship during WEWH (even though I always cringe that I can't get them to work together without bringing them back together - although I do think that Celene regrets her role in Briala's parent's murder).

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

Because the tensions were already running high with the nobles and the civil war was already a possibility, and Celene needed all the support she could get from the nobles. Having one of "their own" assassinated after her loyalties had been called into question (which was essentially the whole point of the play - it was a farce about Andraste and Shartan, who were too busy frolicking while Maferath - the military commander - was desperately and heroically trying to keep order) would have raised Gaspard's popularity, since I am sure he would've used elves as a scapegoat if Briala had assassinated the noble successfully and would've made it widely known that if he were the Emperor, no uppity elves would lay their hands on nobility without some serious repercussions.

My main take from the book was that the whole Orlesian society is petty and classist and in general in need of a reform - and the person who's most likely to achieve that reform is Celene. Celene made some bad decisions and has been a pretty horrible person in general, but IMO, she's Orlais' best bet at a better future, the elves included, if you repair Celene's and Briala's relationship during WEWH (even though I always cringe that I can't get them to work together without bringing them back together - although I do think that Celene regrets her role in Briala's parent's murder).

She didn't regret a damn thing and that's no excuse for slaughtering elves for taking a stand against the oppressors, but here's the thing I think the reason why she did that is to put the elves in their place by purging the alienage as an example. She doesn't care about no one but her herself she don't care who she kills, to manipulate, or to f*** over people. She's only an opportunist to do anything to keep her throne.

[Qun00]

[phoray]

 

 

I think that's kind of harsh. Celene grew up with Briala from childhood and couldn't even bring herself to murder her when the time came; this was before their romantic relationship. We could probably assume that if Briala has not been there , then Celene wouldn't have done anything elfy. But Briala was, and her presence shaped Celene's views. To ignore that people can be effected by those around them, better or worse, is just an omnipotent view we can take as PC. I would never have been interested in politics at all if it hadn't been for a boyfriend at 19 that was passionate about the topic. Maybe I would have picked up an interest elsewhere, but reviewing who I hang out with usually, no. It's possible I would never have cared my entire life about the politics in my own country if it weren't for that man-boy I dated. Briala is there, and Celene cares about the elves; loves Briala. Just not more than Orlais.

[Qun00]

Or herself.

Anyhow, Felassan doesn't trust her and he's a very intelligent guy.

[phoray]

Or herself.
Anyhow, Felassan doesn't trust her and he's a very intelligent guy.

Doesn't trust her to follow through on her promises the way she implied when first made to Briala. I just read the book, he totally believed she would die to protect Orlais. I favor Celene because of this love of her country. A ruler should love their country, not just wield it as a tool.

[Qun00]

As did I. Felassan confronts Briala about her blind trust of Celene and correctly points out that she wouldn't lift a finger to help the elves if left to her own devices.

He goes even further and says that any credit for Celene's actions on their behalf belongs to Briala alone.

[SgtSteel91]

As did I. Felassan confronts Briala about her blind trust of Celene and correctly points out that she wouldn't lift a finger to help the elves if left to her own devices.

He goes even further and says that any credit for Celene's actions on their behalf belongs to Briala alone.

 

He's also a spy for Solas and may be splitting Briala and Celene and get her onto his/Solas' side.

[phoray]

As did I. Felassan confronts Briala about her blind trust of Celene and correctly points out that she wouldn't lift a finger to help the elves if left to her own devices.

He goes even further and says that any credit for Celene's actions on their behalf belongs to Briala alone.

 

I have seen it implied that Falessan came to see current world as "real" . I feel this is due to exposure to people he actually likes; Briala, not the Dalish clans, which he frequently scoffs at. He doesn't trust Celene to free the elves the way Briala believes is the "right" way. Celene has mental thoughts/imagination towards the end of their Eluvian journey where she frees them for the direct betterment of Orlais. Frees them into a spy network job, anyway, but the fact that the country would then heavily rely on the elves would elevate them in the human eyes around them. Right now, all of Thedas merely relies on them to be cheap servant labor. There is no respect, begrudging or otherwise. This isn't the freedom Briala wanted for her people, but it's more realistic to believe that method of betterment over "Rebel, win, score freedom." My point is, Felessan doesn't doubt Celene's love of her country or her willingness to sacrifice for it. He is intelligent and his opinion of her as an Empress of Orlais is important to me. The point got mixed somehow into her view of the elves as a whole, and I agree, he never believed she'd follow through on her "in the moment passion" promises. Celene is prone to idealism in her unguarded moments. Gaspard lacks any ideal, and merely wants to be Emperor-the end.

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

I'm only halfway through the Masked Empire, but my first playthrough involved The Celene Briala combo. They obviously still cared for each other. Didn't really know their story, but I felt that much was obvious. Also, it seemed absurd to me to try to avoid a future where Celene was assassinated by helping it happen. The future didn't say anything about Gaspard being as good as better, it explicitly said Celene being assasinated caused Orlais to fall.
 
I'll be back again after I finish reading the book. I still haven't seen anything that Damns Celene anymore than some of Maric's choices damned him. He was no clean King either.

Good let it burn. It's the ruling classes that caused all this stupid infighting because they only want power and nothing else.

[phoray]

Good let it burn. It's the ruling classes that caused all this stupid infighting because they only want power and nothing else.

 

There is a ruling class in all of the countries of Thedas. Even the ruling class of Elves enslaved their own people. There will never stop being a ruling class or people wanting to be in it. It's merely the amount of corruption any particular government exhibits and there is no perfection; in reality or in a video game.  This comment reminds me of a Genie story I once heard where the man wished for peace in all the world. And he got it; in the form that there now no people in the world outside of himself.

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

There is a ruling class in all of the countries of Thedas. Even the ruling class of Elves enslaved their own people. There will never stop being a ruling class or people wanting to be in it. It's merely the amount of corruption any particular government exhibits and there is no perfection; in reality or in a video game.  This comment reminds me of a Genie story I once heard where the man wished for peace in all the world. And he got it; in the form that there now no people in the world outside of himself.

But it has to end to start over, I mean what's the point of fixing a crumbling broken house? Tear it down to build a new home and only then peace will come to fruition.

[phoray]

But it has to end to start over, I mean what's the point of fixing a crumbling broken house? Tear it down to build a new home and only then peace will come to fruition.

To keep the system or "house" clean, you'd have to do a tear down every 100-200 years. Peace is never permanent because it's in our genetic nature to "get more". This method would cause more chaos than to just change a system from within rather than insist on an all out burn it all rebellion that helps no one; not even the rebels.

 

I don't love Orlais. I find the idea of the Game a little silly, to be honest. The tells of poker exaggerated to the extreme and applied to everything. But do I think it will be improved by the whole thing burning? I mean, seriously, Celene is the only noble in all of Thedas to try to get elves into a university/equivalent. She's more forward thinking than all other countries at this moment, and that's the country you want to burn to the ground?

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

To keep the system or "house" clean, you'd have to do a tear down every 100-200 years. Peace is never permanent because it's in our genetic nature to "get more". This method would cause more chaos than to just change a system from within rather than insist on an all out burn it all rebellion that helps no one; not even the rebels.
 
I don't love Orlais. I find the idea of the Game a little silly, to be honest. The tells of poker exaggerated to the extreme and applied to everything. But do I think it will be improved by the whole thing burning? I mean, seriously, Celene is the only noble in all of Thedas to try to get elves into a university/equivalent. She's more forward thinking than all other countries at this moment, and that's the country you want to burn to the ground?

We can choose to have peace but the problem is and for a lot of people is that we don't look within ourselves and to fix ourselves to become better people. That's is the real problem that we all should ponder about, and everything begins with the mind and the inner self.

[phoray]

We can choose to have peace but the problem is and for a lot of people is that we don't look within ourselves and to fix ourselves to become better people. That's is the real problem that we all should ponder about, and everything begins with the mind and the inner self.

 

Interesting... but there's this problem with our shortened life spans and the inability to make a 16 year old philosophize about how they could be better. But this train of conversation is getting off the World of Thedas and into reality and I'm not much interested in it. Thanks though.

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

Interesting... but there's this problem with our shortened life spans and the inability to make a 16 year old philosophize about how they could be better. But this train of conversation is getting off the World of Thedas and into reality and I'm not much interested in it. Thanks though.

But it is the truth. But anyways I would've got Celene out of the picture and let Briala take over for the good of all elves of Orlais.

[The Elder King]

Or herself.

Anyhow, Felassan doesn't trust her and he's a very intelligent guy.

Felassan got himself killed by Solas, apparently he trusted him too much. Not that it means Felassan is stupid, but his trust/distrust of certain characters aren't the ultimate logic to judge characters, considering his demise.

Off-topic, considering the author of TME is the same of Solas in-game, I think it might be a sign of Solas' intention about the current elves, considering the vagueness of what will happen to them after his plans are completed.

But it is the truth. But anyways I would've got Celene out of the picture and let Briala take over for the good of all elves of Orlais.

If this is the final game of the DA series we might have had the change of big world change in Thedas, like Briala taking over. They obviously couldn't do that since DA4 will happen, because it'll be a too much different change compared to the other choices. 

[Mistic]

Felassan got himself killed by Solas, apparently he trusted him too much. Not that it means Felassan is stupid, but his trust/distrust of certain characters aren't the ultimate logic to judge characters, considering his demise.

 

Felassan met Solas for the last time knowing very well that he would pay. His demise is precisely another proof he's a good judge of character, not the opposite.

 

He never trusted that Solas would buy a lie or forgive him. He even entertained the idea of running away, with herbs that would keep from dreaming most of the time, and wards that would block him from the Fade in case the herbs failed, "running and hiding and looking over one shoulder for the rest of his life". In the end, though, he decided that "it was pointless to put it off any longer".