I was talking about this in another thread but I think I should bring it to this thread.
Admittedly Gaspard might a better choice for the immediate situation of dealing with Elder One, but its not true for the long run.
That's not necessarily the case from this point of view (defeating the Elder One). Remember, if you force all three to work together Gaspard still leads the army.
Figure it out.
Are we from Tuchanka? We must be, given our inherent aggression factor 
Are we from Tuchanka? We must be, given our inherent aggression factor
I call dibs on being from Arda, that way I can join in on the suppression of the power of the elves
TOL-ACHARN!
If Celene is smart she would marry Gaspard to prevent a civil war and declare a treaty for the elves to occupy the Emerald Graves, The Arbor Wilds, and half of The Dales. Get all elves out of human cities so the elves have a sovereign nation to keep the peace between two peoples. If she only done that there would be no rebellion and no civil war, but she want to wield power for herself and want to keep the elves 2nd class citizens and will punish them for defying human rule.I was talking about this in another thread but I think I should bring it to this thread.
Admittedly Gaspard might a better choice for the immediate situation of dealing with Elder One, but its not true for the long run. After extensive information about how Orlais works and its history, Gaspard will become a failure. He wants to remove the "game" and influence if politics from Orlais, but we all know he can't. He may enforce it for a while but he will die someday or simply lose power, then all of it will come back immediately. He will quickly lose favor and his reign will solely depend on his army. Guess what? The army is fed by favors.
Celene is not without flaws either, but its not like there is any other choice. Based on epilogue endings and what they describe, the most stable ending for Orlais is Celene and Briala united and Gaspard executed. There is not a single mention of "looming threat" in this one, but in all other Orlais endings its mentioned.
We also know he is not a failure, he effectively keeps the nobility in line and puts a check on Tevinter.
There is no reason to think his reign is going to end poorly, particularly if the peace deal with Ferelden is done. None of the options for the throne really seem to have massive drawbacks, not even Gaspard and Briala, and it seems overwhelmingly likely that it will not impact anything else, thus it will come down only to player choice.
"Keeps the nobility in line" is a very bad situation in Orlais, I did mention I came to that conclusion after extensive reveal of Orlesian culture and how things work over there. Gaspard will keep things in check for a while, but in the event of his death or simply him losing power for some reason it will lead to chaos because he was keeping the power like tyrants do, with force.
None of the options have massive drawbacks, but this doesn't necessarily apply to things on the long run. Whatever change Gaspard enforced will come crashing down. Politics and the game are not going anywhere in Orlais and Gaspard is trying to remove it. Its simply futile.
If Celene is smart she would marry Gaspard to prevent a civil war and declare a treaty for the elves to occupy the Emerald Graves, The Arbor Wilds, and half of The Dales. Get all elves out of human cities so the elves have a sovereign nation to keep the peace between two peoples. If she only done that there would be no rebellion and no civil war, but she want to wield power for herself and want to keep the elves 2nd class citizens and will punish them for defying human rule.
Did you even read Masked Empire?
Celene briefly considered accepting when he proposed if only to prevent a Civil War, but decided against it because she realised that if any "accident" were to happen to her, being royal consort would give Gaspard even more of case with which to claim the throne.
When she turns him down, he immediately tried to assassinate her. When he was thwarted and realised that he couldn't risk doing so again openly, he instead decided to embark on a campaign to usurp the throne.
Does that kind of behaviour speak well of Gaspard's intentions or the lengths he might go to in order to become Emperor, that would prevent him from murdering Celene even if the two of them had married to form a political union?
Furthermore, the intentions you speak of regarding Elves are what Gaspard would do in power, since we see the novel him repeatedly refers to Elves as "Rabbits" and seem to consider the hunting down and eradication of the Dalish as one of the Orlesian national pastimes.
Celene is trying to get equality for the Elves so they aren't second class citizens anymore, including trying to desegregate certain institutions like the Universities so that they will allow Elves to study there.
The reason Celene burned the Alienage was because her hand was forced. Gaspard would have used any inaction to gain more support for his side in the conflict, claiming it proved she was unfit to rule and was seduced by her Elven lover into giving Elves preferential treatment. Thus Celene reluctantly ordered the Alienage burned to demonstrate to the other nobles that no-one was above the law, nor did she tolerate rebellion from any quarter, whether it be human or elf, commoner or noble.
I read the book and that is no excuse of murdering elves because of some stupid political bullshit and she's wrong for killing innocent elves who are terrified and fed up with humans who continued to oppress them. She should've killed Gaspard instead to ensure the balance of power of her sovereign rule, but her actions have proven otherwise. The whole elven/human love is all bullshit with that department and all Celene offers is words and false hopes and her actions is bloodshed against the oppressed and she use the whole Gaspard affair as an excuse to commit genocide.Did you even read Masked Empire?
Celene briefly considered accepting when he proposed if only to prevent a Civil War, but decided against it because she realised that if any "accident" were to happen to her, being royal consort would give Gaspard even more of case with which to claim the throne.
When she turns him down, he immediately tried to assassinate her. When he was thwarted and realised that he couldn't risk doing so again openly, he instead decided to embark on a campaign to usurp the throne.
Does that kind of behaviour speak well of Gaspard's intentions or the lengths he might go to in order to become Emperor, that would prevent him from murdering Celene even if the two of them had married to form a political union?
Furthermore, the intentions you speak of regarding Elves are what Gaspard would do in power, since we see the novel him repeatedly refers to Elves as "Rabbits" and seem to consider the hunting down and eradication of the Dalish as one of the Orlesian national pastimes.
Celene is trying to get equality for the Elves so they aren't second class citizens anymore, including trying to desegregate certain institutions like the Universities so that they will allow Elves to study there.
The reason Celene burned the Alienage was because her hand was forced. Gaspard would have used any inaction to gain more support for his side in the conflict, claiming it proved she was unfit to rule and was seduced by her Elven lover into giving Elves preferential treatment. Thus Celene reluctantly ordered the Alienage burned to demonstrate to the other nobles that no-one was above the law, nor did she tolerate rebellion from any quarter, whether it be human or elf, commoner or noble.
I read the book and that is no excuse of murdering elves because of some stupid political bullshit and she's wrong for killing innocent elves who are terrified and fed up with humans who continued to oppress them. She should've killed Gaspard instead to ensure the balance of power of her sovereign rule, but her actions have proven otherwise. The whole elven/human love is all bullshit with that department and all Celene offers is words and false hopes and her actions is bloodshed against the oppressed and she use the whole Gaspard affair as an excuse to commit genocide.
She staved off arresting and/or executing Gaspard because she knew that if she had, those whom were loyal to him would seek to remove her from the throne and the entire nation would be plunged into war before the day's end.
The Chantry was crumbling and the Mages and Templars were at each other's throats, let alone Gaspard's warmongering. She was right to try to maintain peace and keep her options open for as long as she could, because setting off another conflict thrown into their midst could ruin Orlais.
And no, Celene did not use the situation with Gaspard to allow her the excuse to oppress or commit genocide. She was forced to make a hard decision out of a bunch of extremely bad choices, so she took the option that was better for the future of Orlais. Lose one Alienage or risk the entire Empire?
If humans had been rioting in that city and openly attacking the guards, she would have probably have ordered the same thing done.
That's still no excuse of killing elves who have the right to rebel against humans, if she really cared she would've killed Gaspard and his supporters and have the perpetrators murdering helpless elves killed to prevent the rebellion from happening. She's no better than any human who loves to shed blood and lusts for power, she's a master manipulator and a blue-eyed devil.She staved off arresting and/or executing Gaspard because she knew that if she had, those whom were loyal to him would seek to remove her from the throne and the entire nation would be plunged into war before the day's end.
The Chantry was crumbling and the Mages and Templars were at each other's throats, let alone Gaspard's warmongering. She was right to try to maintain peace and keep her options open for as long as she could, because setting off another conflict thrown into their midst could ruin Orlais.
And no, Celene did not use the situation with Gaspard to allow her the excuse to oppress or commit genocide. She was forced to make a hard decision out of a bunch of extremely bad choices, so she took the option that was better for the future of Orlais. Lose one Alienage or risk the entire Empire?
If humans had been rioting in that city and openly attacking the guards, she would have probably have ordered the same thing done.
That's still no excuse of killing elves who have the right to rebel against humans, if she really cared she would've killed Gaspard and his supporters and have the perpetrators murdering helpless elves killed to prevent the rebellion from happening. She's no better than any human who loves to shed blood and lusts for power, she's a master manipulator and a blue-eyed devil.
While the elves might have been justified in their anger, they were still breaking the law by arming themselves, forming a violent mob and seeking to instigate a race war against the humans of the city. What made it even more ironic is that the mob was seeking revenge for someone who advocated peaceful coexistence and would have been appalled by what they were doing in his name.
Celene's position was precarious at the time the riot took place. She knew that the ruler of the city might betray her to Gaspard if she didn't do something to end the elven uprising. She also knew that Gaspard would have been far more merciless if the handling of the situation was left to him, as well as possibly use this incident to enact harsher treatment towards Elves across the Empire.
So again, would you rather Celene burn a single Alienage... or leave the task to Gaspard, who might very well burn them all?
But the elves were provoked into violence because they have been fed up, as I said before separation is the best solution. But before that I would spy on Gaspard and his supporters, use illicit false information to pit the supporters against Gaspard to lose his support to gain his throne. Then strike him down and his supporters (two birds with one stone) I would have brought the nobility to its knees to be feared to not to be crossed. If Celene was like Aria Gaspard's ass and his supporters would been dead as fried chicken and rule with an iron fist. I get the people's support by treating them well and if one of the noble families who opposed my efforts for peace and stability, will be dealt with and killed.While the elves might have been justified in their anger, they were still breaking the law by arming themselves, forming a violent mob and seeking to instigate a race war against the humans of the city. What made it even more ironic is that the mob was seeking revenge for someone who advocated peaceful coexistence and would have been appalled by what they were doing in his name.
Celene's position was precarious at the time the riot took place. She knew that the ruler of the city might betray her to Gaspard if she didn't do something to end the elven uprising. She also knew that Gaspard would have been far more merciless if the handling of the situation was left to him, as well as possibly use this incident to enact harsher treatment towards Elves across the Empire.
So again, would you rather Celene burn a single Alienage... or leave the task to Gaspard, who might very well burn them all?
Lol, "blue eyed devil"
I don't care who you hate, just don't be a stereotype about it,
But the elves were provoked into violence because they have been fed up, as I said before separation is the best solution. But before that I would spy on Gaspard and his supporters, use illicit false information to pit the supporters against Gaspard to lose his support to gain his throne. Then strike him down and his supporters (two birds with one stone) I would have brought the nobility to its knees to be feared to not to be crossed. If Celene was like Aria Gaspard's ass and his supporters would been dead as fried chicken and rule with an iron fist. I get the people's support by treating them well and if one of the noble families who opposed my efforts for peace and stability, will be dealt with and killed.
And again, separation isn't the best solution, because they've tried it repeatedly and it always ends in conflict.
The problem with your suggestion for what Celene could have done, is that it flies contrary to how the Game is played in Orlais. The entire point of the Game is beat your enemy without appearing to have done anything at all, nor leaving any evidence that you had undermined them, rather than making extremely brazen moves and leaving a paper trail that make it clear to everyone what you're doing.
As much as he hates the Game, even Gaspard is aware of the rules and how to play it. That's why he didn't attempt to murder Celene until they were alone, rather than attempting to do it in front of the other nobles. If he murdered her openly, then that would have given Celene's loyalists reason to oppose his attempt to take the throne. Whereas if she died in a "tragic hunting accident", it would be suspicious but none of Celene's loyalists could actively prove his involvement in her death.
The same goes for why Celene simply doesn't have Gaspard murdered on the spot during the peace talks at the Winter Palace. She had to wait until he made a wrong move that would give her reason to have him executed, such as proof he violated the ceasefire and/or conspired to have her assassinated.
"Keeps the nobility in line" is a very bad situation in Orlais, I did mention I came to that conclusion after extensive reveal of Orlesian culture and how things work over there. Gaspard will keep things in check for a while, but in the event of his death or simply him losing power for some reason it will lead to chaos because he was keeping the power like tyrants do, with force.
None of the options have massive drawbacks, but this doesn't necessarily apply to things on the long run. Whatever change Gaspard enforced will come crashing down. Politics and the game are not going anywhere in Orlais and Gaspard is trying to remove it. Its simply futile.
Just becasue Gaspard despises the Game doesn't mean he doesn't play, that is made clear in Masked Empire, we also know he does have significant support in many parts of the nobility, particularly the army. You just don't want to acknowledge that because it undersells the narrative you want to craft around his reign.
After he dies there will likely be a period of instability, but that would be normal after the reign of any strong monarch as there is a scramble to find their successor and whether they are made of the same stuff. There is no reason to think Orlais will be any weaker in the long run under Gaspard as opposed to any other combination, and quite honestly lopping the heads off a few of these ridiculous nobles fighting over feigned insults and the wrong color shoes could do Orlais some good.
But the elves were provoked into violence because they have been fed up, as I said before separation is the best solution. But before that I would spy on Gaspard and his supporters, use illicit false information to pit the supporters against Gaspard to lose his support to gain his throne. Then strike him down and his supporters (two birds with one stone) I would have brought the nobility to its knees to be feared to not to be crossed. If Celene was like Aria Gaspard's ass and his supporters would been dead as fried chicken and rule with an iron fist. I get the people's support by treating them well and if one of the noble families who opposed my efforts for peace and stability, will be dealt with and killed.
truly a master strategist could even learn from you, I'm sure none of these ideas ever crossed anyone's mind because of their genetic aggression overpowering their intelligence.
I'm officially skipping reading anymore n7Phantom stuff.
I feel like the people that prefer Gaspard are always anti "The Game". But voting him in doesn't mean he'd abolish it at all; he doesn't just play it because he has to with Celene in power. He also won't get rid of all the other less savory/silly aspects of Orlesian society. He has some noble support but not all, resorts to blackmail and fear to gain more support, embraces the killing of elves. Cheveliers graduate by killing of elves, imagine the terror Elves will live in with him ruling un checked. His solution to the mage templar war was to distract them by getting into another war with Fereldan!. Seriously, his reasoning. What happens when there is unrest again? What war will he start to keep "his people" distracted?
And Gaspard isn't even touted as the best General in Orlais, like Loghain was touted as a tactical genius. The leader of the country need not be a soldier.
except he doesn't invade Ferelden, there's no reason to suspect he's upped the killing of elves (though given the ending of Trespasser mayhaps he should).
Celene doens't have the support of the entire nobility either and she keeps them in line through fear as well, just less fear of ending up on the business end of a headsmen's axe, and mroe fear of being ostracized and isolated from society.
If you live in a society filled with "humans" who are capable of malevolence and capable to destroy anyone who's different you have to be a benevolent dictator and have to rule with an Iron Fist to keep the "humans" @ bay. I learned that for Niccolo Machiavelli of you have to have rules for "humans" to follow because they are capable of commiting evil acts wheb opportunity arises, and you have to be a benevolent dictator to keep the "humans" @ bay.truly a master strategist could even learn from you, I'm sure none of these ideas ever crossed anyone's mind because of their genetic aggression overpowering their intelligence.
If you live in a society filled with "humans" who are capable of malevolence and capable to destroy anyone who's different you have to be a benevolent dictator and have to rule with an Iron Fist to keep the "humans" @ bay. I learned that for Niccolo Machiavelli of you have to have rules for "humans" to follow because they are capable of commiting evil acts wheb opportunity arises, and you have to be a benevolent dictator to keep the "humans" @ bay.
what an excellent way to discover that you actually haven't read any Machiavelli
But still he's the enemy of her throne and what would you do if someone threatened you? You eliminate the enemy right? What I would do way before the diplomatic ball I would send spies to gather information of Gaspard's supporters and conspirators who wants her dead or thwart her power as Empress, find out what their weaknesses are and exploit, threaten, and blackmail the supporters for Gaspard to lose support to distort his agenda to the throne. And after the supporters and the conspirators are dealt with and Gaspard makes a foolish move of assassination, then I would strike him and set him on a public square and execute him to set as an example for the nobility to not cross her. You have to keep the noble families in fear because they've know for being greedy, backstabbing opportunists and they'll conspire to take power for themselves. And then I would set a treaty for elves to have The Emerald Graves and The Arbor Wilds for the elves to have a independent sovereign nation and they could have a temporary alliances with the Grey Warden treaties to fight alongside humans other than that leave the elves alone. All they have to do is to leave elves alone and it would be no problem, and elves who wanted to be with humans as "lovers" so to speak they are exiled automatically to prevent another war. My motto is: Don't start nothing won't be nothing.And again, separation isn't the best solution, because they've tried it repeatedly and it always ends in conflict.
The problem with your suggestion for what Celene could have done, is that it flies contrary to how the Game is played in Orlais. The entire point of the Game is beat your enemy without appearing to have done anything at all, nor leaving any evidence that you had undermined them, rather than making extremely brazen moves and leaving a paper trail that make it clear to everyone what you're doing.
As much as he hates the Game, even Gaspard is aware of the rules and how to play it. That's why he didn't attempt to murder Celene until they were alone, rather than attempting to do it in front of the other nobles. If he murdered her openly, then that would have given Celene's loyalists reason to oppose his attempt to take the throne. Whereas if she died in a "tragic hunting accident", it would be suspicious but none of Celene's loyalists could actively prove his involvement in her death.
The same goes for why Celene simply doesn't have Gaspard murdered on the spot during the peace talks at the Winter Palace. She had to wait until he made a wrong move that would give her reason to have him executed, such as proof he violated the ceasefire and/or conspired to have her assassinated.
That's exactly what I learned my knowledge from is from Machiavelli.what an excellent way to discover that you actually haven't read any Machiavelli
That's exactly what I learned my knowledge from is from Machiavelli.
well then you'd know that Machiavelli advocated for Republican government as the ideal
I never said I hated anyone, I just see who they really are.Lol, "blue eyed devil"
I don't care who you hate, just don't be a stereotype about it,
I never said I hated anyone, I just see who they really are.
ah yes, its not racist, its scientifically true that white people are genetically predisposed towards aggression and brutality!
Like I said, phrenologists and flat Earthers would shake their head at you
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