2341 réponses à ce sujet

[Lulupab]

Antiva didn't defeat the Qunari. it was because of the Marchers and Pirates that the Qunari were pushed out of Antiva. You can't say America defeated the English Navy when it was actually the French Navy who did. And the leaders are Afraid of the Crows because someone can pay them to kill them. they would only do that if they were payed to. same with the pirates. if Orlais payed them to not get in the way they wouldn't. Antiva thrives because they make deals. otherwise they have no protection what so ever. but because they have such a trade empire they can pay the pirates not to attack their shipments and protect them sometimes too. but otherwise they have no constant protection and the Qunari are afraid of the Pirates and Crows. Not of Antiva it self, Since Antiva is nothing but a nation of merchants and back stabs.

 

But that's what Antiva is! That's exactly how the Italian city states were run. Money was everything and people with money had armies and pirates and automatically became sort of nobles. The original Antivans were pirates who decided to settle in that land instead of being on the sea all the time. Those pirates, assassins and mercenaries are all independent however they all owe their money to existence of Antiva itself therefore when there is war they are quite united. Felicisima Armada that defeated and crippled the Qunari naval invasion is an independent pirate fleet but if Antiva is in danger they will protect their gains and that means Antiva must survive.

 

 

The crows would only assassinate Gaspard if someone paid them to

 

You'd think someone in the richest nation would pay them if they see their very money source is threatened.

[Mihura]

I wouldn't call Briala honorable. Not by a long shot. 

 

Stabbing Celene in the back in order to extend the war and cause as many deaths and as much chaos as possible is anything but honorable. 

 

Did you forget the part where Celene just killed her parents? besides Briala is honorable because her people are the elves and she seems to be doing everything in her power to help them, not some ****** contest over thrones.

 

 

Gaspard has support of the military and nobility, Celene does not have a monopoly on it

 

Briala isn't exactly honorable, mostly because she doesn't care about honor.  Gaspard is the one who has a code and sticks to it.  Clearly the Chevalier code does not extend to fighting your countrymen

 

Gaspard is awful at the game, he does not care at all. A country like Orlais, with too much power center in the nobles needs some kinda of appeasement, when it comes to them.
A war is a good solution, unless Gaspard wants infighting and dangerous nobles that want power for themselves and land.

 

So no, Gaspard will not have the nobility under control in the future not even by a long shot, unless there is conflict in the future outside of Orlais. Gaspard only sticks to the Code of the Chevaliers sometimes, he is quite flexible, which is a smart mentality in my book.

[Steelcan]

Fighting for a noble cause and being a victim don't make you honorable. She wouldn't make claims to having honor I imagine

[Kieran G.]

Did you forget the part where Celene just killed her parents? besides Briala is honorable because her people are the elves and she seems to be doing everything in her power to help them, not some ****** contest over thrones.

Not to butt in but Briala plan is very short sighted at best. and she acted on impulse and emotion which is the same thing that cause Celene to have an opening for attack by Gaspard. Since Gaspard was trained as a Chevalier he has a detachment from killing and feelings like that. 

 

Also i love your profile picture. this new season is going to be amazing!

[Spectre Impersonator]

Gaspard isn't honourable as much as he is wiling to tell himself and everyone around him that he's chilavrous, but honestly that just makes him a hypocrite. 

"Honor does not preclude tactics" is the dude's catchphrase. He seemed pretty chivalrous to me, cutting down an ally mid-fight do to his dishonorable tactics, as well as putting himself at great risk in order to save an enemy.

 

 

o.o Because that is how you achieve greatness.

And what, specifically, is greatness?

[Spectre Impersonator]

Yep. Im siding with Celene. Ferelden is toast if Gaspard rules.

Alistair hinted that Orlais was going to attack even under Celene...

 

And we have seen how infirm she is in the face of opposition from the nobles.....

 

Either way, I feel Ferelden is hardly toast. They whipped Orlais before and will do so again. This time it will be even easier with Orlais consumed in Civil War and being conquered by the Elder One.

I wouldn't call Briala honorable. Not by a long shot. 

 

Stabbing Celene in the back in order to extend the war and cause as many deaths and as much chaos as possible is anything but honorable. 

Have to agree here. Briala doesn't care about honor, by her very nature as a bard. She is all about stealth and secrecy. She'll cut your throat or put an arrow through you in cold blood if it resolves a situation to her advantage. This doesn't mean she's without virtue. I think she may be the most sympathetic character in Masked Empire and possibly the most selfless... but honorable? Haha, no.

Neither. She's not a traitor, and never will be. Even if Gaspard becomes emperor, Celene never betrayed Orlais.

Never betrayed Orlais, sure. What about her only loving and trustful relationship? What she did to Briala nets her that descriptor in the thread title.

[Black Jimmy]

Which is this is most definitely not.

Sure, not now. During the book though, she was the best choice in my opinion.

Now? Hard to say, I think Gaspard loses points when the war is against it's monarch as Orlais wouldn't be at war if now for his machinations.

And Celene wouldn't be leading the battle against The Elder One, we will. I think she'd do a good job as an organizer in getting Orlais to follow us.

That and she won't declare war on Fereldan post credits 

[Master Warder Z_]

And what, specifically, is greatness?

 

the quality of being great, distinguished, or eminent.

 

That is the definition.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The Felicisma Armada is based out of Llomerryn in Rivain. I don't think it's strictly exclusively related or allied with Antiva. Is it?

[In Exile]

 

"Honor does not preclude tactics" is the dude's catchphrase. He seemed pretty chivalrous to me, cutting down an ally mid-fight do to his dishonorable tactics, as well as putting himself at great risk in order to save an enemy.

 

That's what I mean about the hypocrisy - Gaspard has a code, but it's just his personal morals (as infused by his own culture) on what's right/wrong combined with his own selfish interest. 

 

Although I'd (without getting into spoilers) put down his heroic act more as being about his ego - he wants to win his way, as opposed to just win. 

[atamajakki]

I honestly think Celene and Gaspard are both pretty awful people, but I also think that a certain degree of awfulness is needed to run an empire. At least Gaspard is honest about being scum while Celene plays at being a good person, and his chevalier honor makes me like him even more. If it comes to a choice between them, it's Gaspard for sure.

 

I think one of the gameplay videos showed a potential third option, but I don't know how to spoiler on these forums.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Gaspard seems like he'd be a better leader of Orlais for dealing with a Veil Crisis, but Celene seems like she'd be a superior leader for Orlais after it has been dealt with.

[Master Warder Z_]

That's what I mean about the hypocrisy - Gaspard has a code, but it's just his personal morals (as infused by his own culture) on what's right/wrong combined with his own selfish interest. 

 

Although I'd (without getting into spoilers) put down his heroic act more as being about his ego - he wants to win his way, as opposed to just win. 

 

His code seems pretty heavily influenced by his Chevalier training.

[In Exile]

His code seems pretty heavily influenced by his Chevalier training.

 

Yeah, but that Code is pretty fucked when you think about it. 

[Mihura]

Fighting for a noble cause and being a victim don't make you honorable. She wouldn't make claims to having honor I imagine

 

I know honor can be define in abstracts ways so I would say that maybe your concept of it, is quite different from mine. Maybe you associated it with social rank and duty. Also Gaspard never killed Michel and it was his duty when he found out about Michel heritage but somehow he kills Remache for attacking Celene?

For what I seen Gaspard only follows the honor code of his social rank when it is convenient or makes sense to him. 

 

 

Not to butt in but Briala plan is very short sighted at best. and she acted on impulse and emotion which is the same thing that cause Celene to have an opening for attack by Gaspard. Since Gaspard was trained as a Chevalier he has a detachment from killing and feelings like that. 

 

Also i love your profile picture. this new season is going to be amazing!

 

Not really she was seeing the complete picture, Celene and Gaspard would always put the thrones and their nobles first. So Briala did the best she could, having some kind of advantage over them. She is short sighted yes, when it comes to ending the war right there but that was not Briala main concern. She also predict Gaspard ambush I think she is quite cable of seeing ahead.

OffTopic: Yes I am loving so far this season, with only two epis lol

[raging_monkey]

Yeah, but that Code is pretty fucked when you think about it.

very

[Kieran G.]

Not really she was seeing the complete picture, Celene and Gaspard would always put the thrones and their nobles first. So Briala did the best she could, having some kind of advantage over them. She is short sighted yes, when it comes to ending the war right there but that was not Briala main concern. She also predict Gaspard ambush I think she is quite cable of seeing ahead.

OffTopic: Yes I am loving so far this season, with only two epis lol

When i said short sighted i meant her action with the Elves. what she plans to do is cause more of a separation between Humans and Elves only causing more distrust and if she does attempt a mass exodus it would cause a continental economic collapsed which would cause only more hate and blame on the Elves and if they took back the dales with force it would just cause again more hate to be directed towards the elves and thousands of Elves without jobs or homes in a new land who all their lives have work at factories or other little shops but will now have to build homes and farm and do things they are not used to with no real economy which might make some Elves wish they were back in the Cities but if they try to go back they will only be met with hate and blame for the Sovereign being worth less than it was worth before.

 

Even if she did this just in Orlais it would cause ripples which would go far beyond "my people deserve this" it's noble, it's idealistic, it's ignorant. With leaders like Alistair and Celene who were attempting to bring elves up in social standing which would of course take time but eventually they would be given equal rights, but she is trying to start a race war which will only further the hate. even if the Elves of Val'Royeaux are only 20 percent of the population that would be 20 percent of missing worker just gone. that would cause a huge amount of damage to the economy which would in turn hurt trade. and if she was taking elves from every nation, Monarchs would be forced to bring the elves back. most likely a exalted march wouldn't even need to be called for all the human nations to drag elves back to a social standing to a time where they were nothing but slaves. Even the Inquisition couldn't help the Elves in that matter because if they did the people would turn against them and they would stop getting aid from the nations and eventually they might even turn on them. 

[raging_monkey]

When i said short sighted i meant her action with the Elves. what she plans to do is cause more of a separation between Humans and Elves only causing more distrust and if she does attempt a mass exodus it would cause a continental economic collapsed which would cause only more hate and blame on the Elves and if they took back the dales with force it would just cause again more hate to be directed towards the elves and thousands of Elves without jobs or homes in a new land who all their lives have work at factories or other little shops but will now have to build homes and farm and do things they are not used to with no real economy which might make some Elves wish they were back in the Cities but if they try to go back they will only be met with hate and blame for the Sovereign being worth less than it was worth before. Even if she did this just in Orlais it would cause ripples which would go far beyond "my people deserve this" it's noble, it's idealistic, it's ignorant. With leaders like Alistair and Celene who were attempting to bring elves up in social standing which would of course take time but eventually they would be given equal rights, but she is trying to start a race war which will only further the hate. even if the Elves of Val'Royeaux are only 20 percent of the population that would be 20 percent of missing worker just gone. that would cause a huge amount of damage to the economy which would in turn hurt trade. and if she was taking elves from every nation, Monarchs would be forced to bring the elves back. most likely a exalted march wouldn't even need to be called for all the human nations to drag elves back to a social standing to a time where they were nothing but slaves. Even the Inquisition couldn't help the Elves in that matter because if they did the people would turn against them and they would stop getting aid from the nations and eventually they might even turn on them.

im a elven support for many reasons but briala plan just hurts the cause even if they succed. There numbers would on the endangered species list

[Mihura]

When i said short sighted i meant her action with the Elves. what she plans to do is cause more of a separation between Humans and Elves only causing more distrust and if she does attempt a mass exodus it would cause a continental economic collapsed which would cause only more hate and blame on the Elves and if they took back the dales with force it would just cause again more hate to be directed towards the elves and thousands of Elves without jobs or homes in a new land who all their lives have work at factories or other little shops but will now have to build homes and farm and do things they are not used to with no real economy which might make some Elves wish they were back in the Cities but if they try to go back they will only be met with hate and blame for the Sovereign being worth less than it was worth before.

 

Even if she did this just in Orlais it would cause ripples which would go far beyond "my people deserve this" it's noble, it's idealistic, it's ignorant. With leaders like Alistair and Celene who were attempting to bring elves up in social standing which would of course take time but eventually they would be given equal rights, but she is trying to start a race war which will only further the hate. even if the Elves of Val'Royeaux are only 20 percent of the population that would be 20 percent of missing worker just gone. that would cause a huge amount of damage to the economy which would in turn hurt trade. and if she was taking elves from every nation, Monarchs would be forced to bring the elves back. most likely a exalted march wouldn't even need to be called for all the human nations to drag elves back to a social standing to a time where they were nothing but slaves. Even the Inquisition couldn't help the Elves in that matter because if they did the people would turn against them and they would stop getting aid from the nations and eventually they might even turn on them. 

 

Funny thing I agree with all you said about the consequences but I disagree about it not being a solution.

I think the elves at this point would be fools to wait for human rulers to give them rights, that did not work with Andraste and it is not gonna to work now either. I would say that maybe there was a change for a more peaceful solution before the slaughter that Celene and Gaspard did. Now I just hope it does not come to other exalted march like in the past against the elves, like you said but humans are not their future if they want to survive as a race.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Neither. She's not a traitor, and never will be. Even if Gaspard becomes emperor, Celene never betrayed Orlais. And she's certainly not a savior considering that Orlais got embroiled in civil war on her watch.

 

What she IS is a horrible empress. Let's start with her first mistake. She dallied with a female elf since her teen years, all the while refusing to marry and have children to prevent a succession crisis. As an empress, it was a duty she blatantly ignored. Using her single status as a bargaining chip in her political life is a worthy strategy. But overuse of that strategy can create an unnecessary succession crisis that can lead to war, which is why so many nobles where willing to side with Gaspard. If Celene was a married woman with few children, her rule would have been much more solidified, and she could have carried on with Briala to her heart's content.

 

The next mistake was her refusal of Gaspard's marriage proposal. She KNEW he was offering her a chance to avoid war. She knew he was serious, what kind of man he was. And she refused because she just couldn't let Briala go. As a empress, this was a selfish, idiotic decision that has brought and enormous death and destruction on the people that Celene swore to protect and defend as their ruler. Had she just swallowed her pride and her attachment to Briala, countless innocent lives would have been spared.

 

The last major mistake? Taking Gaspard's bait and sending troops to crush the elven rebellion. She underestimated Gaspard's political and military skill, and it cost her her best, most loyal troops. The fact that Gaspard tried to kill her should have indicated to her what Gaspard was willing to do. I'm not saying she should have seen Gaspard's every move. Just that she should have thought it through. 'Why is Gaspard trying to provoke me?' 'What does he want/expect me to do?' Had she asked herself these questions before going off to slaughter the elves, her men wouldn't have had to pay such a high price for a political mistake.

 

However, all of these mistakes aren't the reason I hate Celene. It's that she made them after Briala's parents and the rest of her household paid such a high price to make her empress. She has them killed, but doesn't marry and produce an heir. She has them killed, but won't marry Gaspard to prevent civil war. She has them killed, but reacts to Gaspard's bait so foolishly. They pay the price for her rule with their lives, and she bungles it all up so spectacularly.

 

She and Lady Mantillion believed she'd be better for Orlais than the aged Florian. How, exactly, has she been better?

 

Yep. This is pretty much my opinion on Celene. 

 

She is a terrible empress. At least Anora is willing to acknowledge reason and end up marrying either Alistair or Cousland. I doubt Celene will, given that Gaspard actually tried to do that and she decided to assault him for it. 

[Spectre Impersonator]

the quality of being great, distinguished, or eminent.

 

That is the definition.

And what makes a nation or world power great, specifically?

[Yinello]

Celene makes too many mistakes and Gaspard will never get the elite to obey him. Here's hoping Orlais has a hidden bastard kid to take the throne or that country is up for some major fun times.

[Steelcan]

Celene makes too many mistakes and Gaspard will never get the elite to obey him. Here's hoping Orlais has a hidden bastard kid to take the throne or that country is up for some major fun times.

but Gaspard already has support among the elite

[Master Warder Z_]

And what makes a nation or world power great, specifically?

 

The ability to exert influence across its territory and outside of it.

 

The ability to provide for its people, to enable their continued existence.

 

And finally the ability to allow the expansion of territory to accompany the usage of resources.

[Yinello]

but Gaspard already has support among the elite

 

Orlais love the Game. Gaspard doesn't seem to. This will clash and it's just waiting on that one elite who will send assassins or who will convince the others with their silver tongue. He'll need to work a lot to keep the entire elite happy.

 

People hate Celene for it but being ruthless is necessary if you want to win and I don't feel Gaspard has that.