2341 réponses à ce sujet

[Jaison1986]

They'll find a way.

It's far more likely the elves would need to migrate to uncharted lands if they ever hoped to start a second Dales.

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

It's far more likely the elves would need to migrate to uncharted lands if they ever hoped to start a second Dales.

But it belonged to the elves once and they should have it back, and only then they can start a community away from human influence. Besides the elves don't even need humans to survive they can have their own business, schools, agriculture, and their own circles on their own. It was humans who want the elves to live under them to suffer and beg, if I was Celene I would give those lands back for the elves to start anew.

[veeia]

Because Gaspard is a military minded men. He is the perfect ally for the times the Inquisitor finds him/herself in. He is also completely against the petty game, wich is a plus in my book. Not to mention the legitimate heir of the throne. Celene did stole it from him through her machinations.

 

The biggest issue for me is that Cullen mentions that people want to support Gaspard because they believe he will restore the Orlesian empire, while Celene favors diplomacy with nearby nations. The argument that Gaspard is a better choice for the short term might have some merit, but the idea that it might plunge the world into war again immediately after gives some pause. Your character could not give a fig about that and be fine with it or actively support such aims so it's possible to go with that, but it's odd that Cullen, a Fereldan, supports a man who he believes will get things done while mentioning that one of the things he wants to do is expand the empire knowing their history with occupying Fereldan.

[Heimdall]

But it belonged to the elves once and they should have it back, and only then they can start a community away from human influence. Besides the elves don't even need humans to survive they can have their own business, schools, agriculture, and their own circles on their own. It was humans who want the elves to live under them to suffer and beg, if I was Celene I would give those lands back for the elves to start anew.

It belonged to the elves because a human gave it to them, and then they only lived there for a brief time.

More to the point, where exactly are you going to put the humans you're uprooting from their ancestral homes?

[Xilizhra]

It belonged to the elves because a human gave it to them, and then they only lived there for a brief time.

More to the point, where exactly are you going to put the humans you're uprooting from their ancestral homes?

Personally, I wouldn't uproot anyone. If humans want to live in an elf-governed realm, they're perfectly free to stay.

[Heimdall]

Personally, I wouldn't uproot anyone. If humans want to live in an elf-governed realm, they're perfectly free to stay.

I have no objections to this. Though Briala being marquise of the Dales is probably the closest they'll get to this.

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

It belonged to the elves because a human gave it to them, and then they only lived there for a brief time.
More to the point, where exactly are you going to put the humans you're uprooting from their ancestral homes?

Look at the architecture and their sculpture it means that it was theirs, but the humans robbed them out of it and claim it was theirs, that's just another whole concept of Manifest Destiny mentality. And they deserve to have a place of their own and no human will ever be welcomed to the elven community, the only thing they would be an alliance is to fight the darkspawn and that is it. They should be independent from human influence and the Chantry cannot set their missionaries there nor settle to convert their religious brainwashing upon the elves to worship an imaginary figure of a god. It's a win-win situation the humans won't have to be with elves and the elves won't have to be with humans and that is separation.

[Heimdall]

Look at the architecture and their sculpture it means that it was theirs, but the humans robbed them out of it and claim it was theirs, that's just another whole concept of Manifest Destiny mentality. And they deserve to have a place of their own and no human will ever be welcomed to the elven community, the only thing they would be an alliance is to fight the darkspawn and that is it. They should be independent from human influence and the Chantry cannot set their missionaries there nor settle to convert their religious brainwashing upon the elves to worship an imaginary figure of a god. It's a win-win situation the humans won't have to be with elves and the elves won't have to be with humans and that is separation.

...Which they built after a human gave it to them. Though of course, if all it takes to have claim over the land is impressive architectural displays then the Orlesians still have the right to most of it. This isn't manifest destiny, this is an acknowledgement of reality. The reality is that the humans are there and have been for 700 years, which is over twice as long as the Kingdom of the Dales even existed, so longer than the elves lived there by far.

Besides which, elvish religious brainwashing is okay but human religious brainwashing is bad?

[Shechinah]

Besides which, elvish religious brainwashing is okay but human religious brainwashing is bad?

 

Because apparently the way to counter percieved indoctrination is not by giving people options, allowing them to form their own opinions and choose their own beliefs but instead with more indoctrination!

 

There's nothing wrong with indoctrination, Heimdall, it's only bad when humans use it! 
 

[Xilizhra]

...Which they built after a human gave it to them.

Forgive me, but how does an Alamarri leader granting the Dalish land make it less brutal land theft/genocide when a bunch of Orlesians come in and steal it?

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

...Which they built after a human gave it to them. Though of course, if all it takes to have claim over the land is impressive architectural displays then the Orlesians still have the right to most of it. This isn't manifest destiny, this is an acknowledgement of reality. The reality is that the humans are there and have been for 700 years, which is over twice as long as the Kingdom of the Dales even existed, so longer than the elves lived there by far.
Besides which, elvish religious brainwashing is okay but human religious brainwashing is bad?

But it's the elves ancestral home where the Emerald Knights fought valiantly against humans, and the fact is that if you defeat the enemy and get them into convert their religion to worship their god to embrace their religion but not theirs that's a form of cultural genocide and another form of mind control by forcing the elves to covert into their religion(http://articles.exch...-works.html?m=1) But it would be a better solution by separating to create stability between two peoples.

[Heimdall]

Forgive me, but how does an Alamarri leader granting the Dalish land make it less brutal land theft/genocide when a bunch of Orlesians come in and steal it?

It doesn't, I'm just poking N7Phantom's assertion that they have some ancestral right to the land now that justifies kicking all the humans now.

[The Elder King]

But it's the elves ancestral home where the Emerald Knights fought valiantly against humans, and the fact is that if you defeat the enemy and get them into convert their religion to worship their god to embrace their religion but not theirs that's a form of cultural genocide and another form of mind control by forcing the elves to covert into their religion(http://articles.exch...-works.html?m=1) But it would be a better solution by separating to create stability between two peoples.

The elves' ancestral home is Arlathan, not the Dales.

And you're forgetting the fact that it was a war, not an invasion. A war where the elves invaded Orlais and nearly sacked their capital city. Both sides fought to kill, defeat and destroy their opponent. Wars generally have hard consequences for the losers. Have the Dales conquered Orlais, the elves wouldn't have treated the Orlesians any better. 

[byne]

 

And they deserve to have a place of their own and no human will ever be welcomed to the elven community, the only thing they would be an alliance is to fight the darkspawn and that is it.

 

Fighting racism with more racism, the N7Phantom way!

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

Fighting racism with more racism, the N7Phantom way!

*scoffs* Really? How's leaving people alone and not allowing people who are known for killing and raping a different group of people is racist? How very observant of you.

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

The elves' ancestral home is Arlathan, not the Dales.
And you're forgetting the fact that it was a war, not an invasion. A war where the elves invaded Orlais and nearly sacked their capital city. Both sides fought to kill, defeat and destroy their opponent. Wars generally have hard consequences for the losers. Have the Dales conquered Orlais, the elves wouldn't have treated the Orlesians any better.

All they have to do is to leave each other alone to prevent a war that's how I see it. "Don't mess with me and I won't mess with you." And why not give the elves back their home anyways? It would be the perfect solution to solve all problems but they refuse.

[Xilizhra]

The elves' ancestral home is Arlathan, not the Dales.

And you're forgetting the fact that it was a war, not an invasion. A war where the elves invaded Orlais and nearly sacked their capital city. Both sides fought to kill, defeat and destroy their opponent. Wars generally have hard consequences for the losers. Have the Dales conquered Orlais, the elves wouldn't have treated the Orlesians any better. 

Arlathan was just one city. Elvhenan was spread out all over Thedas. I also fail to see how a total war can be finished without an invasion; I also find it seriously unlikely that the elves would have razed the entirety of Orlais to the ground and forced the majority of humans into servitude.

[Dean_the_Young]

Arlathan was just one city. Elvhenan was spread out all over Thedas. I also fail to see how a total war can be finished without an invasion; I also find it seriously unlikely that the elves would have razed the entirety of Orlais to the ground and forced the majority of humans into servitude.

 

You mean like the elves did the rest of Thedas in the time of Arlathan?

[Dean_the_Young]

Look at the architecture and their sculpture it means that it was theirs, but the humans robbed them out of it and claim it was theirs, that's just another whole concept of Manifest Destiny mentality.

 

Manifest Destiny in the American context was based more on the idea of North American being terra nullis (empty land to be settled) rather than conquest of a pre-established civilization, which is what Tevinter (which is not the same as 'the humans') did to the elves.

 

If there's a lingering manifest destiny sentiment in the Dragon Age, it's the romanticization of the ancient elven civilization towards the rest of Thedas. The absence of history is treated as an absence of others, even though we know that the ancient elves waged war and subjugated others.

 

And they deserve to have a place of their own and no human will ever be welcomed to the elven community, the only thing they would be an alliance is to fight the darkspawn and that is it.

 

 

Oh, hey, the failing of the Dales that sowed animosity between Orlais and the Dalish. N7's failure of history strikes again.

 

 

They should be independent from human influence and the Chantry cannot set their missionaries there nor settle to convert their religious brainwashing upon the elves to worship an imaginary figure of a god. It's a win-win situation the humans won't have to be with elves and the elves won't have to be with humans and that is separation.

 

 

Out of curiosity, what sort of oppression would the elves who don't want to follow the Chant be justified in inflicting on elves who would want to follow the chant?

 

Will elves who wish to convert and practice Chantry worship be exiled as race traitors, or are we talking more about re-education centers and religious oppression for non-state sanctioned religions?

[Shechinah]

I think there seems to be some misinformation here.

 

I'll try to clarify; 

 

Elvhenan was the name of the ancient civilisation of the elves and Arlathan was the capital of the empire. According to Abelas, the Elvhenan's fall was not brought on by humas but by elves. Additionally and according to the Wikipedia, Abelas compares the supposed war Tevinter had with the elves as being "no more than carrion picking over a corpse."

 

The Dales was the name of the civilisation located in south-eastern Orlais and Halamshiral was the capital of the country. It was land granted to the elves by the sons of Maferath and Andraste and the land was at the time of this populated by the scattered Ciriane to the west. 

 

It was the Dales that came into conflict with Orlais and not the Elvhenan empire that did.  

[The Elder King]

 

Arlathan was just one city. Elvhenan was spread out all over Thedas. I also fail to see how a total war can be finished without an invasion; I also find it seriously unlikely that the elves would have razed the entirety of Orlais to the ground and forced the majority of humans into servitude.

It doesn't change the fact that the Dales aren't the elves ancestral home.

Bu not being an invasion I meant the war didn't start with Orlais invading the Dales. And I do agree that they wouldn't have made the Orlesians slaves or servants, because of the (false) thought humans caused their loss of immortality. They'd have oblitared them if they had the chance. Otherwise, what was their plan? Sack Orlais until they ask for peace? In time the Orlesian woud've fight again against them.

[Shechinah]

The Wikipedia credits the Dales' neutrality and apparent indifference to the Blight and the destruction it brought as having fueled the hostility between the Dales and Orlais including by rumors of elves practicing human sacrifices. This being before the Red Crossing incident.

 

These rumors would be more difficult to disprove, in my opinion, given that the elves had resorted to isolation by this time.   

[The Elder King]

The Wikipedia credits the Dales' neutrality and apparent indifference to the Blight and the destruction it brought as having fueled the hostility between the Dales and Orlais including by rumors of elves practicing human sacrifices. This being before the Red Crossing incident.

 

These rumors would be more difficult to disprove, in my opinion, given that the elves had resorted to isolation by this time.   

I think the hostility was fueled by both sides. The Chantry in any case wanted the elves to convert to the Maker. Both sides were at fault for what happened.

Not fighting against the Blight was pure idiocy in any case, since it'd have come to bite them in their asses if it wasn't stopped.

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

Manifest Destiny in the American context was based more on the idea of North American being terra nullis (empty land to be settled) rather than conquest of a pre-established civilization, which is what Tevinter (which is not the same as 'the humans') did to the elves.
 
If there's a lingering manifest destiny sentiment in the Dragon Age, it's the romanticization of the ancient elven civilization towards the rest of Thedas. The absence of history is treated as an absence of others, even though we know that the ancient elves waged war and subjugated others.
 

 
Oh, hey, the failing of the Dales that sowed animosity between Orlais and the Dalish. N7's failure of history strikes again.

 

 
Out of curiosity, what sort of oppression would the elves who don't want to follow the Chant be justified in inflicting on elves who would want to follow the chant?
 
Will elves who wish to convert and practice Chantry worship be exiled as race traitors, or are we talking more about re-education centers and religious oppression for non-state sanctioned religions?

If you force them to convert into your religion against their will that's considered a cultural genocide and a brainwashing tool to seep into the subconscious mind of elves to bow down and worship humans as gods. And they didn't even got a chance to heal from their pain and anger of humans who enslaved them, and what would be the point of being with humans anyways and they are known for hating other people who doesn't look like them and want to harm them?

[Shechinah]

I think the hostility was fueled by both sides. The Chantry in any case wanted the elves to convert to the Maker. Both sides were at fault for what happened.

 

Oh, I do think there was an aspect to the increasing hostility that was fueled by religious intolerance on both sides but I wanted to add in that there was a large and weighing aspect to the hostility that had nothing to do with religious beliefs.