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[The Elder King]

If you force them to convert into your religion against their will that's considered a cultural genocide and a brainwashing tool to seep into the subconscious mind of elves to bow down and worship humans as gods. And they didn't even got a chance to heal from their pain and anger of humans who enslaved them, and what would be the point of being with humans anyways and they are known for hating other people who doesn't look like them and want to harm them?

Elves, on the other hand, are renown for their tolerance against other species...oh wait. They disliked humans as much as human disliked elves during the Orlais-Dales hostility. Both races have people who don't tolerate other species, which is evident even today in Thedas.

Also, if the elves didn't like the deal the humans made, they coudl've joined the other dalish. Again, war has generally hard consequences on the losers.

[Xilizhra]

Elves, on the other hand, are renown for their tolerance against other species...oh wait. They disliked humans as much as human disliked elves during the Orlais-Dales hostility. Both races have people who don't tolerate other species, which is evident even today in Thedas.

Also, if the elves didn't like the deal the humans made, they coudl've joined the other dalish. Again, war has generally hard consequences on the losers.

The mere frequency of such a phenomenon as "hard consequences" does not justify it in any way. I get the strong impression from some people that the genocide of the Dales only "counts" if the Dalish were universally, incorruptibly pure of heart.

[The Elder King]

The mere frequency of such a phenomenon as "hard consequences" does not justify it in any way. I get the strong impression from some people that the genocide of the Dales only "counts" if the Dalish were universally, incorruptibly pure of heart.

I don't think it was justified. It was a terrible thing, what the humans did. Me thinking the dalish weren't better then the Orlesians, or that wars have those kind of consequences, doesn't mean that what happened after the war is justified in any way. To think howewer that there wouldn't be consequences is naive. Orlais coudn't afford to have the Dales at their door, with the threat of another war in the future, the same way the Dales coudn't have afforded to just defeat Orlais. 

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

Elves, on the other hand, are renown for their tolerance against other species...oh wait. They disliked humans as much as human disliked elves during the Orlais-Dales hostility. Both races have people who don't tolerate other species, which is evident even today in Thedas.
Also, if the elves didn't like the deal the humans made, they coudl've joined the other dalish. Again, war has generally hard consequences on the losers.

That's because if the trauma of what they've gone through through the years of slavery from the Imperium, so of course they would hold animosity towards them because of it. And the fact of the matter is is that humans who are constantly killing, raping, and dehumanize elves that fuels animosity towards humans even more it would become pointless to coexist with them. And what gives the Chantry the right to interfere with the war between the elves and Orlais anyways? They should've stepped up to have peace talks and set up a treaty to benefit both sides but they didn't. They want the elves to fight so they could have an excuse to treat them less than human beings that proves otherwise.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

If you force them to convert into your religion against their will that's considered a cultural genocide and a brainwashing

At least you acknowledge that your plan is cultural genocide and indoctrination of the City Elves. Or is that okay because you're making them more elfy?

[The Elder King]

That's because if the trauma of what they've gone through through the years of slavery from the Imperium, so of course they would hold animosity towards them because of it. And the fact if the natter is is that humans who are constantly killing, raping, and dehumanize elves that fuels animosity towards humans even more it would become pointless to coexist with them. And what gives the Chantry the right to interfere with the war between the elves and Orlais anyways? They should've stepped up to have peace talks and set up a treaty to benefit both sides but they didn't. They want the elves to fight so they could have an excuse to treat them less than human beings that proves otherwise.

Some dalish kill humans, which might not even know they're near a dalish camp, without second thought. It's not really much better. 

The Chantry and Orlais have/had a extreme close relationship. Regardless, the Chantry isn't a foreign nation. It's an organization which has its center in Orlais, the country the elves were sacking. 

Not that the Chantry didn't have their own interest in supporting Orlais over the Dales (other then the close relationship, their goal is to convert everyone), but I doubt I'd be that happy to try to make peace with someone who's invading me. Also, you're assuming the elves had any interest in peace, or would've listened to the Chantry as a peacemaker. Considering they were the first to actually invade the other, I doubt they have any intention to stop the war peacefully.

Besides, you're blaming the Chantry to supporting Orlais and not trying to stop the Orlesian-Dale war, and don't blame the elves to sit on their asses while the Blight ravaged other countries, a Blight which they should've known that it not stopped it would've cause harm for themselves as well?

[Xilizhra]

I don't think it was justified. It was a terrible thing, what the humans did. Me thinking the dalish weren't better then the Orlesians, or that wars have those kind of consequences, doesn't mean that what happened after the war is justified in any way. To think howewer that there wouldn't be consequences is naive. Orlais coudn't afford to have the Dales at their door, with the threat of another war in the future, the same way the Dales coudn't have afforded to just defeat Orlais. 

What I wonder, here, is why any of this is important. The land, ultimately, remains stolen. Of course, if Briala does become Marquise of the Dales and the inheritance of such remains with the elves, that's a good first step.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

That's because if the trauma of what they've gone through through the years of slavery from the Imperium, so of course they would hold animosity towards them because of it. And the fact of the matter is is that humans who are constantly killing, raping, and dehumanize elves that fuels animosity towards humans even more it would become pointless to coexist with them. And what gives the Chantry the right to interfere with the war between the elves and Orlais anyways? They should've stepped up to have peace talks and set up a treaty to benefit both sides but they didn't. They want the elves to fight so they could have an excuse to treat them less than human beings that proves otherwise.

The Chantry got involved because the Dales invaders were slaughtering Chantry people. A religion has a right to defend themselves from people who want to exterminate them, as you yourself have argued. 

And no, the Chantry doesn't treat elves as sub-human considering they have elves as priests/priestesses and even members of the Templar and Seeker Orders. 

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

At least you acknowledge that your plan is cultural genocide and indoctrination of the City Elves. Or is that okay because you're making them more elfy?

*deep sigh* You're missing the point of what I said. It's not their religion it was forced on them and the reason why the city elves adapt to is because of human supremacy who educate them into a religion and not encouraging them to practice their own. You following me now? OK good. And they should learn their history of the downfall of elves and regain themselves and uniting to have a new way of thinking.

[Shechinah]

That's because if the trauma of what they've gone through through the years of slavery from the Imperium, so of course they would hold animosity towards them because of it. And the fact of the matter is is that humans who are constantly killing, raping, and dehumanize elves that fuels animosity towards humans even more it would become pointless to coexist with them. And what gives the Chantry the right to interfere with the war between the elves and Orlais anyways? They should've stepped up to have peace talks and set up a treaty to benefit both sides but they didn't. They want the elves to fight so they could have an excuse to treat them less than human beings that proves otherwise.

 

I would like to see which sources you are referencing here because there is a whole lot of everything I do not recall reading or seeing when I was looking things up.  

 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

*deep sigh* You're missing the point of what I said. It's not their religion it was forced on them and the reason why the city elves adapt to is because of human supremacy who educate them into a religion and not encouraging them to practice their own. You following me now? OK good. And they should learn their history of the downfall of elves and regain themselves and uniting to have a new way of thinking.

So you say forcing a religion on people is bad, but that is exactly what you want to do to them. The only difference is instead of Andraste and the Maker you want them to worship the Creators. The same Creators who treated lower class elves just as badly if not worse than Tevinter did. You want them to know that since you want them to know their history.

And the Chantry is their religion. They have turned it into their religion and it is part of their culture. You have no right to strip them of that and force them to be like you. That is cultural genocide. At best they should be allowed to worship what they want, but they at least should have a choice. 

Which brings up the question again: What would you do with the elves that want to keep part of their culture, like the City Elves?

[The Elder King]

*deep sigh* You're missing the point of what I said. It's not their religion it was forced on them and the reason why the city elves adapt to is because of human supremacy who educate them into a religion and not encouraging them to practice their own. You following me now? OK good. And they should learn their history of the downfall of elves and regain themselves and uniting to have a new way of thinking.

They were free to join the dalish and continue to follow their own religion.

Also, which religion they should follow now? The one we discovered being about a group of almost godly tyrant who treat elves as bad as the Imperium?

[Steelcan]

What I wonder, here, is why any of this is important. The land, ultimately, remains stolen. Of course, if Briala does become Marquise of the Dales and the inheritance of such remains with the elves, that's a good first step.

the elves have no more right to the Dales these days than the Tevinters do to the rest of Thedas

[Shechinah]

*deep sigh* You're missing the point of what I said. It's not their religion it was forced on them and the reason why the city elves adapt to is because of human supremacy who educate them into a religion and not encouraging them to practice their own. You following me now? OK good. And they should learn their history of the downfall of elves and regain themselves and uniting to have a new way of thinking.

 

So if the elves wanted to continue practicing the teaching of Andraste and advocating co-existence wih people of other races including co-inhabitation that would be fine in your idea of a homeland for the elves?
 

We know that at least one elf practiced something that integrated the teachings of the Chantry and the elven pantheon during the time of the Dales. The elf in question being the former Inquisitor Ameridan. He worked alongside and was friends with people of different races. One of these people was the Orlesian Emperor Kordillus Drakon I with whom he was personal friends with.

 

Note: It was Kordillus Drakon II who aided in the fall of the Dales and that was after his father's death,

[Shechinah]

Also, if the elves didn't like the deal the humans made, they coudl've joined the other dalish. Again, war has generally hard consequences on the losers.

 

That would be a bit hard if you were in the territory that had been taken by the Orlesian forces. Moreso, if you happened to  be apart of a seized city. Options tend to be scarce when that's the case.
 

[Steelcan]

That would be a bit hard if you were in the territory that had been taken by the Orlesian forces. Moreso, if you happened to  be apart of a seized city. Options tend to be scarce when that's the case.
 

the immediate survivors might have been a ad upset about it, but there's no large movement among the city elves to revive the Dalish pantheon or way of life so I don't think they are clamoring for it.

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

The Chantry got involved because the Dales invaders were slaughtering Chantry people. A religion has a right to defend themselves from people who want to exterminate them, as you yourself have argued. 
And no, the Chantry doesn't treat elves as sub-human considering they have elves as priests/priestesses and even members of the Templar and Seeker Orders.

Do you have any proof that they're part of being Templars and priestesses?

[Steelcan]

Do you have any proof that they're part of being Templars and priestesses?

yes, there is lore stating it explicitly that there are templar elves

[Lulupab]

Elves are disappearing to join Solas anyway, not sure how he contacts them. But its happening. 

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

I would like to see which sources you are referencing here because there is a whole lot of everything I do not recall reading or seeing when I was looking things up.

I know the facts are there and I did not even said that my words are facts they're just opinions.

Modifié par N7Phantom, 07 juin 2016 - 12:03 .

[The Elder King]

That would be a bit hard if you were in the territory that had been taken by the Orlesian forces. Moreso, if you happened to  be apart of a seized city. Options tend to be scarce when that's the case.
 

Depends. The Dales were already occupied when the dalish were 'formed', I believe. I think the elves had the possibility to leave the Dales/Orlais and become dalish. They just had to choose between remaining and becoming Andrastians or leave.

[Lulupab]

yes, there is lore stating it explicitly that there are templar elves

 

Yeah, but they are extremely rare. 

 

We have Dwarves on their ranks too, very rare as well.

[The Elder King]

Elves are disappearing to join Solas anyway, not sure how he contacts them. But its happening. 

The whole Solas plot isn't a good thing for the elves, considering there are high chances his plan won't succeed.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Do you have any proof that they're part of being Templars and priestesses?

Yes. The lore states that elves can be Templars and Seekers. In fact the character Evangeline was originally going to be an elf. 

As for priestesses, also yes. In Dragon Age 2 if you have Sebastian's DLC, in Act 2 you save a female elf and in Act 3 you get a letter from her and it says how she joined the Chantry and is now a Sister. 

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

So if the elves wanted to continue practicing the teaching of Andraste and advocating co-existence wih people of other races including co-inhabitation that would be fine in your idea of a homeland for the elves?
 
We know that at least one elf practiced something that integrated the teachings of the Chantry and the elven pantheon during the time of the Dales. The elf in question being the former Inquisitor Ameridan. He worked alongside and was friends with people of different races. One of these people was the Orlesian Emperor Kordillus Drakon I with whom he was personal friends with.
 
Note: It was Kordillus Drakon II who aided in the fall of the Dales and that was after his father's death,

I know that part but if it wasn't for the animosity of humans enslaved them and the Dales all of this would've been avoided. And it's just that simple: Leave each other alone.