2341 réponses à ce sujet

[Hanako Ikezawa]

The veil upsets the balance of the world, not sure how you don't understand. Good thing you mentioned Trespasser because there is ZERO evidence of demons being a problem for Elves at the time. That was my point, the veil is not meant to be there. Actually its quite possible the veil significantly increased the "perversion" of spirits to demons. Again upsetting balance.

You mean other than the Codex about the Forbidden Ones, who we know are demons, doing things that resulted in the Evanuris banishing them? In fact one of the things that caused it was them becoming demons. And then the Evanuris warn the other elves about them doing demony things.

 

The pages of this book—memory?—show the blazing forms of the Evanuris banishing a howling spirit from the reaches of the Fade that touch their lands. A voice rings out, stern and imperial:

 

"For abandoning the People in their time of greatest need, for casting aside form to flee to where the Earth could not reach, we declare Xebenkeck and others of her ilk exiled from the lands of the Evanuris. Beware! Their familiarity with shape allows them to travel paths unaided. They may be bound, but only the protection of your gods will fully shield you from their malice. They are Forbidden from the Earth that is our right."

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

Phantom said he'd ignore it as well. 
Orlais being hypocrite on it doesn't make it better. I never said I was a fan of Orlais or that they didn't do terrible things themselves.
I meant it's not just a human problem because it threatens everyone. It's moronic to sit back and not stop the Blight, since it might go on and spread in other countries as well.

*sighs*

[Steelcan]

The veil upsets the balance of the world, not sure how you don't understand. Good thing you mentioned Trespasser because there is ZERO evidence of demons being a problem for Elves at the time. That was my point, the veil is not meant to be there. Actually its quite possible the veil significantly increased the "perversion" of spirits to demons. Again upsetting balance.

The balance of the world prior to the Veil's creation is not an inherently good thing, dunno what's hard about that to understand.  Solas never says that demons never afflicted the ancient elves or would be no problem in a Veil-less world, in fact he says the opposite, however he states that it would be acceptable in that context.

[Lulupab]

It wasn't that they got no aid, its that the elven army sat there at watched Montsimmard get sacked, and the expansion you are talking about did happen years later, hundreds of years later and thus has no bearing on this topic.

 

The Blight may have been unleashed by humans, but it is in no way a "100% human thing" even the Qunari acknowledge that.

 

I meant no other race was responsible for starting it.

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

The problem is, if you don't stop it when it's on Orlesian territory and it spreads to yours, you're suffering more then in the second case. Lands are destroyed, and your people die. How is this smarter then aid other countries before the Blight ravage your own country?
Also, blaming all the humans for what the Imperium did is like blaming the elves for all the Evanuris did.

After the Orlesians are losing that's when I send the elves to fight against the darkspawn and after they've been defeatedthe elves would stay in their territory and leave everyone alone.

[The Elder King]

*sighs*

What? you did say you'd ignore it?

Again, regardless of what you think of sitting back and letting innocents die, it is stupid to allow the Blight to keep going. They had no idea if it'd be stopped before it'd go on the Dales. If you think letting humans die is worth the risk of letting your own country being devastated (again, regardless of your opinion of watching innocent people die) be my guest. I think it's incredibly stupid. 

[Lulupab]

The balance of the world prior to the Veil's creation is not an inherently good thing, dunno what's hard about that to understand.  Solas never says that demons never afflicted the ancient elves or would be no problem in a Veil-less world, in fact he says the opposite, however he states that it would be acceptable in that context.

 

Not good to humans maybe, but the world existed and thrived. Probably much longer than it did with with a veil. Also by that statement you mean the current balance is good? Yes the fade entities would cause problems, but not as much as they do now.

[Steelcan]

I meant no other race was responsible for starting it.

well, until we find out that the elves made the Taint in the first place....

 

but until then I'll agree to that

[Steelcan]

Not good to humans maybe, but the world existed and thrived. Probably much longer than it with with a veil. Also by that statement you mean the current balance is good? Yes the fade entities would cause problems, but not as much as they do now.

The Evanuris thrived, the others lived under their iron thumb.

 

I'm not sure if they Veil-less world would have less problems overall, and certainly not by coming into existence if Solas is anything to go by.

[The Elder King]

After the Orlesians are losing that's when I send the elves to fight against the darkspawn and after they've been defeatedthe elves would stay in their territory and leave everyone alone.

'the Orlesians are losing' is an incredibly vague notion. How could you exactly be sure they're losing? What if the darskpawn reach the Dales before the Orlesian are 'losing'?

[Hanako Ikezawa]

We should probably get this back on topic. I don't even think Celene has been mentioned once for pages now. 

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

What? you did say you'd ignore it?
Again, regardless of what you think of sitting back and letting innocents die, it is stupid to allow the Blight to keep going. They had no idea if it'd be stopped before it'd go on the Dales. If you think letting humans die is worth the risk of letting your own country being devastated (again, regardless of your opinion of watching innocent people die) be my guest. I think it's incredibly stupid.

I meant by ignoring them by not interfering with human affairs in general, if it is the Blight then yes I would fight them. But I wouldn't trust the Orlesians anyway and if roles are reversed that the elves who asked for reinforcements from the Orlesians, do you think they would hold their end of the bargain? No they would not.

[Shechinah]

Of course I would fight against the Blight to save my prople but I wouldn't come to their aid.

 

When why should they come to yours? Why should they care about your people or country at all? Why should they care to come to your aid during a Blight or when countries attack yours?

 

Taken further, why would they not want to trade a country that is completely indifferent with a country that is willing to trade and offer aid especially since a sensible country knows better than to let the closes manifestation to evil there is gain a foothold in the world.   

 

If the Blight came over the Dales and the darkspawn began murdering the people whilst they burned the land and the armies proved too few, I would very much doubt that you would not cry foul and claim racism if Orlais decided that it was none of their concern.  

[The Elder King]

I meant by ignoring them by not interfering with human affairs in general, if it is the Blight then yes I would fight them. But I wouldn't trust the Orlesians anyway and if roles are reversed that the elves who asked for reinforcements from the Orlesians, do you think they would hold their end of the bargain? No they would not.

Possibly. They did sit back with Tevinter and left the Free Marches on their own during the Fourth Blight. It was centuries later though, and I guess people feared more the Blight during the Second, considering the First was around for nearly two centuries. The possibility of them sitting back was there though.

Orlais being possibly morons when the Dales woudl've been invaded by the Blight doesn't make the elves less morons.

[Lulupab]

well, until we find out that the elves made the Taint in the first place....

 

but until then I'll agree to that

 

That would invalidate Andrastianism though, because it would mean maker was either an Elven god or he doesn't exist. Referring to Men entering Maker's city. Because that was actually their intention, to steal maker's power. If Elves put the blight there... 

 

Also according to WoT the last bit of ancient elven magic and knowledge that survived was necessary in making grey wardens. So Elves actually contributed hugely to stopping blights. Granted it was a mix efforts of many people, even Tevinter, but still.

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

When why should they come to yours? Why should they care about your people or country at all? Why should they care to come to your aid during a Blight or when countries attack yours?
 
Taken further, why would they not want to trade a country that is completely indifferent with a country that is willing to trade and offer aid especially since a sensible country knows better than to let the closes manifestation to evil there is gain a foothold in the world.   
 
If the Blight came over the Dales and the darkspawn began murdering the people whilst they burned the land and the armies proved too few, I would very much doubt that you would not cry foul and claim racism if Orlais decided that it was none of their concern.

If roles are reversed do you think Orlais would help the elves defeat the darkspawn? Do you think they would want to be at peace with the elves? No they would not because they hate them, so why should the elves coexist with them anyway?

[Steelcan]

I meant by ignoring them by not interfering with human affairs in general, if it is the Blight then yes I would fight them. But I wouldn't trust the Orlesians anyway and if roles are reversed that the elves who asked for reinforcements from the Orlesians, do you think they would hold their end of the bargain? No they would not.

well it'd depend on the Emperor/ess Drakon was fighting in the Anderfels while the Dalish held back, so he gets points for helping the neighbors

[Shechinah]

But I wouldn't trust the Orlesians anyway and if roles are reversed that the elves who asked for reinforcements from the Orlesians, do you think they would hold their end of the bargain? No they would not.

 

Actually, we don't know if they would but we do know who actually did leave the other to the Blight when the latter needed reinforcement: the Dales.
 

[The Elder King]

That would invalidate Andrastianism though, because it would mean maker was either an Elven god or he doesn't exist. Referring to Men entering Maker's city. Because that was actually their intention, to steal maker's power. If Elves put the blight there... 

 

Also according to WoT the last bit of ancient elven magic and knowledge that survived was necessary in making grey wardens. So Elves actually contributed hugely to stopping blights. Granted it was a mix efforts of many people, even Tevinter, but still.

I wouldn't discount the possibility of the Maker being a distorted version of Fen'harel.

[Steelcan]

That would invalidate Andrastianism though, because it would mean maker was either an Elven god or he doesn't exist. Referring to Men entering Maker's city. Because that was actually their intention, to steal maker's power. If Elves put the blight there... 

 

Also according to WoT the last bit of ancient elven magic and knowledge that survived was necessary in making grey wardens. So Elves actually contributed hugely to stopping blights. Granted it was a mix efforts of many people, even Tevinter, but still.

the benefit with hands off deities like the Maker is that you can always claim it was their will that X happened, ie the Maker allowed the elves to create the Blight and whatnot.

[veeia]

We should probably get this back on topic. I don't even think Celene has been mentioned once for pages now. 

 

Sometimes I feel like there should be an "argue about elves" thread that these derails get redirected to.

 

On topic, I just did WEWH with the Celene/Briala ending. I had never done it before because I thought it was kind of gross to get them back together after what happened between them in the the Masked Empire, but now I've had enough distance from the book to try and separate it and just go with what the game says and what information my Inquisitor has. It feels weirdly unsatisfactory without much context, but hard to like with the context, lmao, so shrug.  I wonder if that decision will play into da4 at all. I'd like to see very different content for each choice, but it may just be a cameo with Orlais's status fairly standard. We'll see.

[Lulupab]

The Evanuris thrived, the others lived under their iron thumb.

 

I'm not sure if they Veil-less world would have less problems overall, and certainly not by coming into existence if Solas is anything to go by.

 

That was the ending years though.

 

I think it certainly had less problems regarding fade entities. They would find no pleasure in possessing people or things if they could just come and go anytime. The more logical explanation is most of them were like spirits right now, they simply didn't care much about the waking world and with no veil there was no curiosity as well.

[The Elder King]

If roles are reversed do you think Orlais would help the elves defeat the darkspawn? Do you think they would want to be at peace with the elves? No they would not because they hate them, so why should the elves coexist with them anyway?

Well, Orlais sit back during the Fourth Blight, leaving humans in the Free Marches to their fate. They should hate humanity, right?

I agree with Steelcan that it'd depend on who's in charge. Drakon would've aided the Dales if a Blight was happening there.

[Steelcan]

That was the ending years though.

 

I think it certainly had less problems regarding fade entities. They would find no pleasure in possessing people or things if they could just come and go anytime. The more logical explanation is most of them were like spirits right now, they simply didn't care much about the waking world and with no veil there was no curiosity as well.

we have no idea what it was like before the Evanuris, nor how long they had been in power.

 

The rest is just conjecture at this point and neither of us has enough to proof to definitely have an answer.

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

Well, Orlais sit back during the Fourth Blight, leaving humans in the Free Marches to their fate. They should hate humanity, right?
I agree with Steelcan that it'd depend on who's in charge. Drakon would've aided the Dales if a Blight was happening there.

And kill the elves too along with the darkspawn given the chance.