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[Lulupab]

Sometimes I feel like there should be an "argue about elves" thread that these derails get redirected to.

 

On topic, I just did WEWH with the Celene/Briala ending. I had never done it before because I thought it was kind of gross to get them back together after what happened between them in the the Masked Empire, but now I've had enough distance from the book to try and separate it and just go with what the game says and what information my Inquisitor has. It feels weirdly unsatisfactory without much context, but hard to like with the context, lmao, so shrug.  I wonder if that decision will play into da4 at all. I'd like to see very different content for each choice, but it may just be a cameo with Orlais's status fairly standard. We'll see.

 

Eh, its a bit gross but people have reconciled worst relationships. They say love is blind, even more so in Orlais. Because political betrayal and backstabbing is bread and butter of this nation and with the frequency that it happens it will be easier to forgive.

[Steelcan]

And kill the elves too along with the darkspawn given the chance.

please tell me why Drakon would do that when he was trying to maintain good relations with the Dales

[Steelcan]

Eh, its a bit gross but people have reconciled worst relationships. They say love is blind, even more so in Orlais. Because political betrayal and backstabbing is bread and butter of this nation and with the frequency that it happens it will be easier to forgive.

that's not a great argument.

 

"Sure you killed my parents, lied to me for years, kept me in the dark, and treated me half like a pet at times, but that happens all the time so let's hop back in bed" should raise all of the red flags

[The Elder King]

And kill the elves too along with the darkspawn given the chance.

Your preconceptions on humans in DA are showing. As Steelcan pointed out:

 

please tell me why Drakon would do that when he was trying to maintain good relations with the Dales

 

Not every human wanted or want to kill and enslave elves.

[Shechinah]

If roles are reversed do you think Orlais would help the elves defeat the darkspawn? Do you think they would want to be at peace with the elves? No they would not because they hate them, so why should the elves coexist with them anyway?

 

Not originally, they did not. We have evidence that they more or less coexisted judging by Ameridan and his dialogue.

 

What I see as having started the downward spiral that lead to the fall of the Dales was the complete isolation policy the Dales took on;

 

It lead to their stance of neutrality towards the Blight and so their indifference to the blight of Orlais. This lead to the people of Orlais not looking too fondly on them because why would they? This country stood back and watched while monsters murdered their children and burned their homes. This is the major factor behind why the people of Orlais developed hostilities towards them: the Dales left them to the Blight.

 

The Blight is the one thing that can unify everybody because it's the Blight, the ancient evil that cannot be reasoned with and will corrupt or kill anything in it's path without discrimination. 

 

  
 

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

Eh, its a bit gross but people have reconciled worst relationships. They say love is blind, even more so in Orlais. Because political betrayal and backstabbing is bread and butter of this nation and with the frequency that it happens it will be easier to forgive.

Personally I wish I have the option to throw a party for the elves to celebrate Celene's death.

[veeia]

that's not a great argument.

 

"Sure you killed my parents, lied to me for years, kept me in the dark, and treated me half like a pet at times, but that happens all the time so let's hop back in bed" should raise all of the red flags

 

Haha, yeah. And I could buy that Briala would ally with Celene if she felt it was in her best interest, or that maybe over time she'd be able to trust or forgive her, but the game reading seems to indicate that Celene did one action that betrayed Briala for political gain, which Briala forgave once realizing she did still care about her not like...a long series of actions and attitudes that led Briala to realize that no matter how much Celene did care about Briala herself, Celene could never be trusted to prioritize Briala's people and ideals. It was just weirdly framed.

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

please tell me why Drakon would do that when he was trying to maintain good relations with the Dales

By good relations meaning bring them into despair and misery. They're just words and their actions against the elves proves otherwise.

[The Elder King]

By good relations meaning bring them into despair and misery. They're just words and their actions against the elves proves otherwise.

Which actions Drakon made exactly to bring despair and misery to the elves?

[Lulupab]

that's not a great argument.

 

"Sure you killed my parents, lied to me for years, kept me in the dark, and treated me half like a pet at times, but that happens all the time so let's hop back in bed" should raise all of the red flags

 

Its not an argument, its a fact. People forgive a cruelty much easier if it frequently happens to everyone, everyday and there is no indication its going to stop anytime soon. She is literally acting like Romans when in Rome. In older ages beaten women hopped back in the bed. Cheating was not a big issue in some nations etc... I never said its a good thing, but at that time and place its the norm. Briala probably saw more cruelty growing up in an alienage.

[Shechinah]

And kill the elves too along with the darkspawn given the chance.

 

Hmmm... so the the guy who was personal friends with an elf and asked said elf to accept a position of power would totally have killed elves because of racial hatred. That sounds pretty odd given what we know about the dude.  
 

[Xilizhra]

Haha, yeah. And I could buy that Briala would ally with Celene if she felt it was in her best interest, or that maybe over time she'd be able to trust or forgive her, but the game reading seems to indicate that Celene did one action that betrayed Briala for political gain, which Briala forgave once realizing she did still care about her not like...a long series of actions and attitudes that led Briala to realize that no matter how much Celene did care about Briala herself, Celene could never be trusted to prioritize Briala's people and ideals. It was just weirdly framed.

It could just be botched writing if Patrick Weekes wasn't the one writing Wicked Eyes and Wicked Hearts, but it'd be extremely strange if he didn't, so I think this reframing may have been deliberate. Perhaps he realized that he'd gone too far in TME.

[Shechinah]

Which actions Drakon made exactly to bring despair and misery to the elves?

 

I'm starting to think all Drakon I had to do to qualify as having brought despair and misery to the elves was exist.

[Steelcan]

By good relations meaning bring them into despair and misery. They're just words and their actions against the elves proves otherwise.

Give

 

me

 

a

 

source

[The Elder King]

It could just be botched writing if Patrick Weekes wasn't the one writing Wicked Eyes and Wicked Hearts, but it'd be extremely strange if he didn't, so I think this reframing may have been deliberate. Perhaps he realized that he'd gone too far in TME.

Well, if he planned a reconciliation option in DAI he definitely went too far.

it was nice to know if this theory is true or not, regardless of the retcon of books' events.

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

Which actions Drakon made exactly to bring despair and misery to the elves?

Look at it this way: Why would elves would simply trust him after the elves have gone through as slaves? Why should they trust them? Why he would suddenly want to have relations with the elves? Unless it's his agenda to bring the elves into despair, by baiting them into thinking that he's their friend and tricks them. You cannot trust the words of a snake.

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

Give
 
me
 
a
 
source

It's just my speculation I never said it was a fact.

[Shechinah]

Look at it this way: Why would elves would simply trust him after the elves have gone through as slaves? Why should they trust them? Why he would suddenly want to have relations with the elves? Unless it's his agenda to bring the elves into despair, by baiting them into thinking that he's their friend and tricks them. You cannot trusts the words of a snake.

 

So basically Drakon I did nothing to bring despair and misery to the elves.

[Steelcan]

Its not an argument, its a fact. People forgive a cruelty much easier if it frequently happens to everyone, everyday and there is no indication its going to stop anytime soon. She is literally acting like Romans when in Rome. In older ages beaten women hopped back in the bed. Cheating was not a big issue in some nations etc... I never said its a good thing, but at that time and place its the norm. Briala probably saw more cruelty growing up in an alienage.

its one thing to cheat on someone, or even see cruelty first hand, Celene betrayed her very personally.

 

Either Briala is a hopeless roamntic who believes in true love despite all the odds, she doesn't care about all the abuse, or she is utterly spineless and without backbone to stand up to her abuser and manipulator.  Or it was bad writing, I can't say for sure.  But "when in Rome" doesn't really apply to this situation.  The Game is all about personal insults and avenging them, other Orlesian nobles wouldn't kiss and make nice (or rather they might but they would be doing so to set themselves up for a later strike) I can't think of any example that would characterize them as having such as live and let live attitude to a betrayal of this magnitude.

[Steelcan]

Look at it this way: Why would elves would simply trust him after the elves have gone through as slaves? Why should they trust them? Why he would suddenly want to have relations with the elves? Unless it's his agenda to bring the elves into despair, by baiting them into thinking that he's their friend and tricks them. You cannot trust the words of a snake.

OR he could have wanted good relations, as evidence by his sending Ameridan to the Dales to keep the peace.

 

As opposed to this baseless and utterly factless conjecture that wouldn't even fly on Ancient Aliens

[Shechinah]

It's just my speculation I never said it was a fact.

 

You present your opinions the same as when you try to present 'facts'.

 

My advice would be to add on a "in my opinion" or a "That's my opinion" at the end to differentiate.  

[The Elder King]

Look at it this way: Why would elves would simply trust him after the elves have gone through as slaves? Why should they trust them? Why he would suddenly want to have relations with the elves? Unless it's his agenda to bring the elves into despair, by baiting them into thinking that he's their friend and tricks them. You cannot trust the words of a snake.

 

 

It's just my speculation I never said it was a fact.

Why did the elves trusted Andraste and joined them against the Imperium? It might've been another human trying to trick elves by your logic.

The facts that we know of Drakon is that he never acted against the Dales, that he helped other countries against the Blight, and that he was friend with the elven leader of the Inquisition,, which he sent to the Dales to keep peaceful relationship with them. There's nothing suggesting that he had some malicious intent against elves.

You're just assuming that every single humans (or Orlesians, at least) have or had malicious intents against elves. You're free to think what you want, but other people are free too call this notion ridicolous. Though if you say he brought misery and despair to elves, that's not speculation. To say something like that you have to have facts.

[veeia]

Its not an argument, its a fact. People forgive a cruelty much easier if it frequently happens to everyone, everyday and there is no indication its going to stop anytime soon. She is literally acting like Romans when in Rome. In middle ages beaten women hopped back in the bed. Cheating was not a big issue in some nations etc... I never said its a good thing, but at that time and place its the norm. Briala probably saw more cruelty growing up in an alienage.

 

It's not really about forgiveness though, it's about her rationale.

 

In TME, Briala realizes that Celene will never make the moves that would benefit Briala or her people because while she cares about Briala, she cares more about her own power and her empire and her support of the elves is weak at best because it's tethered to that. And Celene realizes that no matter how much Briala cares about her, she is going to prioritize elves to the point of taking away Celene's chance to win the war.

 

In WEWH, Briala and Celene's reonciliation is possible because you remind them of how they care for eachother. Caring about eachother was never the problem, it was that their goals were incompatible because both were willing to let the other take significant losses in order to ensure their victory. So allying makes sense, but reconciling romantically, at least in that context, doesn't quite work for me.

 

 

It could just be botched writing if Patrick Weekes wasn't the one writing Wicked Eyes and Wicked Hearts, but it'd be extremely strange if he didn't, so I think this reframing may have been deliberate. Perhaps he realized that he'd gone too far in TME.

 

Perhaps. It is confusing though. I would be very curious to know how that quest developed over time.

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

So basically Drakon I did nothing to bring despair and misery to the elves.

If he really cared he could just leave them alone.

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

Why did the elves trusted Andraste and joined them against the Imperium? It might've been another human trying to trick elves by your logic.
The facts that we know of Drakon is that he never acted against the Dales, that he helped other countries against the Blight, and that he was friend with the elven leader of the Inquisition,, which he sent to the Dales to keep peaceful relationship with them. There's nothing suggesting that he had some malicious intent against elves.
You're just assuming that every single humans (or Orlesians, at least) have or had malicious intents against elves. You're free to think what you want, but other people are free too call this notion ridicolous. Though if you say he brought misery and despair to elves, that's not speculation. To say something like that you have to have facts.

I still wouldn't trust him.