2341 réponses à ce sujet

[Hanako Ikezawa]

 

I guess Celene and Gaspard are the Hillary Clinton  and Donald Trump of Dragon Age.

 

That is actually an eerily close comparison if you think about it. 

[IHaveReturned1999]

So if Celene doesn't see those elves as her people, you'd have no moral problem with her burning Halamshiral?

She doesn't sees them as people at all, but a stepping stone and she doesn't feel love or affection for the elves and she's far worse than that buffoon of a Duke.

[Heimdall]

She doesn't sees them as people at all, but a stepping stone and she doesn't feel love or affection for the elves and she's far worse than that buffoon of a Duke.

You think Gaspard feels love and affection for the elves? If Celene didn't care, she wouldn't have risked her support from the nobles to improve the situation of the elves and give them entrance to the university amongst other things. And it was Gaspard who used this against her to manipulate her into burning Halamshiral, thus falling into his trap. He wanted her to burn Halamshiral.

Still think he's better?

[IHaveReturned1999]

You think Gaspard feels love and affection for the elves? If Celene didn't care, she wouldn't have risked her support from the nobles to improve the situation of the elves and give them entrance to the university amongst other things. And it was Gaspard who used this against her to manipulate her into burning Halamshiral, thus falling into his trap. He wanted her to burn Halamshiral.

Still think he's better?

I never said that.

[dragonflight288]

Celene is clearly the best ruler in my opinion. Honestly, I do not understand Gaspard's motivation at all. Orlais has never been stronger. His treachery only serves to weaken the country and expose it to Tevinter and Ferelden. And I never got why it was just handwaved that he betrays his nation, but then preaches about honor. Gaspard is selfish and power-hungry and only cares for his personal glory, while Celene actually seems to care about her subjects and the legacy she leaves behind. Her methods are no different than any other noble, but she uses her power to do good.

 

 

She doesn't sees them as people at all, but a stepping stone and she doesn't feel love or affection for the elves and she's far worse than that buffoon of a Duke.

 

You think Gaspard feels love and affection for the elves? If Celene didn't care, she wouldn't have risked her support from the nobles to improve the situation of the elves and give them entrance to the university amongst other things. And it was Gaspard who used this against her to manipulate her into burning Halamshiral, thus falling into his trap. He wanted her to burn Halamshiral.

Still think he's better?

 

They both suck. 

 

Celene's word cannot be trusted as the Game and her image are the two things that matter most to her. But she does try and make things better for as many people (of the right birth, naturally) as she can with the university and being a diplomat before a conqueror. Her relationship with Briala is abusive and in many ways, quite sick, and Briala is codependent on her. 

 

Celene will have no problems letting a purge take place for the sake of the game, violent rebellion aside, the rebellion didn't matter as much to her as the rumors that could spread did. 

 

However, Gaspard is no better. He lives by a code of honor and will die by it. But his code of honor is quite exclusive and usually only applies to people born of the right parentage. Chevaliers cannot be trained as chevaliers unless they're nobles, and part of their "graduating training excersises" are concerned, they go into the alienages at night and kill elves who are out. 

 

Gaspard also says in-game that elves are rabbits who have no place at the table. 

 

He is a military commander and warrior, and skilled a skilled one, but after the events of Masked Empire where he soundly plays Celene like a fiddle, when she escapes from him he essentially begins losing on all fronts once Celene makes it to Val Royeaux, if only because he had a general start giving leaking information to Celene (that same general we find tied up naked on Celene's bed.) But the man is also throwing a wild tantrum in demanding the crown and starting the civil war, while make it clear that his policies are to return Orlais to the expansionist empire that made me hate it in Origins in the first place. 

 

Not that Celene was any less an expasionist in Origins with the whole "put aside Anora and marry Cailan" plot going on. Only the method was different. 

 

Orlais, why did we save it again? 

[IHaveReturned1999]

They both suck. 
 
Celene's word cannot be trusted as the Game and her image are the two things that matter most to her. But she does try and make things better for as many people (of the right birth, naturally) as she can with the university and being a diplomat before a conqueror. Her relationship with Briala is abusive and in many ways, quite sick, and Briala is codependent on her. 
 
Celene will have no problems letting a purge take place for the sake of the game, violent rebellion aside, the rebellion didn't matter as much to her as the rumors that could spread did. 
 
However, Gaspard is no better. He lives by a code of honor and will die by it. But his code of honor is quite exclusive and usually only applies to people born of the right parentage. Chevaliers cannot be trained as chevaliers unless they're nobles, and part of their "graduating training excersises" are concerned, they go into the alienages at night and kill elves who are out. 
 
Gaspard also says in-game that elves are rabbits who have no place at the table. 
 
He is a military commander and warrior, and skilled a skilled one, but after the events of Masked Empire where he soundly plays Celene like a fiddle, when she escapes from him he essentially begins losing on all fronts once Celene makes it to Val Royeaux, if only because he had a general start giving leaking information to Celene (that same general we find tied up naked on Celene's bed.) But the man is also throwing a wild tantrum in demanding the crown and starting the civil war, while make it clear that his policies are to return Orlais to the expansionist empire that made me hate it in Origins in the first place. 
 
Not that Celene was any less an expasionist in Origins with the whole "put aside Anora and marry Cailan" plot going on. Only the method was different. 

 
Orlais, why did we save it again?

It's not because of what she did for the game or whatever justification for the murders, it is because she's pissed off @ the elves for rebelling and that would shake her power structure as empress if she can't control the elves. That's a malignant narcissism for you and Gaspard is nothing but a buffoon who want to declare war to **** over people, and would cripple the empire by his idiotic actions (not that I care about Orlais anyway)

[Amburu]

 

They both suck. 

 

[...]

 

Orlais, why did we save it again? 

 

 

OMG I'm so done, I didn't take the time to gain more information about what was really going on when I was on my first playthrough as the game only explains so briefly, but WOW reading this thread is so painful why do we even have to pick one of them that's why I hate politics

[Xilizhra]

I find this quest much more pleasant when one completely ignores TME.

[Hellion Rex]

I find this quest much more pleasant when one completely ignores TME.

Kinda hard to ignore established canon material, but ok.

[Xilizhra]

Kinda hard to ignore established canon material, but ok.

Aside from the fact that the Inquisitor couldn't know a great deal of it anyway, DAI itself seems to play fast and loose with TME material. Basically, there's no indication that the Briala/Celene relationship, in DAI, was as toxic as it was in TME.

[Amburu]

Aside from the fact that the Inquisitor couldn't know a great deal of it anyway, DAI itself seems to play fast and loose with TME material. Basically, there's no indication that the Briala/Celene relationship, in DAI, was as toxic as it was in TME.

And i wish i knew, urghhh

[MisterJB]

Aside from the fact that the Inquisitor couldn't know a great deal of it anyway, DAI itself seems to play fast and loose with TME material. Basically, there's no indication that the Briala/Celene relationship, in DAI, was as toxic as it was in TME.

That is some serious mental gymnastics done in order for you to support a canon lesbian relationship while, at the same time, avoiding a guilty conscience for betraying your ideals regarding oppressed minority of the week AKA the elves.

 

"The Masked Empire and Dragon Age Inquisition exist in two separate universes."

[Xilizhra]

That is some serious mental gymnastics done in order for you to support a canon lesbian relationship while, at the same time, avoiding a guilty conscience for betraying your ideals regarding oppressed minority of the week AKA the elves.

 

"The Masked Empire and Dragon Age Inquisition exist in two separate universes."

Well, I also think that Briala ruling through Gaspard is dangerously unstable, so it's what I prefer politically irrespective of relationship issues.

[Walter Black]

Through all my years of playing video games, no moment has filled me with as much rage and disgust as when Briala failed to inform the Inquistor of Celene's betrayals, and subsequent option to reunite them. In Wicked Eyes and Wicked Hearts Briala was working to undermine Celene, so it makes ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE for her to not tell the player how Celene callously murdered her parents, constantly decieved her in their time together, and refused to budge from her "I Did What I had to Do" stance when confronted about it. Without this crucial piece of information, Inquisition paints Briala as being in the wrong, her legitimate grievances reduced to nothing more than the tantrum of a spurned lover.

 

What possible reasons could the writing staff, Patrick Weekes especially, have to think that characters with Briala and Celene's history getting a "happy ending" would ever be a good idea? Did they cut it because they ran over the word budget? What, they couldn't sacrifice a few lines of ambient dialogue for the necessary exposition? Was it Patrick Weekes' misguided attempt to apologise to the LGBTQ community for dedicating a book to them where the main lesbian couple ends in betrayal? Here's a thought: how about instead of horribly whitewashing Celene's acts and making Briala into a desparate idiot, why not try creating a new prominent lesbian couple in a healthy relationship? Giving in to those say that it never should have been written that way in the first place? Try showing a little artistic integrity and stick to the fact that Dragon Age is a complex and dark story where no one is pure.

 

For me personally, the single worst aspect of WEWH potentially retconning The Masked Empire is the same thing in any abusive relationship: they pretended that it never happened.

 

"No, he never hit me or our children"

 

"No, she didn't steal all of our savings to fuel her drug habit"

 

"Of course he never cheated on me with an underage girl"

 

These are not anecdotal hyperboyles, all of these situations and much worse actually happened to family members and close friends of mine. So yeah, I'll admit to being a tad biased when it comes to writers glossing over abusive relationships, whatever the reasons. Weekes and company might have thought they were promoting inclusivity when they allowed the player to reconcile Briala and Celene, but without meaning to they spit in the face of anyone who finally found the courage to walk away from toxic and controlling partners to a better future. The whole plot is deeply offensive to me, not mention lazy and uncreative.

 

Oh and Xilizhra, with all due respect I agree that LGBTQ representation still isn't what it should be, but don't you deserve better than this? Shouldn't we demand characters that promote positive gay and lesbian relationships, instead of ones that potentially send the wrong message? Because I'm pretty sure you would call out the abuse if either Celene or Briala had been male.

[IHaveReturned1999]

Through all my years of playing video games, no moment has filled me with as much rage and disgust as when Briala failed to inform the Inquistor of Celene's betrayals, and subsequent option to reunite them. In Wicked Eyes and Wicked Hearts Briala was working to undermine Celene so it ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE for her to not tell the player how Celene callously murdered her parents, constantly decieved her in their time together, and refused to budge from her "I Did What I had to Do" stance when confronted about it. Without this crucial piece of information, Inquisition paints Briala as being in the wrong, her legitimate grievances reduced to nothing more than the tantrum of a spurned lover.
 
What possible reasons could the writing staff, Patrick Weekes especially, have to think that characters with Briala and Celene's history getting a "happy ending" would ever be a good idea? Did they cut it because they ran over the word budget? What, they couldn't sacrifice a few lines of ambient dialogue for the necessary exposition? Was it Patrick Weekes' misguided attempt to apologise to the LGBTQ community for dedicating a book to them where the main lesbian couple ends in betrayal? Here's a thought: how about instead of horribly whitewashing Celene's acts and making Briala into a desparate idiot, why not try creating a new prominent lesbian couple in a healthy relationship? Giving in to those say that it never should have been written that way in the first place? Try showing a little artistic integrity and stick to the fact that Dragon Age is a complex and dark story where no one is without.
 
For me personally, the single worst aspect of WEWH potentially retconning The Masked Empire is the same thing in abusive relationships: they pretended that it never happened.
 
"No, he never hit me or our children"
 
"No, she didn't steal all of our savings to fuel her drug habit"
 
"Of course he never cheated on me with an underage girl"
 
These are not anecdotal hyperboyles, all of these situations and much worse actually happened to family members and close friends of mine. So yeah, I'll admit to being a tad biased when it comes to writers glossing over abusive relationships, whatever the reasons. Weekes and company might have thought they were promoting inclusivity when they allowed the player to reconcile Briala and Celene, but without meaning to they spit in the face of anyone who finally found the courage to walk away from toxic and controlling partners to a better future. The whole plot is deeply offensive to me, not mention lazy and uncreative.
 
Oh and Xilizhra, with all due respect I agree that LGBTQ representation still isn't what it should be, but don't you deserve better than this? Shouldn't we demand characters that promote positive gay and lesbian relationships, instead of ones that potentially send the wrong message? Because I'm pretty sure you would call out the abuse if either Celene or Briala had been male.

Oh well I killed that b*tch!!!!

[Xilizhra]

Through all my years of playing video games, no moment has filled me with as much rage and disgust as when Briala failed to inform the Inquistor of Celene's betrayals, and subsequent option to reunite them. In Wicked Eyes and Wicked Hearts Briala was working to undermine Celene so it ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE for her to not tell the player how Celene callously murdered her parents, constantly decieved her in their time together, and refused to budge from her "I Did What I had to Do" stance when confronted about it. Without this crucial piece of information, Inquisition paints Briala as being in the wrong, her legitimate grievances reduced to nothing more than the tantrum of a spurned lover.

 

What possible reasons could the writing staff, Patrick Weekes especially, have to think that characters with Briala and Celene's history getting a "happy ending" would ever be a good idea? Did they cut it because they ran over the word budget? What, they couldn't sacrifice a few lines of ambient dialogue for the necessary exposition? Was it Patrick Weekes' misguided attempt to apologise to the LGBTQ community for dedicating a book to them where the main lesbian couple ends in betrayal? Here's a thought: how about instead of horribly whitewashing Celene's acts and making Briala into a desparate idiot, why not try creating a new prominent lesbian couple in a healthy relationship? Giving in to those say that it never should have been written that way in the first place? Try showing a little artistic integrity and stick to the fact that Dragon Age is a complex and dark story where no one is without.

Well, I was one of the ones who complained to Weekes about his terrible, terrible relationship writing in TME, and may have played some small role in the creation of the reconciliation option to begin with. Artistic integrity is only as valuable as art.

 

 

For me personally, the single worst aspect of WEWH potentially retconning The Masked Empire is the same thing in abusive relationships: they pretended that it never happened.

 

"No, he never hit me or our children"

 

"No, she didn't steal all of our savings to fuel her drug habit"

 

"Of course he never cheated on me with an underage girl"

 

These are not anecdotal hyperboyles, all of these situations and much worse actually happened to family members and close friends of mine. So yeah, I'll admit to being a tad biased when it comes to writers glossing over abusive relationships, whatever the reasons. Weekes and company might have thought they were promoting inclusivity when they allowed the player to reconcile Briala and Celene, but without meaning to they spit in the face of anyone who finally found the courage to walk away from toxic and controlling partners to a better future. The whole plot is deeply offensive to me, not mention lazy and uncreative.

There's one important difference: while RL abusive relationships actually happened, fictional ones did not and can be waved out of existence much more easily. And the compressed timeline of the quest would have made it completely impossible to tell a decent story about an abusive relationship (TME wasn't even that to start with), it's probably better that they didn't.

 

 

Oh and Xilizhra, with all due respect I agree that LGBTQ representation still isn't what it should be, but don't you deserve better than this? Shouldn't we demand characters that promote positive gay and lesbian relationships, instead of ones that potentially send the wrong message? Because I'm pretty sure you would call out the abuse if either Celene or Briala had been male.

What we deserve and what we get are two different things, and the fault here is with TME, not with DAI, which does its best to jettison as much of TME's horrible representation as possible.

[Beerfish]

Kinda hard to ignore established canon material, but ok.

And this is why BioWare should only allow novels on their products that are off shoots unto themselves and do nothing to 'set up' or preview the next game.  I carried heavy biases into BioWare games from both Asunder and Mask that I had to force myself to ignore.

[Inkvisiittori]

WTH? Fans do not get to dictate what is canon and what is not. Everything that happened in TME is canon - whether you like or not. You can pretend it didn't happen all you like but that doesn't change the facts.

 

Accept the characters as they are: flawed human beings (and elves) who sometimes make terrible choices and hurt the people they love the most. I loved TME it is my favorite DA book so far. I did not like all things about it (clan Virnehn for example) but that doesn't give me or anyone the right to demand they change it just because they didn't like it. That is absolutely ridiculous. 

 

Yes, they give you the option to reunite Celene and Briala. That doesn't mean that it's suddenly going to be a happy relationship with rainbows and butterflies! It only benefits Celene - she needs Briala because of her elven spies and Eluvians. She still has hold over Briala who is vulnerable and still loves Celene even though she has done terrible things to her. Celene might even treat her better because she has something she needs... for a while.

[Barquiel]

Briala isn't some pathetic girl desperate for love and portraying the relationship as abusive or one-sided is sheer nonsense (both in TME and the game). Briala always used her influence on Celene to get what she wants. The novel makes this clear. We know she wielded a tremendous amount of influence over Celene and her decision making. With Briala being given respect and control as a noble she can do even more.

Personally, I have no qualms putting them back together for the good of Orlais and the elves. Say what you want but it's made clear by both of them that it's what they wanted. I mean, the inquisitor did not force them to get back together, only brought to light that they both still cared for each other. And Briala shows concern for Celene's life before you even show her the amulet while Celene takes a big risk by raising Briala to noble status.

[IHaveReturned1999]

Briala isn't some pathetic girl desperate for love and portraying the relationship as abusive or one-sided is sheer nonsense (both in TME and the game). Briala always used her influence on Celene to get what she wants. The novel makes this clear. We know she wielded a tremendous amount of influence over Celene and her decision making. With Briala being given respect and control as a noble she can do even more.Personally, I have no qualms putting them back together for the good of Orlais and the elves. Say what you want but it's made clear by both of them that it's what they wanted. I mean, the inquisitor did not force them to get back together, only brought to light that they both still cared for each other. And Briala show's concern for Celene's life before you even show her the amulet while Celene takes a big risk by raising Briala to noble status.

Well I personally believe that whole relationship of how the writers set up was sick and twisted. How can you forgive a person who kills your people, and your parents and still want to be with her? Either Briala got some severe case of Stockholm Syndrome or she's really that stupid??? And She's nothing but a straight up fetish to Celene anyways and their relationship is abusive from the beginning.

[Hellion Rex]

I think the whole point of the relationship was to show how unhealthy and how one sided it is, and how Celene had done Briala wrong, terribly so. I think they do love each other sincerely, but Celene made terrible choices. I thought Briala leaving her was a good way for TME to show it.

What really pissed me off was seeing their "reconciliation" in DAI. I don't care how much you love someone. That woman killed your parents, lied to you about it for over a decade, and yet you still reconcile? That kind of backwards writing made my blood boil. What the hell were they thinking?

I actually don't like either of the characters, but Briala deserved better than that.

[Xilizhra]

I think the whole point of the relationship was to show how unhealthy and how one sided it is, and how Celene had done Briala wrong, terribly so. I think they do love each other sincerely, but Celene made terrible choices. I thought Briala leaving her was a good way for TME to show it.

What really pissed me off was seeing their "reconciliation" in DAI. I don't care how much you love someone. That woman killed your parents, lied to you about it for over a decade, and yet you still reconcile? That kind of backwards writing made my blood boil. What the hell were they thinking?

I actually don't like either of the characters, but Briala deserved better than that.

That TME was garbage and that DAI could be better?

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Well, I was one of the ones who complained to Weekes about his terrible, terrible relationship writing in TME, and may have played some small role in the creation of the reconciliation option to begin with. Artistic integrity is only as valuable as art.

 

No offense, but I'd be very surprised if that was the case. The options we got in Wicked Eyes and Wicked Hearts are basically exactly what I would have expected us to get from reading the end of TME. 

[IHaveReturned1999]

Personally I wish I have the option to throw a party for the elves to celebrate Celene's death.

Elves would be clubbin' at this dancing @ her grave!! Celebrate good times come on everybody!!

[thesuperdarkone2]

Elves would be clubbin' at this dancing @ her grave!! Celebrate good times come on everybody!!

You are very bad at hiding, n7