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[The Devlish Redhead]

I mean the place is supposed to be secure...... Not by much obviously...

How the hell did Cerberus manage to invade as much as they did, and no one noticed all the big hardware?

Come to think of it between ME2 and 3 how the hell did they build such a huge fleet in what seems like so little time?

[Vazgen]

Their fleet is never shown. They get a lot of troops from refugee camps like Horizon and abductions like Eden Prime and Benning. 

A note, found during Citadel coup mission near Talon pistol:

From: Sgt. Uriah Shaw

To: Captain Ianna Mao

I brought up #177504 from Evidence so you can see for yourself. We caught the slag who was assembling it in one of Tower 110's bathrooms. He got it past the detectors in pieces--metal barrel in a hollowed-out omni-tool, eezo in one of those Cision toothbrushes. The rest was plastic or ceramic. No gang ink on him, he was in a sport coat like most of the male employees of Tower 110. His ID was manufactured--he's got a record that dates back to when his medcard was issued, and before that, nothing.

This is way beyond coincidence. This is a pro assassin, and he's not alone. We've got people smuggling Talons all over the station. Patrol knows it, Organized Crime knows it. But when you try to talk to the Major, you hit a steel wall. Where's Internal Affairs when you need them? Why can't we get them to open an investigation on Customs? You would NOT get away with this blind-eye business if this were L.A. or Hong Kong.

The Major says he's not going to screw over good police because of one nut with a pistol. But it isn't just one. Ask the Executor this--if this is the stuff we're catching, what's slipping by?

--Shaw

Combine this with Udina's highest level clearance.

Though I agree, they got too powerful in a very short time.

[Mordokai]

You say, it can't be done.

 

TIM goes like:

 

[The Devlish Redhead]

TIM was indoctrinated ......... Way back before ME 2 I think..

[Steelcan]

TIM was indoctrinated ......... Way back before ME 2 I think..

He was exposed to a reaper artifact briefly, indoctrination takes time to take hold otherwise the victim is turned into a drooling moron.

 

 

Its more likely he became indoctrinated when he put a Reaper up in his base

[ZipZap2000]

What does it really matter how anyway? I think the overall point is that they did it and now some of your friends are dead and the bad guys got away.

 

As far as when TIM was indoctrinated I role play the entire ME2 game as him trying to deliver Shepard to the collectors and Miranda as an unquestioning tool just goes ith it. TIM knew the collectors were after Shepard and didn't warn him (Opening scene), justified as a calculated risk to deliver Shepards body to Cerberus, Horizon, Collector trap, derelict Reaper and so on. It's all him thinking he's acting out his own desires but subconsciously he's trying to 'accidentally' screw it up.

[Larry-3]

I hear that he enlisted the help of the human councilor.

[von uber]

It's funny how different people ask the same questions over and over again... it's almost like there are gaping holes and inconsistencies in the plot of the trilogy.

Almost like they were making it up as they went along...

[The Devlish Redhead]

What does it really matter how anyway? I think the overall point is that they did it and now some of your friends are dead and the bad guys got away.

 

As far as when TIM was indoctrinated I role play the entire ME2 game as him trying to deliver Shepard to the collectors and Miranda as an unquestioning tool just goes ith it. TIM knew the collectors were after Shepard and didn't warn him (Opening scene), justified as a calculated risk to deliver Shepards body to Cerberus, Horizon, Collector trap, derelict Reaper and so on. It's all him thinking he's acting out his own desires but subconsciously he's trying to 'accidentally' screw it up.

 

 

That was always my view, that subconsciously he was following some kind of hidden suggestion.

[Excella Gionne]

I heard that 3 people took down the coup. Makes sense....

[Kabooooom]

What does it really matter how anyway? I think the overall point is that they did it and now some of your friends are dead and the bad guys got away.

As far as when TIM was indoctrinated I role play the entire ME2 game as him trying to deliver Shepard to the collectors and Miranda as an unquestioning tool just goes ith it. TIM knew the collectors were after Shepard and didn't warn him (Opening scene), justified as a calculated risk to deliver Shepards body to Cerberus, Horizon, Collector trap, derelict Reaper and so on. It's all him thinking he's acting out his own desires but subconsciously he's trying to 'accidentally' screw it up.

I do the same. You don't even have to role play it - because it makes perfect sense. 99% of people seem to forget that Indoctrination is NOT an all-or-nothing event. There are gradations of it. The Reapers actually want the slave to be mostly autonomous, otherwise they become worthless. It does not, however, make them any less of a pawn. This is why Saren, despite being an indoctrinated tool, was allowed to construct an entire research facility devoted to studying the effects of indoctrination.

So yes, TIM was indoctrinated all along. He merely sped up the process when he decided (because he was indoctrinated) to use a Reaper heart or brain as an office doorstop, and then when he deliberately injected (because he was indoctrinated) Reaper nanites into himself.

[ImaginaryMatter]

I do the same. You don't even have to role play it - because it makes perfect sense. 99% of people seem to forget that Indoctrination is NOT an all-or-nothing event. There are gradations of it. The Reapers actually want the slave to be mostly autonomous, otherwise they become worthless. It does not, however, make them any less of a pawn. This is why Saren, despite being an indoctrinated tool, was allowed to construct an entire research facility devoted to studying the effects of indoctrination.

So yes, TIM was indoctrinated all along. He merely sped up the process when he decided (because he was indoctrinated) to use a Reaper heart or brain as an office doorstop, and then when he deliberately injected (because he was indoctrinated) Reaper nanites into himself.

 

When people generally complain about TIM's Indoctrination it's because it's used as a halfass hand wave to explain away all the nonsense he does through out the trilogy. It just makes him a mook captain, devoid of any characterization, who supplies a stream of dudes to stand between Shepard and whatever objective for half the game. There's also the problem that the whole bit with him being previously Indoctrinated is never explained in the actual game, so it looks like he decided to install Reapers remains in his base, because plot.

[SilJeff]

It's funny how different people ask the same questions over and over again... it's almost like there are gaping holes and inconsistencies in the plot of the trilogy.

Almost like they were making it up as they went along...

Curse you Mass Effect 1 writers for not planning!!

I think considering their lack of planning, it didn't turn out nearly as bad as it could have

[StarcloudSWG]

When people generally complain about TIM's Indoctrination it's because it's used as a halfass hand wave to explain away all the nonsense he does through out the trilogy. It just makes him a mook captain, devoid of any characterization, who supplies a stream of dudes to stand between Shepard and whatever objective for half the game. There's also the problem that the whole bit with him being previously Indoctrinated is never explained in the actual game, so it looks like he decided to install Reapers remains in his base, because plot.

 

The Husk eyes were a bit of a giveaway in ME 2. Yes, those are the same eyes that Husks have.

[ImaginaryMatter]

The Husk eyes were a bit of a giveaway in ME 2. Yes, those are the same eyes that Husks have.

 

Because all blue cybernetic eyes look exactly the same.

 

Also, people's eyes don't changed colors because they are Indoctrinated, those are because of implants.

 

Furthermore, husks are reanimated corpses augmented with cybernetics while Indoctrination is a process that acts on living organisms' limbic system.

[Larry-3]

When Cerberus attacked the Citadel I really thought that my war assets would go down. Thank you writers for overlooking that fact that Cerberus may have killed some of my forces in the battle. I needed the war assets. Reapers are not going to kill themselves.

[SporkFu]

When Cerberus attacked the Citadel I really thought that my war assets would go down. Thank you writers for overlooking that fact that Cerberus may have killed some of my forces in the battle. I needed the war assets. Reapers are not going to kill themselves.

If you don't pick up some war assets before the coup, you'll lose them. I dunno them all, but one example I can think of is Barla Von's shadow broker team.

 

Oh, also Grissom Academy. 

[StarcloudSWG]

The Illusive Man's eyes are the result of him being exposed to a Reaper artifact. He escaped full Husk conversion, but he obviously did not escape being implanted with Reaper tech.

 

Reaper tech indoctrinates. It's shown over and over again. The Reapers had a direct line into the Illusive Man's brain.

[dreamgazer]

It's funny how different people ask the same questions over and over again... it's almost like there are gaping holes and inconsistencies in the plot of the trilogy.

 

Well, yeah.  You can't even get out of ME1 without running into gaping holes and inconsistencies in the lore (let alone contrived space magic).

[Iakus]

Resources.

 

It's always a matter of resources

 

 

[Larry-3]

If you don't pick up some war assets before the coup, you'll lose them. I dunno them all, but one example I can think of is Barla Von's shadow broker team.

 

Oh, also Grissom Academy. 

 

I always get them all. I just meant the ones I had already gotten.

[Kabooooom]

Because all blue cybernetic eyes look exactly the same.

Also, people's eyes don't changed colors because they are Indoctrinated, those are because of implants.

Furthermore, husks are reanimated corpses augmented with cybernetics while Indoctrination is a process that acts on living organisms' limbic system.

Yes, but TIM received the eyes after being exposed to the Reaper artifact, did he not? Likely, then, his eyes are evidence of his prior exposure (and possible implantation) of Reaper tech, in addition to foreshadowing what would become his obvious indoctrination by the start of ME3 (literally, by the Mars mission it is evident that he is indoctrinated. Shep can even call him out on it).

[ImaginaryMatter]

Yes, but TIM received the eyes after being exposed to the Reaper artifact, did he not? Likely, then, his eyes are evidence of his prior exposure (and possible implantation) of Reaper tech, in addition to foreshadowing what would become his obvious indoctrination by the start of ME3 (literally, by the Mars mission it is evident that he is indoctrinated. Shep can even call him out on it).

 

I've never read the comics. For the most part I'm arguing from a game only perspective. The only thing I know from his time as Jack Harper was that he was a mercenary, ran into Saren at some point, there was a chick named Eva Core, got exposed to a Reaper artifact, and apparently got his glowing eyes. Even then as far as forshadowing goes I don't think they mean anything; this is a sci-fi setting where people presumably have ocular implants, even Shepard can get them at some point. Also, the people we have met up to that time who were Indoctrinated weren't all sporting the glowing eyes.

[Sonnington]

It shows that as soon as TIM sees Shepard is dead, in the opening scene of ME2, he has the mechanical eyes. So lets say he is indoctrinated. He's indoctrinated for over 2 years bringing Shepard back to life and the Reapers had no better ideas to do with him than to allow him to bring Shepard back to life?

 

I love it how these characters that are clearly indoctrinated hear Shepard say 2 or 3 sentences that boil down to, "What are you stupid? Stop being indoctrinated! Kill yourself!" And that's all it takes for them to finally realize they're being evil and stupid. That indoctrination is a pretty weak thing when push comes to shove.

[ImaginaryMatter]

It shows that as soon as TIM sees Shepard is dead, in the opening scene of ME2, he has the mechanical eyes. So lets say he is indoctrinated. He's indoctrinated for over 2 years bringing Shepard back to life and the Reapers had no better ideas to do with him than to allow him to bring Shepard back to life?

 

I love it how these characters that are clearly indoctrinated hear Shepard say 2 or 3 sentences that boil down to, "What are you stupid? Stop being indoctrinated! Kill yourself!" And that's all it takes for them to finally realize they're being evil and stupid. That indoctrination is a pretty weak thing when push comes to shove.

 

It's an interesting story element but one that has to be handled very carefully. The problem is the writers got too complacent with using it as a get-out-of-characterization free card.