80 réponses à ce sujet

[Kabooooom]

It shows that as soon as TIM sees Shepard is dead, in the opening scene of ME2, he has the mechanical eyes. So lets say he is indoctrinated. He's indoctrinated for over 2 years bringing Shepard back to life and the Reapers had no better ideas to do with him than to allow him to bring Shepard back to life?.

Like I said earlier, indoctrination is not an all-or-nothing event. There are gradations of it. The more willpower a slave has, the more useful they are - and indeed, the truly insidious power of weaker indoctrination is by having the indoctrinated individual carry out a plan that they THINK is their own, and do it fully willing, while in reality it works towards the Reaper's goals.

Initially, all the Reapers wanted was Shep's body for study after he died. Just as Saren was allowed to construct a facility to study the effects of indoctrination, so too was TIM allowed to carry out the Lazarus Project and revive Shepard. The Reapers obviously would not want Shep to once again be gallivanting across the galaxy kicking their ass and laying alien babes, but the alternative - forcing TIM not to do it - would be counterproductive to the insidious nature of their indoctrination. As pointed out in ME1 like forty times, the more the Reapers exert their influence, the less useful the slave becomes.

And so, TIM revived Shepard and attempted to destroy the Collectors because to him, he really was looking out for humanity's best interest. What followed in ME2, and continued into ME3, were a series of events that not so coincidentally were directly beneficial for the Reapers.

So yeah, his indoctrination isn't even really debatable. It's a thoroughly obvious plot point. In ME2, the implications are much more subtle, but clear in retrospect and especially with evidence from other out-game canon sources. In ME3, they literally beat you over the head with it, to paraphrase: "you're clearly indoctrinated (on Mars)", "Cerberus is working with the Reapers" (like ten different characters say this throughout the story), "was Udina indoctrinated, like Cerberus?" (the Coup), "I thought Cerberus was working with the Reapers?" (Horizon).

And yet, people still completely and totally miss this, and think TIM wasn't indoctrinated until he implanted himself with Reaper tech near the end of ME3. Lol, no. Like Saren before him, that was just the coup de grace. TIM was totally fucked long before that.

[Vazgen]

Like I said earlier, indoctrination is not an all-or-nothing event. There are gradations of it. The more willpower a slave has, the more useful they are - and indeed, the truly insidious power of weaker indoctrination is by having the indoctrinated individual carry out a plan that they THINK is their own, and do it fully willing, while in reality it works towards the Reaper's goals.

Initially, all the Reapers wanted was Shep's body for study after he died. Just as Saren was allowed to construct a facility to study the effects of indoctrination, so too was TIM allowed to carry out the Lazarus Project and revive Shepard. The Reapers obviously would not want Shep to once again be gallivanting across the galaxy kicking their ass and laying alien babes, but the alternative - forcing TIM not to do it - would be counterproductive to the insidious nature of their indoctrination. As pointed out in ME1 like forty times, the more the Reapers exert their influence, the less useful the slave becomes.

And so, TIM revived Shepard and attempted to destroy the Collectors because to him, he really was looking out for humanity's best interest. What followed in ME2, and continued into ME3, were a series of events that not so coincidentally were directly beneficial for the Reapers.

So yeah, his indoctrination isn't even really debatable. It's a thoroughly obvious plot point.

I agree. Following along these lines, ME2 actually has nothing to do with stopping the Reapers. We waste time trying to destroy the remnants of the Collectors, who have only one ship, destroy an entire Batarian system to delay the invasion by only 6 months, work with a terrorist organization ruining Shepard's reputation and making Council even more weary to take steps against the Reapers based solely on Shepard's words, act as a Spectre in the Terminus systems creating more tension between the Terminus and the Council...

[Sonnington]

Ok, as long as you're cool with the idea that the Reapers rebuilt Shepard.

[Kabooooom]

I agree. Following along these lines, ME2 actually has nothing to do with stopping the Reapers. We waste time trying to destroy the remnants of the Collectors, who have only one ship, destroy an entire Batarian system to delay the invasion by only 6 months, work with a terrorist organization ruining Shepard's reputation and making Council even more weary to take steps against the Reapers based solely on Shepard's words, act as a Spectre in the Terminus systems creating more tension between the Terminus and the Council...

Yep, although to the Reaper's credit, they probably didn't think that Shep would succeed both in destroying the Collector base and by destroying the Alpha Relay. Harby, at least, seemed genuinely annoyed by this. But, along the way, TIM deliberately chooses to sacrifice Horizon in order to gain more information, deliberately lets Shep walk right into a Reaper trap, and deliberately sends Shep into the Derelict Reaper, knowing he will be exposed to potential indoctrination, instead of throwing more expendable troops at it.

TIM explains his obviously super fucked up and suspicious actions as "doing whatever is necessary to succeed". It's a means to an end, he says. Uh huh. And to him, he no doubt genuinely believes that. But to an outside observer, like Shepard or the player, it is clear how most of his actions - when viewed from the perspective of indoctrination - suddenly make far more sense.

[Kabooooom]

More on topic, as was pointed out on page 1 - Cerberus had been sneaking troops and weapons into the Citadel for months. Combine that with their Alliance with Udina (which happens some time prior to the start of ME3, and prior to his placing Bailey in his new position), they easily gained access to the Citadel. It is heavily, heavily implied by that datapad snippet from CSEC HQ that Udina effectively prevented any investigation into the smuggling of weapons and individuals past customs. Why? Because the order would have to come from either the C-SEC Executor, or someone above. And the Executor sure as hell wouldn't turn a blind eye to that. It's also stated in-game that Cerberus snuck agents in through the refugee camp, posing as refugees.

So, when the Coup happened, Udina compromised Citadel defenses from within, including preventing the closing of the arms. Cerberus sleeper agents who were already on the Citadel and fully armed leapt into action to further attack from within, while their fleet probably arrived and supplied reinforcements.

Side note: ME3 is littered with little clues like that strewn throughout the story in the form of datapads. They seem only tangentially related to the story, at best, for many players on first glance. Admittedly, I didn't make the connections on a lot of them until my second or third play through. This may not be a good thing, in the sense that it isn't awesome story telling - but it does encourage the player to connect the dots.

[Seboist]

I mean the place is supposed to be secure...... Not by much obviously...

How the hell did Cerberus manage to invade as much as they did, and no one noticed all the big hardware?

Come to think of it between ME2 and 3 how the hell did they build such a huge fleet in what seems like so little time?

 

Long story short, Cerberus is "plot clay" that's molded into whatever the writer(s) want it to be at any given time. Besides, the "coup" mission serves no purpose other than to give the Udina haters the opportunity to smoke him.

[ImaginaryMatter]

Like I said earlier, indoctrination is not an all-or-nothing event. There are gradations of it. The more willpower a slave has, the more useful they are - and indeed, the truly insidious power of weaker indoctrination is by having the indoctrinated individual carry out a plan that they THINK is their own, and do it fully willing, while in reality it works towards the Reaper's goals.

Initially, all the Reapers wanted was Shep's body for study after he died. Just as Saren was allowed to construct a facility to study the effects of indoctrination, so too was TIM allowed to carry out the Lazarus Project and revive Shepard. The Reapers obviously would not want Shep to once again be gallivanting across the galaxy kicking their ass and laying alien babes, but the alternative - forcing TIM not to do it - would be counterproductive to the insidious nature of their indoctrination. As pointed out in ME1 like forty times, the more the Reapers exert their influence, the less useful the slave becomes.

And so, TIM revived Shepard and attempted to destroy the Collectors because to him, he really was looking out for humanity's best interest. What followed in ME2, and continued into ME3, were a series of events that not so coincidentally were directly beneficial for the Reapers.

So yeah, his indoctrination isn't even really debatable. It's a thoroughly obvious plot point. In ME2, the implications are much more subtle, but clear in retrospect and especially with evidence from other out-game canon sources. In ME3, they literally beat you over the head with it, to paraphrase: "you're clearly indoctrinated (on Mars)", "Cerberus is working with the Reapers" (like ten different characters say this throughout the story), "was Udina indoctrinated, like Cerberus?" (the Coup), "I thought Cerberus was working with the Reapers?" (Horizon).

And yet, people still completely and totally miss this, and think TIM wasn't indoctrinated until he implanted himself with Reaper tech near the end of ME3. Lol, no. Like Saren before him, that was just the coup de grace. TIM was totally fucked long before that.

 

This is bordering on the kind of justifications we see for something like the Indoctrination Theory. The story does not do enough to establish this kind of subtlety in someone undergoing Indoctrination (and what we do get seems to change slightly between each game). I'm not saying this is invalid but digging this deep into whether or not someone is Indoctrinated is when things start becoming arbitrary. So TIM is Indoctrinated enough to not outright assist the Reapers but he's Indoctrinated enough to do certain action that can be seen as benefactory(?!?). TIM doesn't even seem to know much about the Reapers in ME2, much less have this elaborate back story with them. It's troubling that the only things to suggest other wise and that he is indeed Indoctrinated comes from material only published after ME2 and are not included in that game.

[Kabooooom]

This is bordering on the kind of justifications we see for something like the Indoctrination Theory. The story does not do enough to establish this kind of subtlety in someone undergoing Indoctrination (and what we do get seems to change slightly between each game). I'm not saying this is invalid but digging this deep into whether or not someone is Indoctrinated is when things start becoming arbitrary. So TIM is Indoctrinated enough to not outright assist the Reapers but he's Indoctrinated enough to do certain action that can be seen as benefactory(?!?). TIM doesn't even seem to know much about the Reapers in ME2, much less have this elaborate back story with them. It's troubling that the only things to suggest other wise and that he is indeed Indoctrinated comes from material only published after ME2 and are not included in that game.

Doesn't really matter though, as it is all still canon. Take the Grayson storyline, for example - it is central to how TIM develops the technology to mass develop his shock troops that he uses in ME3. It is also demonstrated to be canon in the Cerberus HQ videos. So, as much as I hate some of the extended media (like Foundation - ugh), you can't just cherry pick which you want to be canon and which you don't (or in your case just ignore it all). It's still a part of the story.

So, its nothing like IT in the sense that it is actually grounded in the story itself - TIM was exposed to Reaper tech long before ME1 even starts, his actions are extremely suspect pretty much for the entire history of Cerberus but especially during ME2, ME3 tells you he is indoctrinated within the first 20 minutes of the story starting (and repeatedly throughout), and Javik tells you that in his cycle an indoctrinated splinter group was advocating control of the Reapers as well. I mean, how much more obvious could it possibly be?

If I may expand upon this:

So TIM is Indoctrinated enough to not outright assist the Reapers but he's Indoctrinated enough to do certain action that can be seen as benefactory(?!?)

Yes, exactly how Saren was before him, because as ME1 explains - this is how indoctrination works. It isn't an all-or-nothing event. Saren's indoctrination began 20 years before the start of ME1 and he wasn't a complete slave until near the end. He was allowed to have much autonomy, including some actions that oppose the Reapers - such as constructing the Virmire research facility - in order to maintain his will, thus making him useful servant instead of a mindless one.

[General TSAR]

Reasons.

.........

Deep cover operatives attacked and took control of the Citadel's defense matrix and used it to destroy any and all warships present. This allowed Cerberus transports to unload reinforcements and heavy equipment. 

[von uber]

This is all fine IF you have read the comics etc.
I certainly haven't, and it is likely the vast majority of people who play the games haven't either.
Therefore the games have to stand on what is shown within them, you can't expect people to have to buy other stuff written after release to make sense of them (especially if it is not available in their country). That's just shitty story writing.

[Kabooooom]

This is all fine IF you have read the comics etc.
I certainly haven't, and it is likely the vast majority of people who play the games haven't either.
Therefore the games have to stand on what is shown within them, you can't expect people to have to buy other stuff written after release to make sense of them (especially if it is not available in their country). That's just shitty story writing.

It is, or rather - deliberate writing that encourages consumerism. However, the story doesn't make sense without the extra-game sources. And, like I pointed out above, the entire plot of ME3 hinges on the Grayson plot of the books. Without it, it looks like Cerberus comes out of nowhere. Your complaint would be a strong argument if mass effect 3 didn't directly cite the plot and characters of the books within the game itself.

So now, we are left with a game that depends upon and references events that happen outside of the game story. You literally cannot analyze the plot without taking into account those events, because you are looking at an incomplete picture.

Look, I don't like the whole forcing people to read other media in order to tell a story thing any more than you do. But that's what Bioware did, and it is what it is.

The first time I played ME3, I found myself wondering things like "who the f*ck is Grayson?" Because I hadn't read the books. Then I did, and I gained a greater appreciation for the story. Yes, that doesn't make it right. But, they wanted to tell a story that was not simply confined to the Shepard story arc. The galaxy doesn't revolve around Shepard. I can appreciate that, in retrospect. But yes, it could have been handled better. It doesn't necessarily set a bad precedent though...it just sort of follows the bad precedent that other stories (like Halo) set by making their plots entirely revolve around non-game media.

[The Devlish Redhead]

When Cerberus attacked the Citadel I really thought that my war assets would go down. Thank you writers for overlooking that fact that Cerberus may have killed some of my forces in the battle. I needed the war assets. Reapers are not going to kill themselves.

 

HEY..............

 

Reapers might kill themselves if we played Miley Cyrus records to them...... on endless loop
 

[ImaginaryMatter]

Doesn't really matter though, as it is all still canon. Take the Grayson storyline, for example - it is central to how TIM develops the technology to mass develop his shock troops that he uses in ME3. It is also demonstrated to be canon in the Cerberus HQ videos. So, as much as I hate some of the extended media (like Foundation - ugh), you can't just cherry pick which you want to be canon and which you don't (or in your case just ignore it all). It's still a part of the story.

So, its nothing like IT in the sense that it is actually grounded in the story itself - TIM was exposed to Reaper tech long before ME1 even starts, his actions are extremely suspect pretty much for the entire history of Cerberus but especially during ME2, ME3 tells you he is indoctrinated within the first 20 minutes of the story starting (and repeatedly throughout), and Javik tells you that in his cycle an indoctrinated splinter group was advocating control of the Reapers as well. I mean, how much more obvious could it possibly be?

If I may expand upon this:


Yes, exactly how Saren was before him, because as ME1 explains - this is how indoctrination works. It isn't an all-or-nothing event. Saren's indoctrination began 20 years before the start of ME1 and he wasn't a complete slave until near the end. He was allowed to have much autonomy, including some actions that oppose the Reapers - such as constructing the Virmire research facility - in order to maintain his will, thus making him useful servant instead of a mindless one.

 

I'm not trying to ignore this stuff, but I've never read the comics. Regardless though, this is all terrible justification; as I said earlier, Indoctrination, especially it's involvement with Cerberus, is used as a lazy excuse to not bother with characterization or proper motivation. Just because Indoctrination has stages doesn't mean it's an excuse for TIM's or Cerberus's behavior of not working for the Reapers but sort of working for them in certain instances when it's convenient for the plot (even then all these hypotheticals for where TIM is being manipulated in ME2 are mostly arbitrary; also, reading the summaries for ME: Evolution and some forum discussion it says TIM's exposure to the monolith was brief and whether or not he was actually Indoctrinated there is another hypothetical). I guess the real thing is, even if this is all somehow internally consistent due to the liberal usage of the ever changing Indoctrination, this makes for a very unsatisfying narrative.

[Dubozz]

How the hell did Cerberus invade the Citadel?

Through the plothole.

[Vazgen]

reading the summaries for ME: Evolution and some forum discussion it says TIM's exposure to the monolith was brief and whether or not he was actually Indoctrinated there is another hypothetical

Spoiler

Dude started hearing voices and found monolith all the way through the galaxy on Illium. He also understood Reaper markings in Palaven temple

I think, as much as Bioware stated about each game being possible to play without importing saves etc., they need to be played as a trilogy, and include novels/comics/animated movie/mobile game if possible.

I'm currently playing a non-imported Shepard in ME3. There are parts that are outright weird and confusing if you're a first-time player. It is all one big story and that's how they made the game. Not saying it's good or bad, but it's what it is

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

He was exposed to a reaper artifact briefly, indoctrination takes time to take hold otherwise the victim is turned into a drooling moron.

 

 

Its more likely he became indoctrinated when he put a Reaper up in his base

 

Ah yes, another time the reapers threw a raver after a big reaping and left a GoPro camera with the party vids. For a machine race that is so careful not to be discovered, they sure do a poor job of cleaning up after their parties.

 

"Hey Harby, I forgot that camera."

 

"No worries, Sovvy will get it."

 

"Always leaving everything to ol' Sovvy to clean up, eh?"

[Kabooooom]

I'm not trying to ignore this stuff, but I've never read the comics. Regardless though, this is all terrible justification; as I said earlier, Indoctrination, especially it's involvement with Cerberus, is used as a lazy excuse to not bother with characterization or proper motivation. Just because Indoctrination has stages doesn't mean it's an excuse for TIM's or Cerberus's behavior of not working for the Reapers but sort of working for them in certain instances when it's convenient for the plot (even then all these hypotheticals for where TIM is being manipulated in ME2 are mostly arbitrary; also, reading the summaries for ME: Evolution and some forum discussion it says TIM's exposure to the monolith was brief and whether or not he was actually Indoctrinated there is another hypothetical). I guess the real thing is, even if this is all somehow internally consistent due to the liberal usage of the ever changing Indoctrination, this makes for a very unsatisfying narrative.

The evidence is more in favor of his indoctrination than against it, by a long shot. And, while that might present an unsatisfying narrative to you, I submit for consideration that the alternative - Cerberus working against themselves with nonsensical or vague motivation - is far less satisfying.

[Der Ivan91]

The Cerberus incursion in the citadel was an attack they planned for quite some time. If you take your time during the mission where you save the council there are numerous datapads with infos about how it was done:

 

1) They infiltrated the citadel through various means and also had covert operatives in rather high positions who kept the Cerberus soldiers hidden.

 

2) Every once in a while C-sec stumbled upon one of the smuggled weapons. These weapons were smuggled by concealing its components as something else and then assembling the parts in the Citadel when the time came. The Cerberus agents operating rather high up the chain of command in C-sec prevented these discoveries from exposing the whole operation.

 

3) When all started, the infiltrators took down the security systems and then stealth ships similar to the normandy brought the main force onto the citadel. The Normandy SR-2 was built by Cerberus so it is rather unlikely for Cerberus to NOT have additional ships with similar stealth capabilities. Also, they might have as well used freighters as troop transports. 

[Valmar]

I agree. Following along these lines, ME2 actually has nothing to do with stopping the Reapers. We waste time trying to destroy the remnants of the Collectors, who have only one ship, destroy an entire Batarian system to delay the invasion by only 6 months, work with a terrorist organization ruining Shepard's reputation and making Council even more weary to take steps against the Reapers based solely on Shepard's words, act as a Spectre in the Terminus systems creating more tension between the Terminus and the Council...

 

To be fair, though, we don't actually know the... shall way say, insignificance of the collector threat until the ending. Pretty much up until that point we were under the assumption that the collector HOMEWORLD was beyond the omega relay. All we really knew for certain as that this race (collectors) were highly advanced, working with/for the reapers, had a keen interest in humans and human colonies and they come from the omega 4 relay. Was anyone really expecting the collector homeworld to turn out to be just a giant collector ship?

 

Though, in hindsight, one does have to wonder how exactly Shepard planned to stop them if they actually DID have a homeworld on the other side. Say, a homeworld that was essentially a massive industrial manufacturing hub preparing for war due to the incoming reaper invasion. How was one squad and one ship suppose to stop an entire planet? Its a good thing the collectors were such a relatively minor opposition consisting of just one giant ship that you could conveniently blow up with a single portable explosive. It's reasons like this, imo, that its best not to think too heavily on fictional stories.

 

All that aside however isn't it really the reaper connection that draws Shepard into the whole thing in the first place? Sure, saving human colonies plays a role, to be sure, but the 'selling point' that got Shepard to agree to work with Cerberus was that they (collectors) were connected with the reapers. If Shep wants to hinder the reapers what else could he/she have done at that point? It's not like anyone was really listening or taking the threat seriously. Action is better than inaction and Shep did, in the very least, throw a wrench in the reapers plans - even if its just an ant gnawing at the heels of a giant.

 

 

Like I said earlier, indoctrination is not an all-or-nothing event. There are gradations of it. The more willpower a slave has, the more useful they are - and indeed, the truly insidious power of weaker indoctrination is by having the indoctrinated individual carry out a plan that they THINK is their own, and do it fully willing, while in reality it works towards the Reaper's goals.

Initially, all the Reapers wanted was Shep's body for study after he died. Just as Saren was allowed to construct a facility to study the effects of indoctrination, so too was TIM allowed to carry out the Lazarus Project and revive Shepard. The Reapers obviously would not want Shep to once again be gallivanting across the galaxy kicking their ass and laying alien babes, but the alternative - forcing TIM not to do it - would be counterproductive to the insidious nature of their indoctrination. As pointed out in ME1 like forty times, the more the Reapers exert their influence, the less useful the slave becomes.

And so, TIM revived Shepard and attempted to destroy the Collectors because to him, he really was looking out for humanity's best interest. What followed in ME2, and continued into ME3, were a series of events that not so coincidentally were directly beneficial for the Reapers.

So yeah, his indoctrination isn't even really debatable. It's a thoroughly obvious plot point. In ME2, the implications are much more subtle, but clear in retrospect and especially with evidence from other out-game canon sources. In ME3, they literally beat you over the head with it, to paraphrase: "you're clearly indoctrinated (on Mars)", "Cerberus is working with the Reapers" (like ten different characters say this throughout the story), "was Udina indoctrinated, like Cerberus?" (the Coup), "I thought Cerberus was working with the Reapers?" (Horizon).

And yet, people still completely and totally miss this, and think TIM wasn't indoctrinated until he implanted himself with Reaper tech near the end of ME3. Lol, no. Like Saren before him, that was just the coup de grace. TIM was totally fucked long before that.

 

I agree that TIM was indoctrinated before the implants however I don't agree with you on when it occurred. Not that you don't make a lot of interesting and good points and observations but it still doesn't fit well, imo, with TIM or Cerberus. Even assuming what you propose is true, that the collectors had control of TIM from the start and just didn't stop him from resurrecting Shepard or actively working against them because they didn't want to rush the indoctrination (which I'm not against, in of itself, mind you)... theres still no reason they should had lost Shepard's body to Cerberus.

 

Harbinger, through a collector, was working with the Shadow Broker to obtain Shepard's corpse. Cerberus swiped it out from under them. Harbinger was pissed. I can understand them not risking their long-term indoctrination plan by taking control of TIM that early but if he was indoctrinated wouldn't they KNOW his plans? They wouldn't have to make him stop, they could just plan accordingly and be one step ahead of him. They could had warned the Shadow Broker in advanced. There are many steps they could had taken to keep TIM from getting Shepard's body if he was indeed indoctrinated that wouldn't require them actually taking TIM over.

 

This actually applies throughout the entirety of the second game, really. Sure, they wouldn't stop TIM from sending the Normandy through the omega relay but they would know exactly when you're about to make the jump. They would had placed more security waiting for your arrive other than just a few space disco balls, right? If TIM was indoctrinated that early in the series, even if they didn't want to directly control him or risk their long-term indoctrination scheme they would still know what he had planned. They'd be able to plan for it, prepare. They could circumvent every action Cerberus takes against them, all without directly taking over TIM.

 

 

 

As for the arguments of TIM sending Shepard on board the collector ship trap and the dead reaper being support of his indoctrination at the time, well, personally I see this as all circumstantial. Unlike Shepard, I actually agreed with TIM's reasoning for sending them into the trap. Before thinking the possibility of a leak getting out being preposterous lets not forget that the Shadow Broker has live-cam feeds of the Normandy security cameras. The normandy is not as secure and private as one might think. When TIM said that telling Shepard could had tipped the collectors off in any number of ways, I feel that is justified and reasonable.

 

The dead reaper ship is a bit different. It's important to remember, I believe, that TIM didn't JUST send Shepard out to the ship. He sent a team to investigate it after it went quiet, they just didn't make it. We needed that IFF and attempts of retrieval had failed.

Plus having TIM be this hidden Indoctrinated Agent from the very start would had to be a bit more planned out, imo. Cerberus and TIM weren't even planned up until the start of ME2. I can't help but feel skeptical of there being that deep of an important connection underlying the whole thing that far back when they didn't even come up with the character until the halfway point of the trilogy. Though I admit this bit is just as circumstantial as the collector trap argument and doesn't actually mean anything definitive. Just my personal feelings on the matter.
 

 

I completely agree on your stance regarding the novels and your OT remarks about Cerberus' infiltration of  the citadel, though.

[The Devlish Redhead]

The Cerberus incursion in the citadel was an attack they planned for quite some time. If you take your time during the mission where you save the council there are numerous datapads with infos about how it was done:

 

 

Which mission is this precisely?

[Valmar]

Which mission is this precisely?

 

I believe he is referring to the ME3 mission where you save the council during the cerberus attack. As you progress though the battle-scarred rooms and fight invading Cerberus troops you can come across a few terminals and datapads that talk about the events discussed earlier and being referred to by Ivan. If you just go through the level without reading these logs or computer terminals you wouldn't get any of the backstory of how Cerberus managed to pull this off because it isn't directly told to player at any point, that I'm aware. You have to actively search for it.

[The Devlish Redhead]

I believe he is referring to the ME3 mission where you save the council during the cerberus attack. As you progress though the battle-scarred rooms and fight invading Cerberus troops you can come across a few terminals and datapads that talk about the events discussed earlier and being referred to by Ivan. If you just go through the level without reading these logs or computer terminals you wouldn't get any of the backstory of how Cerberus managed to pull this off because it isn't directly told to player at any point, that I'm aware. You have to actively search for it.

 

 

ah good to know............

 

 

 

I am also wondering if the PCC editor for Mass Effect 2 will work on 3 because the program itself has the ME3 icon

 

I'd like to play with my engine and sfxgame.pcc files

[StarcloudSWG]

The Cerberus team found the IFF. They'd even retrieved the IFF, had it all packaged up and ready to be shipped, conveniently on a table.

 

But the Reaper plan was to divert and possibly capture/kill Shepard, while not making it cripplingly obvious to their indoctrinated servant (TIM/Jack Harper) that he was actually indoctrinated. Certainly, they kept Shepard out of circulation and out of a position where he/she could be building up the galaxy's defenses.

 

And with Cerberus being strengthened, the Reaper plan was always to use them to divide and conquer from within. Why else have TIM convinced that implanting his troops with Reaper-tech was a good thing? It was just a way to insert their own 'fifth column' in the current galactic civilizations.

[Kabooooom]

To be fair, though, we don't actually know the... shall way say, insignificance of the collector threat until the ending. Pretty much up until that point we were under the assumption that the collector HOMEWORLD was beyond the omega relay. All we really knew for certain as that this race (collectors) were highly advanced, working with/for the reapers, had a keen interest in humans and human colonies and they come from the omega 4 relay. Was anyone really expecting the collector homeworld to turn out to be just a giant collector ship?

Though, in hindsight, one does have to wonder how exactly Shepard planned to stop them if they actually DID have a homeworld on the other side. Say, a homeworld that was essentially a massive industrial manufacturing hub preparing for war due to the incoming reaper invasion. How was one squad and one ship suppose to stop an entire planet? Its a good thing the collectors were such a relatively minor opposition consisting of just one giant ship that you could conveniently blow up with a single portable explosive. It's reasons like this, imo, that its best not to think too heavily on fictional stories.

All that aside however isn't it really the reaper connection that draws Shepard into the whole thing in the first place? Sure, saving human colonies plays a role, to be sure, but the 'selling point' that got Shepard to agree to work with Cerberus was that they (collectors) were connected with the reapers. If Shep wants to hinder the reapers what else could he/she have done at that point? It's not like anyone was really listening or taking the threat seriously. Action is better than inaction and Shep did, in the very least, throw a wrench in the reapers plans - even if its just an ant gnawing at the heels of a giant.



I agree that TIM was indoctrinated before the implants however I don't agree with you on when it occurred. Not that you don't make a lot of interesting and good points and observations but it still doesn't fit well, imo, with TIM or Cerberus. Even assuming what you propose is true, that the collectors had control of TIM from the start and just didn't stop him from resurrecting Shepard or actively working against them because they didn't want to rush the indoctrination (which I'm not against, in of itself, mind you)... theres still no reason they should had lost Shepard's body to Cerberus.

Harbinger, through a collector, was working with the Shadow Broker to obtain Shepard's corpse. Cerberus swiped it out from under them. Harbinger was pissed. I can understand them not risking their long-term indoctrination plan by taking control of TIM that early but if he was indoctrinated wouldn't they KNOW his plans? They wouldn't have to make him stop, they could just plan accordingly and be one step ahead of him. They could had warned the Shadow Broker in advanced. There are many steps they could had taken to keep TIM from getting Shepard's body if he was indeed indoctrinated that wouldn't require them actually taking TIM over.

This actually applies throughout the entirety of the second game, really. Sure, they wouldn't stop TIM from sending the Normandy through the omega relay but they would know exactly when you're about to make the jump. They would had placed more security waiting for your arrive other than just a few space disco balls, right? If TIM was indoctrinated that early in the series, even if they didn't want to directly control him or risk their long-term indoctrination scheme they would still know what he had planned. They'd be able to plan for it, prepare. They could circumvent every action Cerberus takes against them, all without directly taking over TIM.



As for the arguments of TIM sending Shepard on board the collector ship trap and the dead reaper being support of his indoctrination at the time, well, personally I see this as all circumstantial. Unlike Shepard, I actually agreed with TIM's reasoning for sending them into the trap. Before thinking the possibility of a leak getting out being preposterous lets not forget that the Shadow Broker has live-cam feeds of the Normandy security cameras. The normandy is not as secure and private as one might think. When TIM said that telling Shepard could had tipped the collectors off in any number of ways, I feel that is justified and reasonable.

The dead reaper ship is a bit different. It's important to remember, I believe, that TIM didn't JUST send Shepard out to the ship. He sent a team to investigate it after it went quiet, they just didn't make it. We needed that IFF and attempts of retrieval had failed.
Plus having TIM be this hidden Indoctrinated Agent from the very start would had to be a bit more planned out, imo. Cerberus and TIM weren't even planned up until the start of ME2. I can't help but feel skeptical of there being that deep of an important connection underlying the whole thing that far back when they didn't even come up with the character until the halfway point of the trilogy. Though I admit this bit is just as circumstantial as the collector trap argument and doesn't actually mean anything definitive. Just my personal feelings on the matter.


I completely agree on your stance regarding the novels and your OT remarks about Cerberus' infiltration of the citadel, though.

Sorry, I'm not following. Why would the Collectors be privy to ANY of the Reapers plans? They are merely pawns of the Reapers.

[SwobyJ]

I bet that since Cronos Station, the Reapers and Cerberus were effectively entirely Reaper forces, period. The point of no return, not just for Shepard, but for TIM.

 

And I bet that the Citadel was full of indoctrinated 'refugees' (yay for Paragon letting more of them in!) of the Reapers, not just Cerberus.

 

TIM probably just walked in during a (probably-cool-to-see..) more major Citadel Coup, saw how amazingly better the Reapers were at this sort of thing (than Cerberus), and basically went straight to the superstitious-awe stage of the Reapers that we get to see when we last meet him.

 

Since Shepard was distracted by Cerberus (Cronos Station), thus having Cerberus fill their 'distraction' role for the Reapers, the Citadel was finally taken and then we have to suppose that the 'Catalyst' and/or Reaper forces moved it to Earth. For whatever reason. Probably another trap. Come join the Reapers, Shepard.

 

 

I think its all a mind trip anyway. I'm just remarking on internal consistency