80 réponses à ce sujet

[n7stormreaver]

Was anyone really expecting the collector homeworld to turn out to be just a giant collector ship?

 

Actually, Mordin did. He speculated that planets may not exist in galactic core and that it's probably just a very advanced space station. 

[Valmar]

Sorry, I'm not following. Why would the Collectors be privy to ANY of the Reapers plans? They are merely pawns of the Reapers.

 

I'm not certain what specific part you were referring to, as I did point out Harbinger's connection which I feel is the most critical element. The collectors were just pawns, yes. However its obvious that Harbinger is taking direct control over collectors throughout the game and is the mastermind pulling the strings. In the comic where the collectors are negotiating the acquisition of Shepard's body from the Shadow Broker it is Harbinger just using the body of a collector. To assume the collectors, who are controlled and guided by Harbinger/reapers from darkspace, would be oblivious to the plans of an indoctrinated agent (in this case, TIM) is rather silly, don't you think? Sure, the individual mindless drones may not know it, but the collectors are more than just husks. They're agents of the reapers, being directly guided and orchestrated by Harbinger personally.

 

If the Illusive Man really was secretly being gradually indoctrinated from the very start then the collectors would know about all his plans and schemes. Because the collectors are lead by the head-honcho reaper, Harbinger. Harbinger, who is supposed to be like the leader of the reapers, is the one guiding the collectors and telling them what needs to be done. Sure, he doesn't control every single individual directly at all times but he is overseeing the whole thing. He would know of Cerberus' plans and would had been able to situate his forces (the collectors) accordingly, would he not?

 

Hell, they (the reapers) could had even subtly guided TIM's hand in ME2. Like you said, it isn't an all-or-nothing thing. The reapers can be very subtle with their indoctrination. The Illusive Man had the chance to put a control chip in Shepard's brain but decided against it. The one arguing for the chip was Miranda too, which should be noted due to the significance of her position. It seems to me that it would had been easy then, especially with Miranda's advice, to subtly influence TIM to agree with Miranda and go with the chip. This would had been a huge bonus for the reapers. Personally I just don't think the idea of TIM being indoctrinated that early in the series holds well with the narrative, despite his earlier encounters with reaper artifacts in the comics.

 

That being said, its not like the story as it is is perfect and free of plotholes and inconsistencies. So who knows.

 

 

 

I bet that since Cronos Station, the Reapers and Cerberus were effectively entirely Reaper forces, period. The point of no return, not just for Shepard, but for TIM.

 

Personally I believe TIM was indoctrinated far sooner than that. My bet is on it happening after he had the human-reaper mounted on display outside his office.

 

 

Actually, Mordin did. He speculated that planets may not exist in galactic core and that it's probably just a very advanced space station. 

 

Yes, I know. Though, like I said earlier, this wasn't until practically the end of the game. We didn't even know the relay took you to the galactic core until that point, either. I didn't make this clear enough, sorry. When I said "Pretty much up until that point" I was trying to show I wasn't being completely absolute in the matter. I could had worded it better, my bad. What I was trying to point out, though, was that it isn't until near the end of the game until we learn about this stuff. I can't remember precisely when it was that EDI pieced together all the black holes and whatnot, though I believe it was shortly after the collector trap.

 

The cutscene after that where Shepard confronts TIM about it (sending them into a trap, that is) TIM says without the data we wouldn't be able to get to the collector homeworld. So it really isnt until further along in the game do you make these discoveries. Up until that point, its a homeworld we're after, not a single base.

 

[n7stormreaver]

Yes, I know. Though, like I said earlier, this wasn't until practically the end of the game. We didn't even know the relay took you to the galactic core until that point, either. I didn't make this clear enough, sorry. When I said "Pretty much up until that point" I was trying to show I wasn't being completely absolute in the matter. I could had worded it better, my bad. What I was trying to point out, though, was that it isn't until near the end of the game until we learn about this stuff. I can't remember precisely when it was that EDI pieced together all the black holes and whatnot, though I believe it was shortly after the collector trap.

 

The cutscene after that where Shepard confronts TIM about it (sending them into a trap, that is) TIM says without the data we wouldn't be able to get to the collector homeworld. So it really isnt until further along in the game do you make these discoveries. Up until that point, its a homeworld we're after, not a single base.

 

It was exactly after Cruiser Trap, true. 

 

But maybe they were planning to do it step-by-step, like gather team first, intel and maybe nuclear weaponry (like one used in Collector Base ending) later.

[Valmar]

Yeah, I suppose. Honestly, imo, if it had actually been a homeworld like they thought I can't see them doing much more than just recon. Which the Normandy would be great for, incidentally. I'm not sure there exists anything even in Mass Effect lore that can actually destroy an entire planet. Unless, of course, the plan was to destroy the relay and let the resulting explosion take care of things. Hm. Still, the team-building suggests their plans involve something more on the lines of a frontal assault. I don't know. All I'm saying is that its awfully convenient for them that the collector base is just a single ship that can be destroyed by a portable explosive. The game likely would had been much longer otherwise. Or, again, theres always destroying the relay. Though that may not been quite as epic a the suicide mission from an entertainment perspective.

 

However, if they wanted a much longer game and story I suppose you could always have the Normandy recon the planet and send the information to the council and hope that NOW they'd do something. Still brings to question the point of recruiting the best of the best, though, if the end result isn't a giant battle plan with everyone fighting off collectors on a epic mission to blow them all to hell. In that sense, I like the ending as it is. I just think its very convenient the way things turned out, is all.

 

My point for bringing all that up in the first place though was to counter the argument that ME2 had nothing to do with stopping the reaper invasion. They had no way of knowing how insignificant the collectors were in the grand scheme of things. The Omega 4 relay very well could had lead to a collector homeworld that was gearing up for war and preparing for the incoming invasion. The collectors could had been a huge threat and be a considerable pawn in the reaper invasion. Even finding out whats on the other side could had been hugely beneficial in getting the proof the council needed to take the reapers seriously. Who knows. Of course, none of that was the case. It's really easy to say in hindsight that the "Stop the collectors" mission wasn't important in the reaper war but at the time it wasn't so obvious. There were valid reasons for taking on the collectors and we had reason to believe it would aid us or play a big part in the reaper war.

[Vazgen]

To assume the collectors, who are controlled and guided by Harbinger/reapers from darkspace, would be oblivious to the plans of an indoctrinated agent (in this case, TIM) is rather silly, don't you think? Sure, the individual mindless drones may not know it, but the collectors are more than just husks. They're agents of the reapers, being directly guided and orchestrated by Harbinger personally.

Something just came to mind, have you considered a possibility that the Collectors are merely a distraction to make the races of the cycle waste time hunting them instead of preparing for the Reaper invasion (which is exactly what they accomplish)? Reading their history in wiki you can notice a connection. They activate in less than a month from the Battle of the Citadel and one week later destroy the Normandy. Then Shepard is rebuilt and voilà, Collectors activate again, this time on a grander scale.

My idea is that TIM's indoctrination starts from the First Contact War but after the artifact, he had a contact with, is destroyed the process is slowed to a crawl. He starts to behave much differently than Jack Harper he once was, but he still has enough willpower to keep in mind the general idea o stopping the Reapers. Thus he is able to rebuild Shepard without a control chip. When he hangs parts of a human Reaper next to his office, indoctrination proceeds much faster and by the time of ME3 he is almost fully under Reaper control.

[Kabooooom]

I'm not certain what specific part you were referring to, as I did point out Harbinger's connection which I feel is the most critical element. The collectors were just pawns, yes. However its obvious that Harbinger is taking direct control over collectors throughout the game and is the mastermind pulling the strings. In the comic where the collectors are negotiating the acquisition of Shepard's body from the Shadow Broker it is Harbinger just using the body of a collector. To assume the collectors, who are controlled and guided by Harbinger/reapers from darkspace, would be oblivious to the plans of an indoctrinated agent (in this case, TIM) is rather silly, don't you think? Sure, the individual mindless drones may not know it, but the collectors are more than just husks. They're agents of the reapers, being directly guided and orchestrated by Harbinger personally.

If the Illusive Man really was secretly being gradually indoctrinated from the very start then the collectors would know about all his plans and schemes. Because the collectors are lead by the head-honcho reaper, Harbinger. Harbinger, who is supposed to be like the leader of the reapers, is the one guiding the collectors and telling them what needs to be done. Sure, he doesn't control every single individual directly at all times but he is overseeing the whole thing. He would know of Cerberus' plans and would had been able to situate his forces (the collectors) accordingly, would he not?

Hell, they (the reapers) could had even subtly guided TIM's hand in ME2. Like you said, it isn't an all-or-nothing thing. The reapers can be very subtle with their indoctrination. The Illusive Man had the chance to put a control chip in Shepard's brain but decided against it. The one arguing for the chip was Miranda too, which should be noted due to the significance of her position. It seems to me that it would had been easy then, especially with Miranda's advice, to subtly influence TIM to agree with Miranda and go with the chip. This would had been a huge bonus for the reapers. Personally I just don't think the idea of TIM being indoctrinated that early in the series holds well with the narrative, despite his earlier encounters with reaper artifacts in the comics.

That being said, its not like the story as it is is perfect and free of plotholes and inconsistencies. So who knows.




Personally I believe TIM was indoctrinated far sooner than that. My bet is on it happening after he had the human-reaper mounted on display outside his office.



Yes, I know. Though, like I said earlier, this wasn't until practically the end of the game. We didn't even know the relay took you to the galactic core until that point, either. I didn't make this clear enough, sorry. When I said "Pretty much up until that point" I was trying to show I wasn't being completely absolute in the matter. I could had worded it better, my bad. What I was trying to point out, though, was that it isn't until near the end of the game until we learn about this stuff. I can't remember precisely when it was that EDI pieced together all the black holes and whatnot, though I believe it was shortly after the collector trap.

The cutscene after that where Shepard confronts TIM about it (sending them into a trap, that is) TIM says without the data we wouldn't be able to get to the collector homeworld. So it really isnt until further along in the game do you make these discoveries. Up until that point, its a homeworld we're after, not a single base.

The Collectors ARE mindless drones - Mordin affirms this. The only time they aren't mindless drones is when Harbinger takes control of one. Potentially, the Collector general is more than a mindless drone as well. But the rest of them - there's nothing of a mind left. I have a hard time believing they would be able to even comprehend a Reaper plan, much less be privy to it.

[Farangbaa]

Indoctrination is such a weak story mechanic.

 

Can't find proper motivation that makes sense? INSERT INDOCTRINATION HERE

[JamesFaith]

 

If the Illusive Man really was secretly being gradually indoctrinated from the very start then the collectors would know about all his plans and schemes. Because the collectors are lead by the head-honcho reaper, Harbinger. Harbinger, who is supposed to be like the leader of the reapers, is the one guiding the collectors and telling them what needs to be done. Sure, he doesn't control every single individual directly at all times but he is overseeing the whole thing. He would know of Cerberus' plans and would had been able to situate his forces (the collectors) accordingly, would he not?

 

Hell, they (the reapers) could had even subtly guided TIM's hand in ME2. Like you said, it isn't an all-or-nothing thing. The reapers can be very subtle with their indoctrination. The Illusive Man had the chance to put a control chip in Shepard's brain but decided against it. The one arguing for the chip was Miranda too, which should be noted due to the significance of her position. It seems to me that it would had been easy then, especially with Miranda's advice, to subtly influence TIM to agree with Miranda and go with the chip. This would had been a huge bonus for the reapers. Personally I just don't think the idea of TIM being indoctrinated that early in the series holds well with the narrative, despite his earlier encounters with reaper artifacts in the comics.

 

 

 

 

There is one main difference between Saren, Collector and TIM - there are all indoctrinated but with different kind of control.

 

Collectors are directly controlled from dark space through quantum entanglement nanites, same as Grayson was.

 

Saren spend about 20 years near and in Sovereign so he was under direct surveillance too.

 

But TIM was out of radar since first exposure during FCW. No nanites to be controlled directly and no Reaper nearby to influence him. He was prepared for being controlled but technically he was just puppet without puppeteer. Harbinger didnť know what he is doing.

 

By my opinion he was just "infected" with idea that Reapers can be controlled for good of humanity, when he was exposed to artifact in FCW, and Reapers started pushing on him during ME3 when they actively searched for their assets (like Rana) and get to him through Protoreaper trophy in Cronos station.

[Valmar]

Something just came to mind, have you considered a possibility that the Collectors are merely a distraction to make the races of the cycle waste time hunting them instead of preparing for the Reaper invasion (which is exactly what they accomplish)? Reading their history in wiki you can notice a connection. They activate in less than a month from the Battle of the Citadel and one week later destroy the Normandy. Then Shepard is rebuilt and voilà, Collectors activate again, this time on a grander scale.

 

My idea is that TIM's indoctrination starts from the First Contact War but after the artifact, he had a contact with, is destroyed the process is slowed to a crawl. He starts to behave much differently than Jack Harper he once was, but he still has enough willpower to keep in mind the general idea o stopping the Reapers. Thus he is able to rebuild Shepard without a control chip. When he hangs parts of a human Reaper next to his office, indoctrination proceeds much faster and by the time of ME3 he is almost fully under Reaper control.

 

Is it what they accomplished? They make pretty poor distractions, imo, if no one but Cerberus is even taking them seriously. The Collectors are widely regarded as a myth and propaganda by commoner standards. The Collectors also take great strives to remain secretive in their operations, attacking only remote terminus colonies that won't draw too much attention by the big governments. Which it doesn't, for the most part. That was part of the reason why Shepard had to work with Cerberus in the first place - no one else was willing to do anything.

 

Cerberus played a better distraction in the reaper war then the collectors ever did, honestly. I again ask what exactly is being expected of Shepard here? What more could Shepard had done to prepare for the reapers? It isn't like they had anything else to go on and no one was willing to listen to anything. Fighting the collectors, who we knew were linked to the reapers, was the only real action Shepard could take to make any kind of a difference.

 

Also the same wiki you refer to also says the Collectors have been showing up now-and-again every few centuries, so it isn't like they only just now arrived on the scene after the Shepard incident. The narrative gives a fairly good explanation for what they're there for, imo. They're studying organic genetics. They didn't start targeting humans specifically until the battle of the citadel but before that they were still studying organics.

 

The theory of Jack being indoctrinated from the start isn't bad. It just isn't for me. There are too many inconsistencies and contradictions that you'd have to explain away with wild assumptions. Mass Effect, as a whole, already has enough inconsistencies and contradictions as it is. I rather not add more, especially when it doesn't feel needed. IMO, Jack getting indoctrinated after mounting a giant reaper outside his room fits a lot better and doesn't require me to make any wild assumptions about this and that, nor does it ever conflict with the lore that I'm aware of.

 

 

The Collectors ARE mindless drones - Mordin affirms this. The only time they aren't mindless drones is when Harbinger takes control of one. Potentially, the Collector general is more than a mindless drone as well. But the rest of them - there's nothing of a mind left. I have a hard time believing they would be able to even comprehend a Reaper plan, much less be privy to it.

 

Yes, I know. I'm confused now. I said pretty much all this in the post you're quoting, why are you responding as if I said anything contrary. I called them mindless drones and I pointed out that Harbinger takes control of them.

 

Okay. Let me see if I can reword this. The collectors, the organization force behind them, the mind behind them, the one giving them orders for which they follow is NOT a collector, but Harbinger. We both agree on this, yes? We both said as much. Harbinger is a reaper. Yes? Yes. Harbinger is not only A reaper but the head-honcho reaper, the big daddy of reapers. When I say the collectors would know the plans of an indoctrinated agent I don't mean specifically the drones. I think you're taking me too literally, perhaps. The collectors are controlled by Harbinger, he is the one telling them what to do and he is the mastermind. He is a reaper. He would know about TIM's plans if he was indoctrinated. He would then plan accordingly through the collectors whom he is in control of.

 

Again, it was Harbinger, using a collector as a vessel, that was handling the trade of Shepard's body with the Shadow Broker. If TIM was indoctrinated wouldn't he know about Cerberus' plan? Wouldn't he have his collector troops plan accordingly? The collectors are servants of the reapers, being directly guided by the leader of the reapers. If TIM was indoctrinated Harbinger would know his plans and would had been able to counter them. Because the Collectors aren't working 'alone' as mindless husks, they're being directed by Harbinger personally. They're fulfilling his will. When I say the collectors would know I don't mean so literally that the collectors are individuals capable of knowing things. I mean it because the collectors are all being controlled and guided by Harbinger who WOULD definitely know.

 

I'm not really sure how else to explain it - I'm a bit surprised you're having such a difficult time understanding me here.

 

 

 

 

There is one main difference between Saren, Collector and TIM - there are all indoctrinated but with different kind of control.

 

Collectors are directly controlled from dark space through quantum entanglement nanites, same as Grayson was.

 

Saren spend about 20 years near and in Sovereign so he was under direct surveillance too.

 

But TIM was out of radar since first exposure during FCW. No nanites to be controlled directly and no Reaper nearby to influence him. He was prepared for being controlled but technically he was just puppet without puppeteer. Harbinger didnť know what he is doing.

 

By my opinion he was just "infected" with idea that Reapers can be controlled for good of humanity, when he was exposed to artifact in FCW, and Reapers started pushing on him during ME3 when they actively searched for their assets (like Rana) and get to him through Protoreaper trophy in Cronos station.

 

That may be, if you want to make assumptions about this and that. I like your idea better than most, at least. Even if it does rely on us assuming this works this way and that way. Still even this seems to go against some of the claims made earlier in this thread. Remarks like saying that TIM was serving the reapers from the start and that everything in ME2 only helps the reapers because of it and that he was just a tool to give Shepard to them.

 

All that being said though I do appreciate that you propose a solution to why Harbinger wouldn't be aware of TIM's actions in the second game. At least someone understood what I was trying to say - lol.

[Vazgen]

Good points, guess that debunks that idea

I prefer the idea that Harper was starting to get indoctrinated due to his contact with the artifact. However, Saren destroyed that artifact and link to the Reapers was severed. He tried to stop them, worked to understand them and found out about the Collectors, brought Shepard back who then destroyed the base (saved it). And then he brings the Reaper to study and the link is reestablished. Thus much faster indoctrination than in case of Saren

[Kabooooom]

Is it what they accomplished? They make pretty poor distractions, imo, if no one but Cerberus is even taking them seriously. The Collectors are widely regarded as a myth and propaganda by commoner standards. The Collectors also take great strives to remain secretive in their operations, attacking only remote terminus colonies that won't draw too much attention by the big governments. Which it doesn't, for the most part. That was part of the reason why Shepard had to work with Cerberus in the first place - no one else was willing to do anything.

Cerberus played a better distraction in the reaper war then the collectors ever did, honestly. I again ask what exactly is being expected of Shepard here? What more could Shepard had done to prepare for the reapers? It isn't like they had anything else to go on and no one was willing to listen to anything. Fighting the collectors, who we knew were linked to the reapers, was the only real action Shepard could take to make any kind of a difference.

Also the same wiki you refer to also says the Collectors have been showing up now-and-again every few centuries, so it isn't like they only just now arrived on the scene after the Shepard incident. The narrative gives a fairly good explanation for what they're there for, imo. They're studying organic genetics. They didn't start targeting humans specifically until the battle of the citadel but before that they were still studying organics.

The theory of Jack being indoctrinated from the start isn't bad. It just isn't for me. There are too many inconsistencies and contradictions that you'd have to explain away with wild assumptions. Mass Effect, as a whole, already has enough inconsistencies and contradictions as it is. I rather not add more, especially when it doesn't feel needed. IMO, Jack getting indoctrinated after mounting a giant reaper outside his room fits a lot better and doesn't require me to make any wild assumptions about this and that, nor does it ever conflict with the lore that I'm aware of.



Yes, I know. I'm confused now. I said pretty much all this in the post you're quoting, why are you responding as if I said anything contrary. I called them mindless drones and I pointed out that Harbinger takes control of them.

Okay. Let me see if I can reword this. The collectors, the organization force behind them, the mind behind them, the one giving them orders for which they follow is NOT a collector, but Harbinger. We both agree on this, yes? We both said as much. Harbinger is a reaper. Yes? Yes. Harbinger is not only A reaper but the head-honcho reaper, the big daddy of reapers. When I say the collectors would know the plans of an indoctrinated agent I don't mean specifically the drones. I think you're taking me too literally, perhaps. The collectors are controlled by Harbinger, he is the one telling them what to do and he is the mastermind. He is a reaper. He would know about TIM's plans if he was indoctrinated. He would then plan accordingly through the collectors whom he is in control of.

Again, it was Harbinger, using a collector as a vessel, that was handling the trade of Shepard's body with the Shadow Broker. If TIM was indoctrinated wouldn't he know about Cerberus' plan? Wouldn't he have his collector troops plan accordingly? The collectors are servants of the reapers, being directly guided by the leader of the reapers. If TIM was indoctrinated Harbinger would know his plans and would had been able to counter them. Because the Collectors aren't working 'alone' as mindless husks, they're being directed by Harbinger personally. They're fulfilling his will. When I say the collectors would know I don't mean so literally that the collectors are individuals capable of knowing things. I mean it because the collectors are all being controlled and guided by Harbinger who WOULD definitely know.

I'm not really sure how else to explain it - I'm a bit surprised you're having such a difficult time understanding me here.





That may be, if you want to make assumptions about this and that. I like your idea better than most, at least. Even if it does rely on us assuming this works this way and that way. Still even this seems to go against some of the claims made earlier in this thread. Remarks like saying that TIM was serving the reapers from the start and that everything in ME2 only helps the reapers because of it and that he was just a tool to give Shepard to them.

All that being said though I do appreciate that you propose a solution to why Harbinger wouldn't be aware of TIM's actions in the second game. At least someone understood what I was trying to say - lol.

Ah, my bad, I did misunderstand you completely. Probably because I work 17 hr days and then tried to read what you wrote. We are in agreement.

I would counter your point though by saying that Harbinger would not necessarily know of TIMs actions, if TIM is largely autonomous - as Saren was. It's not like every single action is controlled by the Reapers. He is allowed to choose, and consequently there is a degree of unpredictability with that.

[SwobyJ]

Good points, guess that debunks that idea

I prefer the idea that Harper was starting to get indoctrinated due to his contact with the artifact. However, Saren destroyed that artifact and link to the Reapers was severed. He tried to stop them, worked to understand them and found out about the Collectors, brought Shepard back who then destroyed the base (saved it). And then he brings the Reaper to study and the link is reestablished. Thus much faster indoctrination than in case of Saren

 

I think this too.

 

A friend has a crazzzzyy theory that he's actually the essence left of the Derelict Reaper (thus how he conveniently knew where it was located). So while he was indirectly controlled by the Reapers at first, the connection was mostly severed when the artifact was destroyed, and then totally when the Derelict Reaper was fully destroyed. A connection was then established after that, in ME3, that brought him more in line - at least when he finally enters the Citadel.

 

Main point is that he's always skirted the edges of being controlled by the Reapers in ways that Shepard never understood, but he never was fully controlled (just enough that he could never have taken control of the Reapers himself), but still gained enough knowledge about the Reapers to counter them.

 

This would all be background stuff that even if true, we're not supposed to know or care about it much (at least not yet - depends what the next game contains or doesn't contain).

[Valmar]

Ah, my bad, I did misunderstand you completely. Probably because I work 17 hr days and then tried to read what you wrote. We are in agreement.

I would counter your point though by saying that Harbinger would not necessarily know of TIMs actions, if TIM is largely autonomous - as Saren was. It's not like every single action is controlled by the Reapers. He is allowed to choose, and consequently there is a degree of unpredictability with that.

 

It seems odd though that they wouldn't keep tabs on him if he was actually indoctrinated though, doesn't it? Some of the information the Collectors were after was stuff like census data. This is something a pro-human organization like Cerberus would definitely have on human colonies. Hell, Cerberus has a lot of political and financial power in general. I'd even argue that TIM as an agent is an even bigger deal then Saren was. Saren was a Spectre, yes, and had some good banking power if he could fund the whole Noveria thing.

 

All that pales in comparison to the amount of power TIM has over everything, though. If he was an indoctrinated agent from that early on wouldn't it make sense to think the reapers would at least keep track of his dealings? They'd have unrestricted access to his thoughts and plans. They may not want to alter them or guide them at risk of alerting him or whatever but they would still be able to know his thoughts, wouldn't they?

 

Assuming that they just left him on autopilot and never paid any attention to his activities, despite the huge source of data monitoring him could provide, wouldn't they at least give monitoring him higher priority after he swooped in and ruined their plans of getting Shepard's body? When he's actively messing up your plans I'd say thats time to start snooping around more if you have the ability to do so. The Shadow Broker managed to get some personal information on him, such as who he beds and what he drank, so wouldn't the reapers be able to get some information if he was already indoctrinated?

 

Thinking back on the collector trap... if he was indoctrinated then it wouldn't had mattered if he told Shepard about the plan because the reapers/collectors would already know he knew it was a trap. They've had so many opportunities and to take advantage of their inside source yet they never did. It isn't until ME3 does TIM start behaving oddly or doing very questionable things that inadvertently help the reapers. Coincidentally in ME3 he has also had the reaper human mounted outside his office for sometime. Which is why I think that is when the indoctrinated began, not when he got the implants.

 

I have nothing really against the idea of him being indoctrinated from the start, though. Each cycle has had a cerberus, according to the prothean VI, so its kinda cool to think that he was working for them all along. I just think that his actions and behavior in ME2 (also the novels) is inconsistent with this idea and requires a lot of fan-assumption about this and that to sweep away the the plotholes. Something the main story has enough as it is, imo.

 

On the other hand the idea of the human reaper being the cause of his indoctrination doesn't, in my opinion, feel out of place nor needs anything to be swept away. It explains his behavior and actions in the third game and all fits together rather well, imo. Unless theres something about it that doesn't make sense that I'm missing, of course. I'll admit I haven't went through it with a fine comb or anything.

[JamesFaith]

It seems odd though that they wouldn't keep tabs on him if he was actually indoctrinated though, doesn't it? Some of the information the Collectors were after was stuff like census data. This is something a pro-human organization like Cerberus would definitely have on human colonies. Hell, Cerberus has a lot of political and financial power in general. I'd even argue that TIM as an agent is an even bigger deal then Saren was. Saren was a Spectre, yes, and had some good banking power if he could fund the whole Noveria thing.

 

 

Not necessarily. 

 

When TIM was indoctrinated he was just Jack Harper, mercenary and agent in secret operation. Comparing to Saren he was insignificant, just middle value good investment. Implant him vague idea about control of Reapers and he should become opposing vote in Alliance intelligence during war or preparation to it, till Reapers assume full control.

 

When he become leader of Cerberus and source of power and information, he was already in hiding. And without QE nanites both Sovereign and Harbinger have no means how to reach him. Their most precious source of info, Saren, don't know about TIM whereabouts (in other case he would kill him) and after Saren death Harbinger have even less info about events in galaxy.

[dreamgazer]

How many exploits did Thane spot in the mere seconds of walking through Citadel security?

[SilJeff]

14 fatal flaws a skilled assassin could exploit.

 

there were 8[?] when he was there before the Sovereign attack

[Stronglav]

Is it so difficult to understand that C-SEC is a bunch of useless idiots?

 

Especially this chick:

 

 

They suspect ASARI of being a Geth but do not see a Geth when one is near them.

Retards!!!

[ImaginaryMatter]

How many exploits did Thane spot in the mere seconds of walking through Citadel security?

 

He did say skilled assassin, no one in the Ivory Mook Brigade seems to have the subtlety of an assassin nor their skills.

[Valmar]

Not necessarily. 

 

When TIM was indoctrinated he was just Jack Harper, mercenary and agent in secret operation. Comparing to Saren he was insignificant, just middle value good investment. Implant him vague idea about control of Reapers and he should become opposing vote in Alliance intelligence during war or preparation to it, till Reapers assume full control.

 

When he become leader of Cerberus and source of power and information, he was already in hiding. And without QE nanites both Sovereign and Harbinger have no means how to reach him. Their most precious source of info, Saren, don't know about TIM whereabouts (in other case he would kill him) and after Saren death Harbinger have even less info about events in galaxy.

 

Do we actually know that the nanites are a requirement for the reapers to reach the host? I thought that was just one method they used to indoctrinate (more like huskifiy). There have been a lot of cases of reaper indoctrination that didn't involve any nanities being injected. Its possible that the less subtle and more absolute nanite conversion is the only one that directly links them together but is it ever actually said to be the case or just just speculation? It's been a while since I've read the novel about this (the one with Grayson).

 

I remember in the Arrival dlc Kensen stopped hearing the reapers voices shortly after Shepard came in and ruined everything. Seems to me they were able to 'read her mind' just fine without her being injected with nanites.

 

I was under the assumption that TIM's use of nanites to control husks was just his only means of doing so, not that the reapers were limited to nanites or had no other methods themselves. Their indoctrination ability is derived, at least in part, from the Leviathans who just need you to be near a source. A trend we definitely see occurring repeatedly with reaper indoctrination, where people are indoctrinated by just being around reaper artifacts.

 

All that being said though if the Illusive Man was going to be indoctrinated at the very start I'd say in his case its more likely to be nanites. He wasn't just in presence of a reaper artifact, he was directly changed by it. What with the eyes and everything. If he WAS indoctrinated at that moment wouldn't it be more likely to be the nanite variation of indoctrination, since the effect was directly physical and left him with husk eyes? Though then they should have a connection to him, if that is indeed the only way they can interact with indoctrinated thralls. Yet his actions in ME2 seem to refute this possibility. I don't see why the reapers would be oblivious to so many of his actions if he was actually indoctrinated. Interesting and fun to think about, though.

 

Coincidentally I thought of one flaw in the "the human reaper did it" idea. If TIM and thus Cerberus was indoctrinated that earlier on then why would his 'improved' troopers be fighting reapers? Maybe its just as the game pretty much tells us in the story and he isn't actually indoctrinated until he goes planting all that reaper crap in his brain. Personally, I'm willingly to overlook that one little detail and stick with my headcanon of "human reaper did it" since it explains more. This is the fault I get for thinking about this for too long, lol.

[Kabooooom]

Do we actually know that the nanites are a requirement for the reapers to reach the host? I thought that was just one method they used to indoctrinate (more like huskifiy). There have been a lot of cases of reaper indoctrination that didn't involve any nanities being injected. Its possible that the less subtle and more absolute nanite conversion is the only one that directly links them together but is it ever actually said to be the case or just just speculation? It's been a while since I've read the novel about this (the one with Grayson).

I remember in the Arrival dlc Kensen stopped hearing the reapers voices shortly after Shepard came in and ruined everything. Seems to me they were able to 'read her mind' just fine without her being injected with nanites.

I was under the assumption that TIM's use of nanites to control husks was just his only means of doing so, not that the reapers were limited to nanites or had no other methods themselves. Their indoctrination ability is derived, at least in part, from the Leviathans who just need you to be near a source. A trend we definitely see occurring repeatedly with reaper indoctrination, where people are indoctrinated by just being around reaper artifacts.

All that being said though if the Illusive Man was going to be indoctrinated at the very start I'd say in his case its more likely to be nanites. He wasn't just in presence of a reaper artifact, he was directly changed by it. What with the eyes and everything. If he WAS indoctrinated at that moment wouldn't it be more likely to be the nanite variation of indoctrination, since the effect was directly physical and left him with husk eyes? Though then they should have a connection to him, if that is indeed the only way they can interact with indoctrinated thralls. Yet his actions in ME2 seem to refute this possibility. I don't see why the reapers would be oblivious to so many of his actions if he was actually indoctrinated. Interesting and fun to think about, though.

Coincidentally I thought of one flaw in the "the human reaper did it" idea. If TIM and thus Cerberus was indoctrinated that earlier on then why would his 'improved' troopers be fighting reapers? Maybe its just as the game pretty much tells us in the story and he isn't actually indoctrinated until he goes planting all that reaper crap in his brain. Personally, I'm willingly to overlook that one little detail and stick with my headcanon of "human reaper did it" since it explains more. This is the fault I get for thinking about this for too long, lol.

I was going to state my opinion, but his post and yours basically covered the points I was going to make. Essentially,the nanites are definitely required for the sort of hardcore indoctrination (absolute slave, they know your thoughts and you are not in control of your actions) that Grayson experiences, which goes along with his huskification.

However, with indoctrination due to exposure to Reaper signals, it works in a much more subtle way. Thoughts are still all your own, but those that are in line with the Reaper plan are rewarded, and those that aren't are punished. It's essentially very elaborate classical conditioning. And, it seems to require proximity to Reaper tech to progress. Without progression, indoctrination is presumably static. You're probably unlikely to revert back to a normal state, but you also aren't exactly a useful pawn, either. I'm not sure, but without some sort of link to the mind, the Reapers probably wouldn't know TIM's thoughts...at least not until he used a piece of one for a doorstop.

[The Devlish Redhead]

What's funny is even if you destroy the collector base isn't that human reaper still in Cerberus at Cronos Station? 

 

Did it survive the explosion?, and did they use the IFF to get it?

[Valmar]

@Kaboom

 

I've always assumed the reapers could read your thoughts even without the hardcore nanite conversion, though, which is the argument I was ultimately trying to make. Remember the dead reaper where all the researchers were having the same memories? Unless they were entirely implanted and never their own in the first place. Which is a possibility. Anyway, I understand that there are variations of indoctrination and that it can be subtle, I don't disagree. Its just that I've been under the impression that indoctrination of any kind also makes your vulnerable for having your thoughts relayed to the reapers, not just make your susceptible to their will. I mean, they'd need to be able to sense your thoughts somehow if they're ever to concern which thoughts should be punished and which thoughts should be rewarded - right? Is it possible to do that without their being some form of thought-reading going on?

 

Remember the only thing I'm being skeptical about here is that TIM was indoctrinated prior to ME3. I agree there are many reasons to conclude that him putting a giant reaper embryo outside his office lead to him being indoctrinated. I want to call him foolish for that but I suppose its always easy to say these things in hindsight. Clearly not EVERYTHING reaper-related can cause indoctrination. The thing wasn't exactly finished and still being constructed. There's a lot of unknowns. Plus, since I save the collector base, I can't really judge him much for trying to make use of the stuff. Clearly I thought something good could come from it. Still... might had wanted to send that thing into the sun or something. Lol.

 

I will say though that my belief of him NOT being indoctrinated prior to ME3 has to do with my assumption that indoctrination, in all its forms, gives the reapers at least some insight on your thought processes. If I didn't think that way, I can definitely see him being indoctrinated from his first encounter, at least partially, as you say.

 

@Adelaide

 

Yes, he has it regardless. The difference is how much of it he has. I believe if you destroy it he has it in less pieces, the frame is damaged and you get the EMS score for having its 'heart'. If you save the base like I do* then he has the whole thing intact and you get more EMS for its 'brain'. I believe.

 

The only way to use the Omega 4 Relay safely is with an IFF so clearly they had to make some for their ships. EDI did send all the information over to Cerberus so it shouldn't be any surprise that they were able to replicate it. Regardless of how they did it, they definitely had bases and stuff set up on the otherside. This stuff was addressed in one of the comics and the Omega DLC. Cerberus definitely made use of that relay, beyond just grabbing the human reaper.

 

 

*Also, for the record, I save it regardless of how it turns out. Shepard had no way of knowing Cerberus was going to do a 180 and go nutty in ME3 and I still believe saving the base for study was the best choice. Even if I didn't really trust Cerberus with that knowledge. Kinda was expecting some choice to relay the data to the Alliance or something... hindsight is 20/20.

[Farangbaa]

I'd even save the base if I had to give it to Stalin or Hitler.

[SporkFu]

I have almost always destroyed the base; think I saved it twice, just to see the difference in the game. Otherwise, by the end of ME2 I'm usually of the attitude, "F**k TIM." Besides, Grunt approves of me destroying the base. That's good enough. 

[Valmar]

I have almost always destroyed the base; think I saved it twice, just to see the difference in the game. Otherwise, by the end of ME2 I'm usually of the attitude, "F**k TIM." Besides, Grunt approves of me destroying the base. That's good enough. 

 

You'd give up all that potential just to spite some guy who spent 4 billion credits just to bring you back from the dead? I'll admit that I'm bias because I actually have some respect and gratitude towards TIM in ME2 but damn. Thats more harsh then Shepard's ridiculous "I destroy this because humans died here" mindset. Btw, just for the record, the entire squad are a bunch of jackasses when it comes to this choice. Grunt actually encourages me to use it during the mission but reprimands you later.

 

"He's right. When the enemy gives you a weapon you use it." He has a personality change when you're back on the Normandy, for some reason.

 

I can't hold it against him though - about half the squad is for saving the base and argues for it during the conversation on the base. Yet EVERYONE after the mission is all like "oh noes Shepard I cant believe you did that how could you".  Pfft. I regret nothing. I didn't destroy the data on the genophage cure and I won't destroy the base. Same principle applies. Just because what went on there is ethically horrifying doesn't mean it should be purged. The  best we can do to honor the dead, imo, is to make sure their deaths were not meaningless. To ensure we gain something for it that helps save others. We can't change the fact that people died there but we can make those deaths worth something. Something other than being some reapers slushie. Yuck. Lol.

 

Also, for funs, heres a video of all the squads opinions on the base BEFORE you get to the normandy. Compare it to what they tell you after-the-fact. You might be surprised. The jackasses.