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[Farangbaa]

And if logic doesn't command you to save the base, the awful thing Shepard says should:

'I won't let fear compromise who I am'

Shepard, man, please.. shut up.

[Valmar]

To be fair I'm pretty sure you can save the base without having Shepard sound like a complete idiot. You have to humor the idea first rather than outright spitting at it. I believe the alternative destroy dialogue is something like "You're completely ruthless. Next thing you know you'll be trying to make a human reaper. We'll fight and win without it."

 

I'm not defending his stance but I do find it more agreeable then the whole "compromise" argument. Even if I don't agree with it at least choosing not to save it on the principle of not trusting it in Cerberus' hands is based on some semblance of rationality.

 

Man all this talk is making me wanna replay ME2. I don't know if I should be grateful because I love the game to pieces or if I should be annoyed because I already have such a huge backlog of games I need to finish first. Lol. First world problems.

[SporkFu]

You'd give up all that potential just to spite some guy who spent 4 billion credits just to bring you back from the dead? I'll admit that I'm bias because I actually have some respect and gratitude towards TIM in ME2 but damn. Thats more harsh then Shepard's ridiculous "I destroy this because humans died here" mindset. Btw, just for the record, the entire squad are a bunch of jackasses when it comes to this choice. Grunt actually encourages me to use it during the mission but reprimands you later.

 

"He's right. When the enemy gives you a weapon you use it." He has a personality change when you're back on the Normandy, for some reason.

 

I can't hold it against him though - about half the squad is for saving the base and argues for it during the conversation on the base. Yet EVERYONE after the mission is all like "oh noes Shepard I cant believe you did that how could you".  Pfft. I regret nothing. I didn't destroy the data on the genophage cure and I won't destroy the base. Same principle applies. Just because what went on there is ethically horrifying doesn't mean it should be purged. The  best we can do to honor the dead, imo, is to make sure their deaths were not meaningless. To ensure we gain something for it that helps save others. We can't change the fact that people died there but we can make those deaths worth something. Something other than being some reapers slushie. Yuck. Lol.

 

Also, for funs, heres a video of all the squads opinions on the base BEFORE you get to the normandy. Compare it to what they tell you after-the-fact. You might be surprised. The jackasses.

I don't remember the exact quote, but it's one of shep's first talks with Jacob, either on Lazarus Station or just before going to Freedom's Progress, and one dialogue option of shep's is (something like), "He brought me back to life. That's good enough for one chance."  

 

Also, I usually begin to distrust TIM's motives right around Horizon, when shep says TIM should call in the Alliance for backup, and TIM responds, "I don't want them getting in our way." If TIM was really all about saving human colonists from the collectors he might've at least tried to get some backup. 

[Display Name Owner]

To be fair I'm pretty sure you can save the base without having Shepard sound like a complete idiot. You have to humor the idea first rather than outright spitting at it. I believe the alternative destroy dialogue is something like "You're completely ruthless. Next thing you know you'll be trying to make a human reaper. We'll fight and win without it."

 

I'm not defending his stance but I do find it more agreeable then the whole "compromise" argument. Even if I don't agree with it at least choosing not to save it on the principle of not trusting it in Cerberus' hands is based on some semblance of rationality.

 

Man all this talk is making me wanna replay ME2. I don't know if I should be grateful because I love the game to pieces or if I should be annoyed because I already have such a huge backlog of games I need to finish first. Lol. First world problems.

 

IIRC that's just one of Shep's responses when TIM makes the proposition. If you choose to destroy it he still says "We'll fight and win without it. I won't let fear compromise who I am". As cool as it is finally getting the last word in a convo with TIM after destroying it, I can't help but feel that Shepard should be too embarrassed that he said that to walk away with that smirk afterwards. 

 

And then TIM gets what he needs to wreck everyone's day anyway. Poor Shep can't not look like a buffoon whatever he does with the Base. It might have helped if he didn't tapdance willingly into a cell instead of actually trying to deal with the situation in any way.

[JamesFaith]

@ Valmar, Kabooooom

 

You both misunderstand me. I don't claim that QE nanites are necessarily for indoctrination itself. It is problem of long-distance control.

 

Saren keep staying near Sovereign so he can be controlled by some telepathic bond.

Kenson was near huge Reaper artifact which served as relay of Reaper control signal. And we can assume that artifact was base on QE technology too because it allowed live comunnication with Harbinger in dark space.

Cerberus scientist were inside dead Reaper.

Leviathans, original indoctrinators, need their orbs.

And Grayson, only known human controlled from dark space, had QE nanites in his body.

 

 

But TIM wasn't nearby any Reaper tech serving as beacon and wasn't infected by QE nanites. His eyes are definitely different kind than Graysons artifact from simple reason - QE nanites are selfreplicating (Retribution), they would spread. Also QE technology was something new for scientist in Cerberus, just old concept abandoned in 21th century. If TIM have them in his eyes he would know because someone so paranoid as him have to checked is own violent transformation.

 

So TIM can be prepared for full indoctrination in FCW, he can be infected by some basic mind programming, but can't be reach because Reaper mind control have to be limited by range, in other case Sovereign wouldn't stick close to Saren and rather hide himself and act remotely.

 

And without direct control and checking TIM just tried to reach his basic goal (Reapers an be controlled) only by his own means which can be harmful in larger scale for Reapers, but Reapers haven't any means to reach him and told him. "Don't do this."

[Valmar]

I don't remember the exact quote, but it's one of shep's first talks with Jacob, either on Lazarus Station or just before going to Freedom's Progress, and one dialogue option of shep's is (something like), "He brought me back to life. That's good enough for one chance."  

 

Also, I usually begin to distrust TIM's motives right around Horizon, when shep says TIM should call in the Alliance for backup, and TIM responds, "I don't want them getting in our way." If TIM was really all about saving human colonists from the collectors he might've at least tried to get some backup. 

 

Maybe our difference in view stems from our different assumptions on his priorities. I've never seen him as really caring all about the colonist (though I don't think he gets a sick glee from it or something) and have always envisioned him as being more of a big-picture character who's ultimate goal is stopping the reapers. In that regard I can understand the reluctance to get the Alliance involved. This was like your one and only chance to catch the collectors off guard. Given how your ex-squadmate (virmire survival) treats you I can only imagine how a bunch of random Alliance brass would take to your presence. Especially when they apparently suspect Cerberus is behind the missing colonies. Would had probably meant a lot of good for the colonist though.

 

For better or for worst TIM has done more to combat the reapers then anyone else, at that time. He was the only one seemingly taking it seriously or putting his money where his mouth was, as it were. Hell in some weird way you could say that its only because of TIM and Cerberus that the reapers are ever defeated at all since they brought Shepard back from the dead. Though thats going into some domino-effect territory. Sorry, I'm going off topic. Though a lot of this has actually been off topic for a while, hasn't it? Oh well, its good conversation at anyrate.

 

 

 

IIRC that's just one of Shep's responses when TIM makes the proposition. If you choose to destroy it he still says "We'll fight and win without it. I won't let fear compromise who I am". As cool as it is finally getting the last word in a convo with TIM after destroying it, I can't help but feel that Shepard should be too embarrassed that he said that to walk away with that smirk afterwards. 

 

Possible. Its been a while since I played it and even longer since I destroyed the base. I really do remember there being a none pansy version though. Though if you say there isn't I'm inclined to agree simply since I'm not 100% and my memory isn't the greatest. I'll definitely have to play through ME2 again sometime soon.

 

 

 

But TIM wasn't nearby any Reaper tech serving as beacon and wasn't infected by QE nanites. His eyes are definitely different kind than Graysons artifact from simple reason - QE nanites are selfreplicating (Retribution), they would spread. Also QE technology was something new for scientist in Cerberus, just old concept abandoned in 21th century. If TIM have them in his eyes he would know because someone so paranoid as him have to checked is own violent transformation.

 

So TIM can be prepared for full indoctrination in FCW, he can be infected by some basic mind programming, but can't be reach because Reaper mind control have to be limited by range, in other case Sovereign wouldn't stick close to Saren and rather hide himself and act remotely.

 

And without direct control and checking TIM just tried to reach his basic goal (Reapers an be controlled) only by his own means which can be harmful in larger scale for Reapers, but Reapers haven't any means to reach him and told him. "Don't do this."

 

I didn't factor into it the self-replicating nature of the nanites. Mainly because I wasn't aware of it, honestly. I haven't really went into the other medias other than the games since their initial release. Thats my excuse, anyway. It is also true that there is always a relatively nearby object that causes the indoctrination, something TIM would be away from. I did misunderstand your earlier statement and overlooked its argument of distance. I'm sorry.

 

I suppose I was thinking of the argument being nanites are the method of transmitting thoughts and completely overlooking the distance factor. I wasn't aware of a limited factor in the distance in terms of them having any influence or insight. I figured that once they got you, they got you. I viewed the nanites as more of a method to ensure they can control you from greater distances (such as from darkspace) and overlooked the range perks, in general.

 

Again, I figured once they had they they could always 'read you' or whatever it is they do and the nanites were just a way to actually take you over and control you from long distances. I didn't consider EVERYTHING being limited by distance. However distance being a limiting factor to non-nanited thralls seems consistent when you factor in Rana and TIM who were both potentially indoctrinated earlier but don't show the signs of being controlled until ME3 when the reapers are everywhere. 

 

Though what of the dead reaper Cerberus is studying? it's dead but it still clearly holds the ability to indoctrinate. That alone could give it the ability to act as a repeater to allow them to get in his head. There's also the Leviathan of Dis. Two reapers oddly left behind from the last cycle. Them acting as enthrallment or relay points would explain their existence some.

 

Though at this point I'm just using speculation to counter what seems to be a fair and reasonable argument. So, with the new insight, I'm going to have to agree. He was indoctrinated form the start. Or at least, you've made the argument come together well enough to fit nicely, at least. Interesting. I was hoping something could explain away my misgivings of the idea since I did want it to work. It feels more natural this way. I just had to be shown a good reason to explain away the ME2 business. The distance is enough for me.

 

That was a fun discussion. Coincidentally I'm sorry, Kaboom, if what James brought up is what you were trying to explain to me all along. I can be pretty dense sometimes. Lol.