76 réponses à ce sujet

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

ME1 - The Normandy SR-1 Bad Asses

ME2 - The Normandy SR-2 Daddy Issues

ME3 - The Normandy SR-2 Sacrifices

[SwobyJ]

.....Ow that hurt my brain. When you broadcast data, that doesn't delete the data at the source. You send a copy of the data to everything that can catch the data and then they make a local copy of the data. If you move files from one computer to another, you are making a copy of the files onto the second computer and then deleting the files from the first. So when he "disseminates" himself, he is sending a copy and then deleting himself from his platform.

 

There is no reason why the copy made when he deletes himself should work any differently than the one when he doesn't delete himself. Well unless he is deleting himself as he sends the data....in which case there exists the possibility that some of the data being deleted could change his personality (oops there went the bit of code giving him the bravery to face death, he's shutting the whole thing down now) or just the basic functionality of the platform (whoops there went the interface for transmitting data) thereby messing up the transfer.

 

The fact that it is mystical reaper code, does not change the fact that it is just data and therefore should behave like data.

 

It is not 'just' data. It is life. There's a reason why other AI had occurrences of reverence for Reapers. They are apex and even beyond other synthetics' understanding. That's hard to grasp from our human/Shepard viewpoint, but that's how the writing works IMO.

 

Legion giving himself up for dissemination is akin to Shepard putting himself into Control, just with two differences:

1)Shepard keeps his identity, but changes the format of it

3)The process that Legion undergoes is more unknown, because even IRL we're barely contemplated the concept of an AI (not even transhuman, but AI) becoming fully 'postsynthetic'.

 

In seeing Legion disseminate, we can slightly understand how Synthesis is happening. But no, I don't think its supposed to be very understandable. All of it is to have that 'leap of faith' quality to it, in order to provide a perceived 'downside' to choosing it (at least with destroying/killing things, you know what you got done).

 

It may be hard to accept this (it is for me), but an upgraded Geth is supposed to be an individualized synthetic. And like any individual, you can't tear them apart without ruining what was there. Could Legion technically be reformed by some future Control/Synthesis galaxy? Maybe, but until then, he had to tear himself apart (sacrifice) in order to achieve his goal.

 

A dissemination in this way isn't a copy (which yes, is how Geth normally would operate for this), but an actual movement. The integrity of the Reaper-Geth code does not allow for transferrence, like a human mind may never be able to undergo something like that by itself. Its too unified. It is practically hardware, while also being software, is what I'm saying.

 

And no, we have no precident for it IRL. We just have sci-fi ideas. That eventually we'll have a program so advanced that it can't actually be broken down into 1s and 0s, but has to be recognized as its own life, but also a life that goes beyond organic constraints in unknown ways.

 

Whatever confusion we're feeling about the Reaper upgrade situation, is likely intentionally there to an extent. It may be meant to be amazing, annoying, baffling, and beautiful, depending on POV. Very little of the MEU is advanced enough to actually understand what it is and what it means. You'll just have to take a chance.

 

"Error. Direct personality dissemination required." Alrighty then. Lets do it.

 

 

Of course this all comes to the eventual point that ME3 kinda clumsily made - that everything is data and everything is life and everything plays a role in the fabric of reality that we can barely start to understand. But yeah.

Summary: No, Legion couldn't just copy himself because the nature of his existence wouldn't let him at that point, just as a human couldn't spread all of his mind throughout a computer/s without killing the host brain. He was the most alive like an organic at that point.

[themikefest]

I just choose the Quarians and not worry about it. Besides that, in most of my playthroughs, I give it to Cerberus.

[Mrs_Stick]

I just choose the Quarians and not worry about it. Besides that, in most of my playthroughs, I give it to Cerberus.

You are so Renegade I love it =)

[Antmarch456]

Whatever the reason is, we will all remember his sacrifice.

Also, wouldn't saving the quarians be PARAGON, not RENEGADE?

[The Devlish Redhead]

Screw the quarians..... Even if I did choose a way to broker peace.....

 

On my first play through I chose Geth over Quarians

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Screw the quarians..... Even if I did choose a way to broker peace.....

 

On my first play through I chose Geth over Quarians

 

Some friend you are. Without Tali, the entire galaxy would have been reaped three years earlier.

[SporkFu]

Some friend you are. Without Tali, the entire galaxy would have been reaped three years earlier.

Just imagine... a quarian with a cision pro toothbrush would be unstoppable. 

[The Devlish Redhead]

OMG you guys

 

Now I have visions of Quarians with Oral B toothbrushes taking over the universe hehe.........

[The Devlish Redhead]

Come on Harby it's time to brush your teeth...........

[von uber]

Screw the quarians..... Even if I did choose a way to broker peace.....

On my first play through I chose Geth over Quarians

You monster!

[Excella Gionne]

You monster!

Behind that mask, I don't who's a monster anymore.

[SporkFu]

Behind that mask, I don't who's a monster anymore.

I thought it was just another mask

[DeinonSlayer]

Great, now I've got this mental image of Tali fruitlessly poking at her visor with a toothbrush. Thanks, guys.

[Excella Gionne]

I thought it was just another mask

I can't tell the masks from the quarians.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Great, now I've got this mental image of Tali fruitlessly poking at her visor with a toothbrush. Thanks, guys.

 

She has to use a large emergency induction port and New Crest Tartar Control D-Toothpaste with Bact-Away.

[Kenshen]

It had a soul and that wasn't something that could be copied.  It uploaded itself and shared that soul with the rest of the Geth very noble imo.  Not many humans are willing to go to such a degree for their fellow mankind.

[ImaginaryMatter]

It had a soul and that wasn't something that could be copied.  It uploaded itself and shared that soul with the rest of the Geth very noble imo.  Not many humans are willing to go to such a degree for their fellow mankind.

 

Souls can't be copied but they can be uploaded and shared?

[StarcloudSWG]

Weekes is responsible for writing Rannoch, not Walters. Not that I think what L'Etoille wrote was any better, to me it's the same Pinocchio crap, just different style. (I'd be glad if both of them wouldn't write for ME anymore, don't care for Walters)

 

And Legion "died" for the same reason Mordin died on Tuchanka or Thane died protecting the Salarian counselor or Shepard died at the end. To become the great symbol of sacrifice (almost as overused as the daddy issues). They needed this to happen, so they came up with some explanation whether it makes sence or not.

 

Right, Legion died for story reasons/writer's fiat.

 

Weekes certainly wrote Rannoch, under Mac Walter's direction. Chris L'Etoile wrote the ME Codex, and both EDI and Legion in ME 2. 

 

Do you know why Legion says "No data available" when pressed about why he's wearing Shepard's old N7 armor? It's because Mac Walters was in charge of character writing in ME 2, and Mac hated the way Chris was writing Legion as a collective intelligence that was opposed to becoming individual, and that Chris was writing Legion with a minimum of emotion.

 

Mac wanted Legion to start developing emotion 'because that's the sign the geth are becoming more human.'

Whereas Chris was vehemently opposed to that. He wanted the geth to be *different* from human. A different take on sapience that didn't require emotion. When Chris was forced to put that interaction in the game, he wrote it 'no data available' because he couldn't write "Mac Walters wants Legion to have emotions."

 

So when Mac was given the lead writer/lead designer role in ME 3, and with Chris *having left Bioware* before ME 3 development started, Mac promptly put EDI into a sexbot body and put her on the path to developing emotions, and put the Geth into the position of wanting to become fully 'human'. Again, with emotions and individuality.

 

Mac Walters loves the Pinocchio complex. Chris E'toile was not writing a Pinocchio Complex character.

[Kenshen]

Souls can't be copied but they can be uploaded and shared?

 

Apparently so or whatever it did worked.

[RatThing]

Right, Legion died for story reasons/writer's fiat.

 

Weekes certainly wrote Rannoch, under Mac Walter's direction. Chris E'toile wrote the ME Codex, and both EDI and Legion in ME 2. 

 

Do you know why Legion says "No data available" when pressed about why he's wearing Shepard's old N7 armor? It's because Mac Walters was in charge of character writing in ME 2, and Mac hated the way Chris was writing Legion as a collective intelligence that was opposed to becoming individual, and that Chris was writing Legion with a minimum of emotion.

 

Mac wanted Legion to start developing emotion 'because that's the sign the geth are becoming more human.'

Whereas Chris was vehemently opposed to that. He wanted the geth to be *different* from human. A different take on sapience that didn't require emotion. When Chris was forced to put that interaction in the game, he wrote it 'no data available' because he couldn't write "Mac Walters wants Legion to have emotions."

 

So when Mac was given the lead writer/lead designer role in ME 3, and with Chris *having left Bioware* before ME 3 development started, Mac promptly put EDI into a sexbot body and put her on the path to developing emotions, and put the Geth into the position of wanting to become fully 'human'. Again, with emotions and individuality.

 

Mac Walters loves the Pinocchio complex. Chris E'toile was not writing a Pinocchio Complex character.

 

I am aware that L'Etoille wrote the Geth not wanting to be human but he sure wanted me to see them the same way. He brought racism into the story, compared AI treatment to slavery, called the programs that control them shackles, Edi described itself as a crewmember (that's on him for sure). You were supposed to apply the same standards on AI as on humans. If you reject that, you were the evil renegade. That's why to me it's the same Pinocchio crap. No matter how the AI described itself, you were pushed into seeing it as a "real boy" just different form the other "real boys". I don't want that kind of writing back either.

[Kurt M.]

Souls can't be copied but they can be uploaded and shared?

 

Apparently souls are Torrents now

[Jorji Costava]

I am aware that L'Etoille wrote the Geth not wanting to be human but he sure wanted me to see them the same way. He brought racism into the story, compared AI treatment to slavery, called the programs that control them shackles, Edi described itself as a crewmember (that's on him for sure). You were supposed to apply the same standards on AI as on humans. If you reject that, you were the evil renegade. That's why to me it's the same Pinocchio crap. No matter how the AI described itself, you were pushed into seeing it as a "real boy" just different form the other "real boys". I don't want that kind of writing back either.

 

I think there's a subtle equivocation going on here. The term "human" can sometimes be used in reference to the idea of having dignity or being deserving of respect and moral concern (for instance, when we say that an act is "inhumane," this is what we're talking about). Then there's human in the 'cultural' or 'species' sense of the term, where being human is a matter of having human-like emotions, behaviors, responses, etc. The whole point of the way Chris was writing the Geth was that those two concepts can come apart: In other words, a being or group of beings can have dignity and be deserving of moral concern even if they don't behave or act anything like us.

 

In a lot of ways, this is similar to the idea that a person can be culturally different from you and yet still deserving of respect. That is what I took the point of the Geth arc to be; it was ME's scifi take on the whole idea of cultural difference, and it is this element of that arc that the Pinocchio story leaves out, instead replacing it with the self-congratulatory assurance that an existence like that of the typical human is the better one to have.

[RatThing]

I think there's a subtle equivocation going on here. The term "human" can sometimes be used in reference to the idea of having dignity or being deserving of respect and moral concern (for instance, when we say that an act is "inhumane," this is what we're talking about). Then there's human in the 'cultural' or 'species' sense of the term, where being human is a matter of having human-like emotions, behaviors, responses, etc. The whole point of the way Chris was writing the Geth was that those two concepts can come apart: In other words, a being or group of beings can have dignity and be deserving of moral concern even if they don't behave or act anything like us.

 

In a lot of ways, this is similar to the idea that a person can be culturally different from you and yet still deserving of respect. That is what I took the point of the Geth arc to be; it was ME's scifi take on the whole idea of cultural difference, and it is this element of that arc that the Pinocchio story leaves out, instead replacing it with the self-congratulatory assurance that an existence like that of the typical human is the better one to have.

 

Racism and slavery, and the rejection of those are concepts of the human society and so far only apply to human. We don't use those words on the treatment of animals for example even though some of us say it's inhumane. When he uses those words for this topic he does compare AI to humans and brings them on the same level. And how much dignity and moral concern I give something that's nothing more than an advanced computer program to me is for me to decide. I will not take moral lessons on this, not from L'Etoille, Weekes or anyone else.