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Why did Legion commit suicide?


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#51
ImaginaryMatter

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Racism and slavery, and the rejection of those are concepts of the human society and so far only apply to human. We don't use those words on the treatment of animals for example even though some of us say it's inhumane. When he uses those words for this topic he does compare AI to humans and brings them on the same level. And how much dignity and moral concern I give something that's nothing more than an advanced computer program to me is for me to decide. I will not take moral lessons on this, not from L'Etoille, Weekes or anyone else.

 

AI have sentience/sapience, while animals don't. Also, Mass Effect doesn't take place in current society, it takes place in the future with aliens and robots where the traditional anthropocentric concepts of what these terms mean may be challenged or even not exist.

 

AIs may be advanced computer programs but are organics really any different? We're basically a swirl of chemical compounds and electrical signals.


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#52
teh DRUMPf!!

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Right, Legion died for story reasons/writer's fiat.

 

Weekes certainly wrote Rannoch, under Mac Walter's direction. Chris E'toile wrote the ME Codex, and both EDI and Legion in ME 2. 

 

Do you know why Legion says "No data available" when pressed about why he's wearing Shepard's old N7 armor? It's because Mac Walters was in charge of character writing in ME 2, and Mac hated the way Chris was writing Legion as a collective intelligence that was opposed to becoming individual, and that Chris was writing Legion with a minimum of emotion.

 

Mac wanted Legion to start developing emotion 'because that's the sign the geth are becoming more human.'

Whereas Chris was vehemently opposed to that. He wanted the geth to be *different* from human. A different take on sapience that didn't require emotion. When Chris was forced to put that interaction in the game, he wrote it 'no data available' because he couldn't write "Mac Walters wants Legion to have emotions."

 

So when Mac was given the lead writer/lead designer role in ME 3, and with Chris *having left Bioware* before ME 3 development started, Mac promptly put EDI into a sexbot body and put her on the path to developing emotions, and put the Geth into the position of wanting to become fully 'human'. Again, with emotions and individuality.

 

Mac Walters loves the Pinocchio complex. Chris E'toile was not writing a Pinocchio Complex character.

 

Wow, that's a lot of postulation with blatant hero/villain syndrome being passed off for facts.



#53
RatThing

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AI have sentience/sapience, while animals don't. Also, Mass Effect doesn't take place in current society, it takes place in the future with aliens and robots where the traditional anthropocentric concepts of what these terms mean may be challenged or even not exist.

 

AIs may be advanced computer programs but are organics really any different? We're basically a swirl of chemical compounds and electrical signals.

 

Animals certainly have sentiense as they feel, have emotions and suffer pain. Some also show singns of sapience. And how society develops 200 years from now is unclear. It is not for L'Etoille to decide. 

As for the last part, I have a different idea of life, one that's accord with Javiks (We are shaped by the forces around us, you are immune to these forces). Don't want to discuss this any further, I leave it at that, (I'm off to work now anyways).



#54
Fayfel

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Wow, that's a lot of postulation with blatant hero/villain syndrome being passed off for facts.

 

There's a good amount of truth to it though. Chris was pressured or told to write Legion a certain way. When he wrote "no data available" it was because he was in damage control mode. He even wrote a semi-plausible explanation for it. Unfortunately it was cut because he wrote too much ( the original Legion/Tali confrontation ).

 

However, while I'm no fan of Walter's writing, I don't think he can be blamed entirely for the destruction of the geth in 3. I got the impression from L'Etoile's posts that Casey Hudson was the one pushing the emotion business. Weekes didn't seem to have a strong grasp of the issues either. It's not so clear cut.

 

Animals certainly have sentiense as they feel, have emotions and suffer pain. Some also show singns of sapience. And how society develops 200 years from now is unclear. It is not for L'Etoille to decide. 

 
There are two different kinds of AI in the MEU, top-down models and bottom-up models. EDI represents a top-down system deliberately designed by organics to achieve consciousness. Within the MEU these types of AI are commonly considered to be sapient.
 
The geth on the other hand are bottom-up models. They were never intended to become conscious or sapient by organics. L'Etoile certainly intended for them to be both. His job was to create the MEU. Insofar as I'm concerned it was his decision to make. However, your well within your right to disagree.
 
It should be pointed out that the geth never considered themselves to be slaves in the same sense that humans have. Geth choose to serve the quarians. The quarians were racist in that sense. They couldn't accept that geth would come to that conclusion because the quarians would have refused to serve had their positions been reversed. It's the basis for why geth don't understand organics. Sadly most players are as confused as the geth are. They never tell ME2 Legion to give back the quarian homeworld. They never ask it's opinion on doing dangerous work for the quarians. They don't listen to Legion's answer when they ask if peace is possible. They reject it's reality and substitute their own.
 
Side note! You all hurt Chris when you capitalize races incorrectly. The only ones that get the capital letter treatment are the Protheans and the Reapers. His name is also spelled L'Etoile. However, I don't think that bothers him nearly as much as the race capitalization :)

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#55
The Devlish Redhead

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AIs may be advanced computer programs but are organics really any different? We're basically a swirl of chemical compounds and electrical signals.

 

To quote a Neil Young song.

 

"chemical computer, thinking battery" used to describe the human brain



#56
Sir DeLoria

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Well, it didn't commit suicide in my playthrough...

maxresdefault.jpg

Hehehe...
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#57
Obadiah

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The way I explain Legion's suicide is that it had to generate so much power to broadcast the upgrades to the Geth, that it burned out its local hardware platform and effectively destroyed it, which destroyed the Legion personality because that only existed when the s/w runtimes were run on that platform.

The s/w backups and memories can be downloaded to another platform, but it wouldn't be the same personality, or the personality would be reset, thus Legion is dead.

#58
DeinonSlayer

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Well, it didn't commit suicide in my playthrough...

*snip*

Hehehe...



Classic...

#59
The Devlish Redhead

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ME1 - The Normandy SR-1 Bad Asses

ME2 - The Normandy SR-2 Daddy Issues

ME3 - The Normandy SR-2 Sacrifices

 

And in ME3 the Alliance ripped out all the comfy stuff Cerberus put inside the Normandy and kind of trashed it. IMHO



#60
Bardox9

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In my cannon, Legion did download into the rest of the Geth. I don't see that as suicide. It spread through out the Geth consensus and became part of every Geth. Legion was not a single Geth, but (I think) a platform filled with one thousand individual Geth programs. Each with it's own intelligence. Together they became Legion. I see the download not as a suicide, but as an evolution.



#61
Kenshen

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And in ME3 the Alliance ripped out all the comfy stuff Cerberus put inside the Normandy and kind of trashed it. IMHO

 

I was ok with it until I found the force field thing coming out of the war room.  Hate it a whole bunch.



#62
SilJeff

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It's not like they were finished with the retrofits when the war started

#63
The Devlish Redhead

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It's not like they were finished with the retrofits when the war started

 

wasn't there like 2 years or more between ME 2 and 3? The ship was functional and in good shape what did they have to change?



#64
SporkFu

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wasn't there like 2 years or more between ME 2 and 3? The ship was functional and in good shape what did they have to change?

Roughly six months between blowing up the alpha relay and the reaper invasion, and roughly two years between shep getting spaced and waking up on Lazarus Station.



#65
The Devlish Redhead

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Roughly six months between blowing up the alpha relay and the reaper invasion, and roughly two years between shep getting spaced and waking up on Lazarus Station.

 

Ah.......

 

So how much time was shep spending in the clink?  Didn't he/she get jailed for blowing up the Battarian Relay?

BTW what happens on that mission if you warn them?



#66
fyz306903

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The fact that Legion died is really annoying enough to me, as he has my favourite squad mate-character and he the reason he had to die was obviously just made up on the spot. I know Thane was dying from Kepral's syndrome, anyway, but I really can't see any reason why Mordin and Legion could have joined your squad.I think they were killed off just so they had less writing to do. Also, I find the fact that Legion gets no mention whatsoever in the Citadel DLC really annoying, he should have at least have had some audio tapes like Mordin did. 



#67
SporkFu

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Ah.......

 

So how much time was shep spending in the clink?  Didn't he/she get jailed for blowing up the Battarian Relay?

BTW what happens on that mission if you warn them?

shep spends those six months under house arrest at Alliance HQ; radio silence, no mail, no outside contact. Several the old crew that you meet up with in ME3 say variations of, "well I wanted to come see you/tried to come see you/was too dangerous to come see you/sent messages that never got through." .... Nothing changes with the alpha relay mission if you try to warn the batarians except a dialogue line here or there.



#68
The Devlish Redhead

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shep spends those six months under house arrest at Alliance HQ; radio silence, no mail, no outside contact. Several the old crew that you meet up with in ME3 say variations of, "well I wanted to come see you/tried to come see you/was too dangerous to come see you/sent messages that never got through." .... Nothing changes with the alpha relay mission if you try to warn the batarians except a dialogue line here or there.

Oh ok thanks for that..... I just wondered thinking if there was a difference if you warn the Battarians.


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#69
KaiserShep

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The fact that Legion died is really annoying enough to me, as he has my favourite squad mate-character and he the reason he had to die was obviously just made up on the spot. I know Thane was dying from Kepral's syndrome, anyway, but I really can't see any reason why Mordin and Legion could have joined your squad.I think they were killed off just so they had less writing to do. Also, I find the fact that Legion gets no mention whatsoever in the Citadel DLC really annoying, he should have at least have had some audio tapes like Mordin did. 

 

I agree that Legion's death was pretty out of nowhere and arbitrary, but I think that it makes sense that Mordin would consider himself more useful working on the Crucible, provided he survives. Also, he was trying to be discrete so that the deception of the krogan works, albeit unsuccessful if Wrex is in charge.



#70
fyz306903

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I agree that Legion's death was pretty out of nowhere and arbitrary, but I think that it makes sense that Mordin would consider himself more useful working on the Crucible, provided he survives. Also, he was trying to be discrete so that the deception of the krogan works, albeit unsuccessful if Wrex is in charge.

i still think there should have been a small chance of mordin surviving when trying to cure the genophage



#71
KaiserShep

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Eh, if he can live curing the genophage, then there's not much point to having a second outcome for the same choice. Besides, why would the circumstances change for the same exact route?



#72
fhs33721

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ME1 - The Normandy SR-1 Bad Asses

ME2 - The Normandy SR-2 Daddy Issues

ME3 - The Normandy SR-2 Sacrifices

More like:

ME1 - The Normandy SR-1 Family Issues

ME2 - The Normandy SR-2 specefies in Daddy Issues

ME3 - The Normandy SR-2 Sacrifices



#73
Arcian

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He saw the endings. That's why he chose to delete himself from this reality.


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#74
Linkenski

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John said at a panel that Mac was the one who suggested that in order to sabotage the Genophage you had to shoot Mordin and otherwise I got the impression that Mac didn't have anything to do with that. He was probably also the guy who came to Chris Hepler or Patrick and said "In order to upload the Geth code, what if Legion had to die?", just like it IS Mac who decided "In order to just kill the Reapers for good, you have to also kill all other Synthetics". He also decided that to save all the council members you have to kill Udina.

 

Mac is the master of hamfisted sacrifices in storytelling. He doesn't give two shits about Mass Effect. He just likes having a job where he gets paid to come up with his BS.


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#75
themikefest

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More like:

ME1 - The Normandy SR-1 Family Issues

ME2 - The Normandy SR-2 specefies in Daddy Issues

ME3 - The Normandy SR-2 Sacrifices

 

ME1 - family problems

ME2 - Can you hold my hand until daddy is fixed?

ME3 - unnecessary sacrifices