105 réponses à ce sujet

[Marksmad is waving goodbye]

 

Edit: just thought, do you ever turn ascension mode on? Given how buggy other time limited powers can be off host (Annihilation field, tactical cloak etc) it wouldn't surprise me if the damage penalty of ascension mode sometimes stayed on.

 

Hmmm. I try not to turn on Ascension Mode because of the reduced DR but maybe I do it unintentionally. I don't even try to hide the Missile Launcher on this kit because of that.

 

Also to those of you suggesting how to play (or L2P), thanks, I've done a lot of research and have tried many different builds. The only thing I need to understand is whether I'm the only one who finds it going down as fast as a Drell after too much Ryncol, when it seems like it should be able to stay on its feet longer than that.

[q5tyhj]

1. Do you use the seeker swarms offensively? To detonate BEs?

2. Do you run a no-fitness build?

 

If your answer to both is yes, the awakened collector is not tanky for most part of a game, because you won't have all 4 swarms around you most of the times (and you have no fitness points). So, in that case, he is the same as a base human character in terms of tankiness.

 

If your answer to either of them is no, then I guess you are pushing the limits of the character's durability. May be you are over-estimating the durability of the character? - the ACA is tanky but is comparable to human sentinel in terms of durability (depending on the build, one or the other gets the edge).

As for the krogan vs. ACA comparison, note that all krogans have some DR mechanism and can gain additional DR from rage. 

 

This. If you use swarms offensively you rarely have all 4 active- so you're always running less than the 40% max DR. If you're using the ascension stance, then you've got the extra damage taken. And we gotta keep things in perspective here- he's tanky for an adept... meaning, he's more durable than vanilla humans, asari, and drell. While that's saying something, its not saying a whole lot. He's not in the neighborhood of a Krogan- he has about half the health of a Krogan, and less DR- or even a Batarian. I suspect part of the problem is that people think of him as tanky, and play him somewhat accordingly- and if you play him as if he were a tanky class, he's going to die. ALOT. If, on the other hand, you play him like a normal adept, you'll likely find him highly durable, relative to most of the other adepts. 

[capn233]

It is because of the slow acceleration and middling speed, as well as goofy dodge.  You can't avoid fire quite as easily as some characters, especially some lower shield characters who are much better in initial acceleration.

 

Krogan nearly all have higher shields and DR all the time compared to the ACA unless you run some crazy build on them.  Battlemaster can stack Barrier, post charge DR, Rage and heavy melee to take no damage in some windows.

 

ACA compares somewhat favorably to Turian Sentinel in DR if you are comparing apples to apples (some Turian build with below max shields and only 40% DR).  A 46664 TS has more shields than a 4 Fitness, 4 Swarm ACA.

[Deerber]

I don't even know what tanky means XD

[N7 Banshee Bait]

I'd like to know why the N7 Shadow is broken & why they never bothered to fix her. Full fitness + shield booster level V + any Cyclonic Modulator has no effect whatsoever. Pretty much 1 shot from ANYTHING will take her shields down & put her health right next to death. If you can't take cover immediately you're screwed. Even on bronze & silver she's weak as hell. She's so weak that she's just not much fun to play with. Don't get me wrong, I know how to use her & I can kick ass with her on gold & platinum. She's just not fun to use because she has no shields & health. I'd just rather play with other kits. The Shadow is one of my favorite characters unfortunately she has always been totally broken!

[J. Peterman]

I'd like to know why the N7 Shadow is broken & why they never bothered to fix her. Full fitness + shield booster level V + any Cyclonic Modulator has no effect whatsoever. Pretty much 1 shot from ANYTHING will take her shields down & put her health right next to death. If you can't take cover immediately you're screwed. Even on bronze & silver she's weak as hell. She's so weak that she's just not much fun to play with. Don't get me wrong, I know how to use her & I can kick ass with her on gold & platinum. She's just not fun to use because she has no shields & health. I'd just rather play with other kits. The Shadow is one of my favorite characters unfortunately she has always been totally broken!

 

Huh??!!?

[Marksmad is waving goodbye]

This. If you use swarms offensively you rarely have all 4 active- so you're always running less than the 40% max DR. If you're using the ascension stance, then you've got the extra damage taken. And we gotta keep things in perspective here- he's tanky for an adept... meaning, he's more durable than vanilla humans, asari, and drell. While that's saying something, its not saying a whole lot. He's not in the neighborhood of a Krogan- he has about half the health of a Krogan, and less DR- or even a Batarian. I suspect part of the problem is that people think of him as tanky, and play him somewhat accordingly- and if you play him as if he were a tanky class, he's going to die. ALOT. If, on the other hand, you play him like a normal adept, you'll likely find him highly durable, relative to most of the other adepts. 

 

While I appreciate the sense of what you say, my experience is that the ACA is actually more fragile (by which I mean, faster to go down) than, say, the Phoenix Adept or the Justicar, both of which seem more fragile on paper. The ACA gets one-hit downed more often when I play it than the others I mention.

 

It is because of the slow acceleration and middling speed, as well as goofy dodge.  You can't avoid fire quite as easily as some characters, especially some lower shield characters who are much better in initial acceleration.

 

Krogan nearly all have higher shields and DR all the time compared to the ACA unless you run some crazy build on them.  Battlemaster can stack Barrier, post charge DR, Rage and heavy melee to take no damage in some windows.

 

ACA compares somewhat favorably to Turian Sentinel in DR if you are comparing apples to apples (some Turian build with below max shields and only 40% DR).  A 46664 TS has more shields than a 4 Fitness, 4 Swarm ACA.

 

I suspect that you may be onto something with the movement speed thing. I tried playing the ACA today using Adrenaline Mods and I seemed to spend less time going down.

 

I have also tried a build without Seeker Swarms and it seems to me that he/she/it is less fragile without  the SS DR. Which makes no sense, unless the SS DR is bugged out, which I'm not ruling out at this time.

[PurpGuy1]

Here's my ACA

 

Dark Channel/Seeker Swarms both at max for Biotic Explosions, also DR perk.  Full power damage from passives, armor, and weapon mod.  4/4 split with Dark Sphere and Fitness because Dark Sphere evolutions past Rank 4 either suck or are broken, or both.

 

Throw Sphere, Dark Channel, (Sphere reaches target) Swarm BE, Asplode Sphere, Swarm BE.  Also some shooting with Warp Ammo CSMG too.  Even with full power build this totally melts Platinum armored targets.

 

With 1050 Shields you're past the recommended 990 threshold without any DR at all.

[akots1]

IMO squishiness is more a function of a frame rate and cpu/gpu GHz (and lag) than anything else with experience/skill also contributing. At 60 fps everything feels quite squishy to me and at 90 fps, everything dies instantly in my scrubby hands although I don't notice the difference in 60 vs 90 Hz display.

 

Collector adept might be quite tanky with full fitness, 4 swarms and cyclonics 4. He's the only character I soloed platinum with and actually extracted.

[capn233]

I have also tried a build without Seeker Swarms and it seems to me that he/she/it is less fragile without  the SS DR. Which makes no sense, unless the SS DR is bugged out, which I'm not ruling out at this time.

 

Run a build with max fitness (durability) and max SS (DR / Count) and then compare it in the same game with none summoned and then summoned.  It will not be more durable without the swarms summoned.

[eighteighty]

Quarian Marksman is great example, as well. That has to do with his close-quarter issues, and general lack of damage reduction/croud control/defensive powers.

This.  I cannot keep this guy alive.  

[q5tyhj]

While I appreciate the sense of what you say, my experience is that the ACA is actually more fragile (by which I mean, faster to go down) than, say, the Phoenix Adept or the Justicar, both of which seem more fragile on paper. The ACA gets one-hit downed more often when I play it than the others I mention.

I'm sort of stumped then, since my experience with the Phoenix (which is admittedly small) is the exact opposite- I go down way more with him than the collector. And the Justicar is about a push in my experience- very similar health/barriers, and both of them with DR that is not always active (having used your swarms, not having an enemy reaved).

[Deerber]

While I appreciate the sense of what you say, my experience is that the ACA is actually more fragile (by which I mean, faster to go down) than, say, the Phoenix Adept or the Justicar, both of which seem more fragile on paper. The ACA gets one-hit downed more often when I play it than the others I mention.


I suspect that you may be onto something with the movement speed thing. I tried playing the ACA today using Adrenaline Mods and I seemed to spend less time going down.

I have also tried a build without Seeker Swarms and it seems to me that he/she/it is less fragile without the SS DR. Which makes no sense, unless the SS DR is bugged out, which I'm not ruling out at this time.

Peddro and co tested the reckoning characters quite through, I'm sure they'd have found that out, so I'm pretty sure it's not bugged

What Capn said actually makes perfect sense. Each race has hidden attributes regarding their speed in general and, more importantly, their acceleration, which one inevitably fails to account for when thinking about how survivable a kit is/should be.

And yet, given how much damage the enemies cause on gold+, and how enemy accuracy works in this game, when it comes to make a kit more survivable the amount of shields and health gets actually trampled by the ability to reach soft cover faster and in a more reliable way.

Which explains, for example, how can Drell be very survivable kits when played the right way, much more than, say, a Krogan Soldier, which in theory has a helluva lot more shields/health. And yet, with the enemies being able to down them in fractions of a second, and with their accuracy reaching 100% after you spend too much time in LoS... Those shields won't help much

This. I cannot keep this guy alive.

Move. Relocate more. That's all there is to it... Relocate to the next soft cover place, and if you find yourself going down a lot it usually means you need to start relocating sooner.

[eighteighty]

Move. Relocate more. That's all there is to it... Relocate to the next soft cover place, and if you find yourself going down a lot it usually means you need to start relocating sooner.

I've been using the Harrier with him with rate of fire increase.  The damage output is ridiculous but I always seem to want to wait around for that extra second to drop a bad guy because of how fast their health depletes.  You're right in that that's where I'm getting hit all the time.  Even with Cyclonic 4, you're shield gated after 2 hits and dead on the third and when you play platinum only, those three hits can come quick!

[Deerber]

I've been using the Harrier with him with rate of fire increase. The damage output is ridiculous but I always seem to want to wait around for that extra second to drop a bad guy because of how fast their health depletes. You're right in that that's where I'm getting hit all the time. Even with Cyclonic 4, you're shield gated after 2 hits and dead on the third and when you play platinum only, those three hits can come quick!

If you want him to be more survivable, adrenaline III will help him much more than a cyclonic IV, especially on platinum. Read my post above for a rough explanation.

However, rest assured that, when played right, he can survive very well even with neither a cyclonic nor an adrenaline module, and with a saber instead of a harrier. I should know, I've been running him with a stab module for the last... Couple years or so. Just saying, it's possible, I'm sure you will be able to do it too, if you play it long enough. Don't give up on him yet, he's a cool guy

[eighteighty]

If you want him to be more survivable, adrenaline III will help him much more than a cyclonic IV, especially on platinum. Read my post above for a rough explanation.

However, rest assured that, when played right, he can survive very well even with neither a cyclonic nor an adrenaline module, and with a saber instead of a harrier. I should know, I've been running him with a stab module for the last... Couple years or so. Just saying, it's possible, I'm sure you will be able to do it too, if you play it long enough. Don't give up on him yet, he's a cool guy

I didn't think of using the Adrenaline.  I do the same with my DA which keeps him alive because of the speed (well that and 40% DR due to Reave... except facing those damn Geth).  I play my BatSol SUPER fast and aggressive so maybe I will try him again with FAST in mind and more of a run and gun type rather than a Destroyer "sit still and mow stuff down" type

I've never been crazy about the Saber just because I feel that it's the type of gun that's better suited by playing with a mouse than an xbox controller.  But with that Rate of Fire increase, it might not be as critical to miss with it sometimes as it is without the increase.  Don't get me wrong, I am a damage queen but I probably just have average headshot aim; I typically aim for the body and work up to the head if I need to. 

[Deerber]

I didn't think of using the Adrenaline.  I do the same with my DA which keeps him alive because of the speed (well that and 40% DR due to Reave... except facing those damn Geth).  I play my BatSol SUPER fast and aggressive so maybe I will try him again with FAST in mind and more of a run and gun type rather than a Destroyer "sit still and mow stuff down" type

I've never been crazy about the Saber just because I feel that it's the type of gun that's better suited by playing with a mouse than an xbox controller.  But with that Rate of Fire increase, it might not be as critical to miss with it sometimes as it is without the increase.  Don't get me wrong, I am a damage queen but I probably just have average headshot aim; I typically aim for the body and work up to the head if I need to. 

 

Reave DR works on syntethics too But trust me when I say that your speed and acceleration are what's keeping you alive as a DA, not the reave DR, which doesn't mean much with that amount of shields. If you find him less survivable against Geth it's because they're motherfucking cheaters.

 

But yes, he's definitely more a run and gun guy than someone like a destroyer. You play him like that, he goes down like a fly, yep.

 

About the saber, yeah, I can totally understand that. You need very good aim to make it work good, and I couldn't see myself reaching that kind of aiming with a controller. I know for sure some can do that, but it's gonna be pretty hard I'm sure. RoF bonuses will help a bit with that... But just a bit, really. I only mentioned it cause it certainly provides less survivability than a harrier, exactly because it requires a perfect aim to be at its best, and only the bots never miss

[q5tyhj]

I've never been crazy about the Saber just because I feel that it's the type of gun that's better suited by playing with a mouse than an xbox controller.  But with that Rate of Fire increase, it might not be as critical to miss with it sometimes as it is without the increase.  Don't get me wrong, I am a damage queen but I probably just have average headshot aim; I typically aim for the body and work up to the head if I need to. 

The Saber is basically a completely different gun with those AR/HM/DM rate of fire buffs. I won't even use the thing anymore on classes that don't have 'em. 

[crashsuit]

With few exceptions, for kits with movement speed bonuses, I spec into it and stack AM3 on top of that. I feel like it keeps me on my feet better than CM4 on the same kits.

[Marksmad is waving goodbye]

What Capn said actually makes perfect sense. Each race has hidden attributes regarding their speed in general and, more importantly, their acceleration, which one inevitably fails to account for when thinking about how survivable a kit is/should be.

And yet, given how much damage the enemies cause on gold+, and how enemy accuracy works in this game, when it comes to make a kit more survivable the amount of shields and health gets actually trampled by the ability to reach soft cover faster and in a more reliable way.
 

 

Thinking about what you and Capn233 said, I am coming round to agreeing that it must be the movement, and probably the acceleration (or lack of it on the ACA) because that's what keeps one in harm's way. The kits I compared it with (Justicar and SmashDept) both have quicker acceleration into their dodge, so it makes sense.

 

I still can't believe the Seeker Swarms give the stated DR, though.

[Ashevajak]

With the Quarksman, I've found AM III and/or a Geth Scanner keep him alive plenty well enough, at least on Gold.  Hell, with the Scanner you don't even need AM, you can use something less valuable, like Shield Power Cells or a Stability module in its place.

[Quarian Master Race]

With the Quarksman, I've found AM III and/or a Geth Scanner keep him alive plenty well enough, at least on Gold.  Hell, with the Scanner you don't even need AM, you can use something less valuable, like Shield Power Cells or a Stability module in its place.

+2 for not whinging about L2P issues with quarian

-1 for crutch scanner

Since i'm lolconsole, AM's have an additional benefit. Aiming sensitivity is somehow connected to movement speed, and since quarian marksman relies on his weapons for stagger/ CC, speeding up the rate at which you can get on and switch targets provides extra survivability on top of the movement speed.

[Stillsean]

 I suspect part of the problem is that people think of him as tanky, and play him somewhat accordingly- and if you play him as if he were a tanky class, he's going to die. ALOT. If, on the other hand, you play him like a normal adept, you'll likely find him highly durable, relative to most of the other adepts. 

The whole point is a kit with 1000+ shield and DR bonuses should be tanky and I would play him accordingly otherwise I'd just stick to Drelling...

[Chealec]

ACA is one of those kits that it took me a few respecs to find a build I was happy with. Essentially, I'm just not good enough to run a zero fitness build on him but I figured Dark Channel (on the ACA) is a power you either want to go all-in or stop at tier 4, the tier 5 evos aren't that special.

 

So I settled on a 6/6/4/6/4 build - amazing for crowd control.

 

DS > DC > throw SS > Detonate DS > throw SS and mop up with CSMG if required.

 

You do need to put a decent gun on him though, the cooldowns are so long that you'll spend more time shooting stuff than you might with other Adepts; the CSMG is light, accurate, racks up a 25% damage bonus through the passive tree on this build and gets a bonus vs armour - which is helpful as unarmoured targets will generally be mook/captain level and therefore DS fodder.

 

This is arguably my favourite adept to play (closely followed by the Fury and KroDept).

[Chealec]

The whole point is a kit with 1000+ shield and DR bonuses should be tanky and I would play him accordingly otherwise I'd just stick to Drelling...

 

 

He is quite tanky, especially for an Adept, but he has really long animations so you get shot more... the trick, with DS at least, is to start casting it from in soft cover and just step out as it's ready to launch - the casting animation doesn't prevent you moving.

 

Every kit, no matter how tanky, is somewhat vulnerable to 60FPS rapid fire weapons on PC (Collector Captains, Cerberus Centurians, Marauders and so on) - pair that with long animation times and you'll have a bad day unless you're a little careful.