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Did Calian dug his own grave?(Spoilers)


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#1
sgy0003

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First of all, by the first conversation I think I can tell Ducan warned him how dangerous the darkspawns are, but he didn't listen. As my character pointed out, he didn't eem to take Darkspawn seriously.

 

Secondly, why in the name of maker(see what i did there?) would he Loghain? IIF you were him, would you trust someone with that kind of face? He has the word +bad guy" written all over him

 

Lastly, WHY THE HELL would he just let that ogre hold him? I mean, couldn't he stab its' hand or something?

 

I don't know guys, i think he was just being stupid



#2
DracoAngel

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Loghain has been a friend to King Maric for years (back when they were fighting the Orlesian occupation), and helped raise Cailan when Maric went missing. There was no reason for Cailan to not trust him.

 

As we find out later from the Return to Ostagar, Cailan knew what kind of threat the darkspawn really were. He knew that they had no chance of winning but he couldn't show that fear to his men.

 

As to the weapon, didn't he drop it? And even if he didn't, being grabbed like that kinda would stun someone, making them not as quick on the draw. Also, it was a 2-handed sword, harder to wield something that massive up to stab a hand holding him



#3
Kenshen

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Well to be fair I doubt even the king was told the full story about what a blight truly meant and why wardens are so important in stopping it.  Maybe if Duncan would have shared those secrets Cailan would have taken the battle more seriously. I don't remember Return of Ostagar so maybe he did know those secrets and if so then yes he was being foolish and careless with his men and country.



#4
X Equestris

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Cailan had doubts that the darkspawn incursion was even really a true Blight. Duncan was being vague on how he knew it was in order to keep the Grey Warden's secrets, but that ended up reinforcing the idea that it wasn't really that big of a deal. There were likely even more darkspawn than originally estimated, so the battle plan at Ostagar was probably going to fail even if Loghain had charged like he was supposed to. Loghain's men probably would have been attacked in the rear by even more Darkspawn as they encircled the darkspawn engaging Cailan.

Cailan probably was a little naive about what fighting the darkspawn would be like, especially since initial skirmishes had been successful, and there hadn't been a Blight in centuries.

As for when he was picked up by the ogre, I doubt stabbing it, if he even still had his sword, would have worked. In DA2's prologue, wife Carver is the sibling who dies, he tries to attack the ogre, but it shrugs it off, picks him up, and smashes him into the ground. One sword stroke probably wouldn't have done much to dislodge Cailan.

#5
Hydwn

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It was stupid, in a lot of ways, but I don't think Loghain's looks should have counted for it :P

 

One thing that really fascinated me about doing Return to Ostagar with Loghain in the party is that when you find those mysterious and vague letters of Cailan's, Loghain is able to explain them.  Arl Eamon was trying to convince Cailan to divorce Anora, and Empress Celene of Orlais wanted to move in and marry him, doing through marriage what her uncle had failed to do with war and make one kingdom.  There were signs that Cailan was considering the idea.  And Loghain suspected it, and yet Cailan put his life in Loghain's hands anyway. 

 

If he really had divorced Anora and married Celene, it would have been civil war for sure.  He was just that much of an idiot.

 

As for the Ogre, I think the problem was that Cailan was trained with a sword by teachers at his father's palace, and read a lot of romantic war stories.  I don't think he'd ever seen real battle before Ostagar, and the first few Darkspawn skirmishes were minor.  He had no idea what to do with an ogre, and was in shock.  The contrast between him and seasoned veteran Duncan is all the more obvious.


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#6
Andreas Amell

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Since Cailan did write to Queen Celene for aid I think he did see the darkspawn invasion as a serious threat. But after the third battle he began to doubt it was a true Blight and just became cocky with all the victories. Of course, he was being foolhardy being on the battlefield at Ostagar. He should have commanded from further away. Nobody had seen the archdemon, which means they never thought the darkspawn were being directed by a smarter mind. Youthful enthusiasm with naivite, but he truly believed in uniting all the people to fight the Blight.

 

As for Queen Celene, readers would know that she would probably would never have married Cailan. She's kept every Orlesian suitor at arms length to secure her authority and safety. Marrying him would have made her vulnerable at her own court where they play their 'game'. 



#7
X Equestris

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Since Cailan did write to Queen Celene for aid I think he did see the darkspawn invasion as a serious threat. But after the third battle he began to doubt it was a true Blight and just became cocky with all the victories. Of course, he was being foolhardy being on the battlefield at Ostagar. He should have commanded from further away. Nobody had seen the archdemon, which means they never thought the darkspawn were being directed by a smarter mind. Youthful enthusiasm with naivite, but he truly believed in uniting all the people to fight the Blight.
 
As for Queen Celene, readers would know that she would probably would never have married Cailan. She's kept every Orlesian suitor at arms length to secure her authority and safety. Marrying him would have made her vulnerable at her own court where they play their 'game'.


She mentions very briefly that she was really considering marrying Cailan due to the political advantages that uniting Ferelden and Orlais through peaceful means would bring.

#8
Andreas Amell

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She mentions very briefly that she was really considering marrying Cailan due to the political advantages that uniting Ferelden and Orlais through peaceful means would bring.

Was she sincere, or was that an empty statement to keep the nobles guessing? Orlesian court politics looks rather ridiculous. An opportunity can become a fatal mistake. I wonder if they have any real integrity.



#9
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Cailan dug his own grave, but Loghain shoved him in.

 

That's how I see it. 


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#10
gottaloveme

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Velvet Cailan - I mean really? Thank the Maker Maric had two sons :D



#11
X Equestris

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Was she sincere, or was that an empty statement to keep the nobles guessing? Orlesian court politics looks rather ridiculous. An opportunity can become a fatal mistake. I wonder if they have any real integrity.


It was in her own thoughts and a conversation with Briala, so I imagine it was sincere.

#12
Riverdaleswhiteflash

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Was she sincere, or was that an empty statement to keep the nobles guessing? Orlesian court politics looks rather ridiculous. An opportunity can become a fatal mistake. I wonder if they have any real integrity.

I don't think we can know Celene's motivations for doing and saying what she said and did. That said, she's not wrong that reconciling with Ferelden and making them loyal Orlesians (and vica versa for the Orlesians to some degree becoming Fereldens, since this would be necessary for this idea to work out the way the two wanted it to) would lead to a newborn nation with greater power than either alone could hope to wield. However, I do believe that both Celene and Cailan were fools to think it could happen within their lifetimes, and that's assuming it is ever going to be possible.


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#13
Aimi

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Since Cailan did write to Queen Celene for aid I think he did see the darkspawn invasion as a serious threat. But after the third battle he began to doubt it was a true Blight and just became cocky with all the victories. Of course, he was being foolhardy being on the battlefield at Ostagar. He should have commanded from further away. Nobody had seen the archdemon, which means they never thought the darkspawn were being directed by a smarter mind. Youthful enthusiasm with naivite, but he truly believed in uniting all the people to fight the Blight.


"Commanding from far away" was effectively impossible in mid-battle before the advent of, say, firearms (when formations generally stopped getting tangled up in each other so much as soon as a battle started). It'd have been utterly pointless; the king might have been able to see the whole battlefield (emphasis on might) but certainly would not have been able to send orders and direct troops that were already engaged without opening up a horrendous amount of delay. When an hour could pass between the issuing of an order and its execution, the tactical situation had almost always completely changed anyway, making the order useless at best and actively detrimental at worst.

We do not speak of Schlieffen's "modern Alexander" with telegraphs, telephones, radio, cars, and planes to speed messages along; we don't even speak of a Medieval Total War commander with instant, perfect reactivity to orders issued and instant, perfect information on which to base those orders. We must, as Loghain said, attend to reality, and reality is that a general who stayed away from the fight would be as useless during the fight as though he were on the far side of the Moon.

In concrete terms, the king's personal presence with his men added little than the skills of a single soldier, true enough. And a king's death in battle - especially given the lack of an obvious successor - could be catastrophic for a kingdom, as it was for Ferelden. But the king was not merely a lawgiver and ruler and symbol. His political power descended, first and foremost, from his role as military commander: defender of the realm and his subjects, destroyer of their enemies. Medieval European rulership was highly ritualized around kings' martial roles. And failure to perform the ritual properly - whether that meant a procession into a city or participation in battle - eroded anybody's interest in having that particular king around.

Put another way, not participating in battle meant that a king could very well be accused of not doing his job. And participating in battle accumulated glory and prestige almost regardless of battle's outcome. Contrary to Loghain's complaints, military glory was very much a currency one could spend as a ruler. It had meaningful value: in diplomacy, in internal politics, and even in operational maneuvering. A blooded warrior-commander commands significantly more respect from both subjects and military opponents than does a callow tyro general.

Cailan comes in for censure in this thread not because of process. A long line of historical warrior-kings, and the laurels they gathered in battle, attests to that. He comes in for censure because of result: his army lost at Ostagar, whether because of him or someone else, and he died in battle, and his death sparked a civil war that nearly destroyed Ferelden. But that result was based on a coin-flip, as battle always is. Set-piece engagements are lotteries, as the truism (correctly) goes. And it was a necessary coin-flip, because there is no other way to defeat darkspawn than by killing them: operational maneuver is pointless because of the non-combat effect of the Blight.

Cailan was unlucky, and he was a victim of a traitorous subordinate; he did not exhibit particular military skill but it's unclear that any such skill would have been enough to save either himself or his army in the face of Loghain's betrayal. And it's further unclear that any better plan existed than the one that led to the final catastrophe at Ostagar. If that counts as digging one's own grave, well, the answer to the OP's question is 'yes'.

#14
Mike3207

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I'd like to know if anyone thinks it would have made a difference if Cailan had been wearing the helmet. That degree of health regeneration-it might have made a difference about surviving the ogre.



#15
Riverdaleswhiteflash

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I'd like to know if anyone thinks it would have made a difference if Cailan had been wearing the helmet. That degree of health regeneration-it might have made a difference about surviving the ogre.

If you would have gotten KO'd in one shot without your health regeneration, I think you still get KO'd in one shot after taking it into account. Health regeneration seems like the sort of thing that is only useful if you survive long enough for it to be.

 

 

One thing that really fascinated me about doing Return to Ostagar with Loghain in the party is that when you find those mysterious and vague letters of Cailan's, Loghain is able to explain them.  Arl Eamon was trying to convince Cailan to divorce Anora, and Empress Celene of Orlais wanted to move in and marry him, doing through marriage what her uncle had failed to do with war and make one kingdom.  There were signs that Cailan was considering the idea.  And Loghain suspected it, and yet Cailan put his life in Loghain's hands anyway.

I got the opposite impression from Loghain's reaction to the letters: he came up with an explanation fairly quickly, but the conclusion he came to seemed to have caught him completely off-guard.



#16
Hydwn

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If you would have gotten KO'd in one shot without your health regeneration, I think you still get KO'd in one shot after taking it into account. Health regeneration seems like the sort of thing that is only useful if you survive long enough for it to be.

 

 
 

I got the opposite impression from Loghain's reaction to the letters: he came up with an explanation fairly quickly, but the conclusion he came to seemed to have caught him completely off-guard.

 

They were yelling about something though, and the guard outside his tent said it involved the queen (if you have a persuade skill high enough to get him to talk).  If it was just an argument about the Orlesians, I doubt her name would have come up.

 

I like the idea that Loghain was personally insulted.  It wasn't just about having the Orlesians come in and fearing they wouldn't leave.  His own daughter would be put aside, and Ferelden would become a province through marriage.  It actually makes him slightly more sympathetic in my eyes, and a better-written villain :)



#17
sylvanaerie

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The letters were part of the original story plot line but were scrapped for time/budget (whatever) reasons.  They released them with RtO.  My biggest issue with RtO is the monumental OOCness of the characters involved.   Cougar Wynne, Alistair being more broken up by Cailan than Duncan's death, Zevran's idiotic -5 approval just for burning Cailan's body...  Cailan knew they were all going to lose the fight?  And yet he proceeded anyway?  WTF Bioware?  It comes off to me like a massive idiot retcon meant to 'whitewash' Loghain's betrayal.  After the first couple times playing it, I just stopped.  I play on PC and hardly needed the armor/weapons since I already had better with mods.

 

As for the Ogre grabbing him and him making a stab to get dropped, 1) he dropped his sword---don't know why he wouldn't have had something more handy to defend himself in that instance like a dagger or short sword.  2) when grappled it's hard to position a honkin' huge 2 handed blade to get enough leverage to make any kind of significant blow--he does try, but it gets knocked out of his hands by the ogre with all the difficulty of swatting a fly.


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#18
Hazegurl

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First of all, by the first conversation I think I can tell Ducan warned him how dangerous the darkspawns are, but he didn't listen. As my character pointed out, he didn't eem to take Darkspawn seriously.

 

Secondly, why in the name of maker(see what i did there?) would he Loghain? IIF you were him, would you trust someone with that kind of face? He has the word +bad guy" written all over him

 

Lastly, WHY THE HELL would he just let that ogre hold him? I mean, couldn't he stab its' hand or something?

 

I don't know guys, i think he was just being stupid

I called Calian a moron when I first encounter him. The only thing I can say in his defense is that Duncan didn't give him the full story and was coddling him in his own way. He knew The King's delusion allowed the Wardens to operate with support in Ferelden. It blew up in Duncan's face in the end though.

 

He should have known how desperate Loghain would be against Orlais but I can't blame him 100% for Loghain's treachery. I will say that Calian's battle tactics sucked big time regardless of Loghain's involvement. He had no scouts to tell him how far the darkspawn horde stretched, he orders ONE volley of arrows, no siege weapons used,  sends MABARI hounds as front line defense, and barely had any mages on hand. It's no wonder he couldn't do much when the Orge grabbed him, he didn't prepare properly for anything.  I don't blame Loghain for splitting. Duncan was a moron for not fleeing the battlefield.


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#19
Jaison1986

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The letters were part of the original story plot line but were scrapped for time/budget (whatever) reasons.  They released them with RtO.  My biggest issue with RtO is the monumental OOCness of the characters involved.   Cougar Wynne, Alistair being more broken up by Cailan than Duncan's death, Zevran's idiotic -5 approval just for burning Cailan's body...  Cailan knew they were all going to lose the fight?  And yet he proceeded anyway?  WTF Bioware?  It comes off to me like a massive idiot retcon meant to 'whitewash' Loghain's betrayal.  After the first couple times playing it, I just stopped.  I play on PC and hardly needed the armor/weapons since I already had better with mods.

 

As for the Ogre grabbing him and him making a stab to get dropped, 1) he dropped his sword---don't know why he wouldn't have had something more handy to defend himself in that instance like a dagger or short sword.  2) when grappled it's hard to position a honkin' huge 2 handed blade to get enough leverage to make any kind of significant blow--he does try, but it gets knocked out of his hands by the ogre with all the difficulty of swatting a fly.

 

Wynne had an templar lover that got her pregnant once. She surely is no innocent, so she flirting with Alistair doesn't strike me as OOC. Not to mention she was just teasing him anyway. We don't know Zevran opinion on Cailan, so there is no way to know what is OOC from him or not. And as for Cailan, he was shown to be an fool from day 01. Him making stupic strategic decisions doesn't surprise me. So long story short, I don't think there was an need to "whitewash" Loghain for Ostagar. When it comes to Ostagar I think Loghain shares little blame. Resent him all you want for his actions after it. But I don't think it's right to put the weight of Cailan and Duncan's mistake on Loghain's shoulders.



#20
sylvanaerie

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Wynne had an templar lover that got her pregnant once. She surely is no innocent, so she flirting with Alistair doesn't strike me as OOC. Not to mention she was just teasing him anyway. We don't know Zevran opinion on Cailan, so there is no way to know what is OOC from him or not. And as for Cailan, he was shown to be an fool from day 01. Him making stupic strategic decisions doesn't surprise me. So long story short, I don't think there was an need to "whitewash" Loghain for Ostagar. When it comes to Ostagar I think Loghain shares little blame. Resent him all you want for his actions after it. But I don't think it's right to put the weight of Cailan and Duncan's mistake on Loghain's shoulders.

 

Wynne's treatment at every other turn of the game in regards to Alistair was as a 'motherly' person.  She even makes mention she has a son his age.  Suddenly have her flirting with him was massively OOC, teasing or not--especially hurtful if the Warden is romancing Alistair at the time, considering one of her talks is how she disapproves of the Warden's relationship with him.  In the rest of the game her teasing was more motherly (or she teases his inexperience in dealing with romantic feelings for the warden--like all the other companions do). RtO was done by a different writing team so I chalk it down to someone trying to be clever with her and grossly missing the mark.

 

Zevran was the chillest companion, apathetic unless you attempt to screw over the elves or oppress an underdog (like selling out the slaves in Denerim or choosing to annul the Circle).  A -5 approval just for observing funereal rites appropriate to your region from the normally apathetic elf was massively OOC especially without any other--as in dialogue--indication it would gain that much disapproval.  I get the feeling it was only there because the writers involved in the DLC decided "he's a darker companion, so therefore he must disapprove".

 

Ostagar was a perfect sh*tstorm of mistakes, from everyone involved.  Cailan was an idiot, Duncan should have been more up front with his allies and Loghain shouldn't have been so adamant to keep out other Wardens.  I can understand why each of them did what they did, but it doesn't change the fact that all three contributed to the vale of tears that was Ostagar.  

Not going to derail this thread with a "Loghain was right to abandon the troops at Ostagar debate" because that's a horse that's been beaten to death on these boards and frankly, I'm bored with that argument.  Everyone has an opinion about it, his culpability is all in how people perceive his role in the events that happened.  If you choose to perceive it differently from me, I'm cool with that.  Truly.  Maybe we can 'agree to disagree' on this topic as neither of us is going to change the other's mind at this late time. 


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#21
theskymoves

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Wynne's treatment at every other turn of the game in regards to Alistair was as a 'motherly' person.  She even makes mention she has a son his age.  Suddenly have her flirting with him was massively OOC, teasing or not.  In the rest of the game her teasing was more motherly (or she teases his inexperience in dealing with romantic feelings for the warden--like all the other companions do). RtO was done by a different writing team so I chalk it down to someone trying to be clever with her and grossly missing the mark.

 

 

I think Wynne's dialogue is very OOC as well. And really odd and inappropriate, considering the incredibly grim tasks at hand. My approach to dealing with the really awful writing (and the lack of any challenge, combat-wise) is to either solo the DLC or not take any companions other than Alistair and maybe Dawg.


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#22
Ryriena

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The letters were part of the original story plot line but were scrapped for time/budget (whatever) reasons.  They released them with RtO.  My biggest issue with RtO is the monumental OOCness of the characters involved.   Cougar Wynne, Alistair being more broken up by Cailan than Duncan's death, Zevran's idiotic -5 approval just for burning Cailan's body...  Cailan knew they were all going to lose the fight?  And yet he proceeded anyway?  WTF Bioware?  It comes off to me like a massive idiot retcon meant to 'whitewash' Loghain's betrayal.  After the first couple times playing it, I just stopped.  I play on PC and hardly needed the armor/weapons since I already had better with mods.
 
As for the Ogre grabbing him and him making a stab to get dropped, 1) he dropped his sword---don't know why he wouldn't have had something more handy to defend himself in that instance like a dagger or short sword.  2) when grappled it's hard to position a honkin' huge 2 handed blade to get enough leverage to make any kind of significant blow--he does try, but it gets knocked out of his hands by the ogre with all the difficulty of swatting a fly.



I too have trouble with a lot of the occness of RTO, and yeah apparently Cailan knew that he would lose and didn't show any hint of knowning he would loose the fight to us when we first met him. He was even thrilled with fighting the blight along side the Gray Wardens and made sure not to show doubts of his wining this fight to us in the talks we had with him. I did a little eye roll with that line Elric gave us to in the talk with him.
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#23
Hazegurl

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I agree, the talk between Alistair and Wynne was odd. I just try to ignore them or not take Wynne along. I didn't bother to read the parts about Calian knowing he would lose. It sounds to me like the writing team didn't even play the vanilla game. He was happy to fight with the wardens and his main desire was to be known as a King who fought the darkspawn beside the Grey Wardens. He wanted to be a hero not a tragic figure. There was no way Calian thought he was going to lose, he didn't even think it was a real blight and remarked several times at how easy it was to beat them. *sigh*


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#24
Neverwinter_Knight77

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Finding out about Cailan's alleged infidelity made me lose respect for him. I like to think my prince-consort Cousland knows how to treat a lady.