43 réponses à ce sujet

[JasonShepard]

Let's say Shepard has taken Control of the Reapers, and the War is now over. What is the right thing to do with all that power?

 

I'm asking because I don't think there's an easy answer to this question. Yes, power corrupts. But there's also the well-known Gospel of Uncle Benjamin: With great power comes great responsibility.

 

The immediate aftermath of a war is not a pleasant place. People will be dying. Starving for food, fighting over resources, desperate for medical supplies. Just because the fighting has stopped doesn't mean everything is sunshine and rainbows.

 

My argument is this: Immediately flying the Reapers into the Sun is not the responsible thing to do with all that power.

 

I imagine most of you would agree that, at the very least, a Shepard that picked Control should repair the Relays first. But even once the Relays are reactivated, there are still more lives to be saved. Food and medical supplies to be transported. Heck, even once the galaxy has been rebuilt, flying the Reaper fleet into a black hole is still sacrificing technology and knowledge that could be used to improve quality of life for everyone.

 

So where do you draw the line? When do the risks of using the Reapers outweigh the lives that could be saved by using them?

 

***

 

(In before: "The right choice is to turn around and pick Destroy instead." If that's your response, pretend it's a situation where Control is the only Crucible option.)

[themikefest]

Help rebuild and then fly his/her new toys into the nearest sun. That's what I'd do.  I will stick with choosing destroy

[DrBlingzle]

I'd say rebuild the relays, share the technology, culture and history of the cycles that went before, make sure the galaxy is relatively stable and then fly the reapers into darkspace, only to return when the galaxy needs them most.

[RatThing]

Well, first it's not Shepard who controls the Reapers but an AI that is based on Shepard's character, and you don't have a guarantee that it stays stable and doesn't go south someday (maybe even come to the same conclusion as the original catalyst)

 

Second I think most people who pick control and want to fly the Reaper in a sun just look for a way to get rid of the Reaper but spare the Geth. Otherwise I don't see a reason not to pick destroy.

 

But let's assume it really is Shepard who controls the Reapers. To me, using Reaper tech to help the Galaxy is not much different from the Salarians uplifting the Krogans. The races would depend on a techology they don't understand and they are not ready for. The consequences of that are unclear. So if control is my only option and I'd have to pick how to use it, I would do exactly what the op rejects. Maybe help to rebuild and then getting rid of all Reaper tech. I wouldn't even rebuild the mass relays. The races should do what Aethyta suggests and build their own relays.

[dreamgazer]

I'm not saying Reaper arena fighting, but ... Reaper arena fighting. 

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Professional Reaper Wrestling live!

 

 

 

And post destroy ending there will be evolution of biotic life on all worlds where the reaper drive cores may have ruptured and spilled refined eezo. So The Illusive Man was right after all. The Reapers will do for us what the Mars Archives did 1000 fold. We'll have biotic plants.

[Kabooooom]

Well, first it's not Shepard who controls the Reapers but an AI that is based on Shepard's character, and you don't have a guarantee that it stays stable and doesn't go south someday (maybe even come to the same conclusion as the original catalyst)

Second I think most people who pick control and want to fly the Reaper in a sun just look for a way to get rid of the Reaper but spare the Geth. Otherwise I don't see a reason not to pick destroy.

But let's assume it really is Shepard who controls the Reapers. To me, using Reaper tech to help the Galaxy is not much different from the Salarians uplifting the Krogans. The races would depend on a techology they don't understand and they are not ready for. The consequences of that are unclear. So if control is my only option and I'd have to pick how to use it, I would do exactly what the op rejects. Maybe help to rebuild and then getting rid of all Reaper tech. I wouldn't even rebuild the mass relays. The races should do what Aethyta suggests and build their own relays.

The Shepard AI is fundamentally equivalent to the consciousness of Shepard (see the discussion we are having in the Lazarus thread for why this is), and the Catalyst confirms this: He repeatedly phrases his explanation in the form of "your thoughts and memories will continue, your corporeal form will die, you will become synthetic, you will lose the connection to your kind, but YOU will continue to remain aware of their existence".

He is not speaking as if Shepard's mind will cease to exist and a new AI will take his place. Because the two are functionally equivalent. He is speaking as if Shepard will undergo true transcendence - mind uploading.

[RatThing]

The Shepard AI is fundamentally equivalent to the consciousness of Shepard (see the discussion we are having in the Lazarus thread for why this is), and the Catalyst confirms this: He repeatedly phrases his explanation in the form of "your thoughts and memories will continue, your corporeal form will die, you will become synthetic, you will lose the connection to your kind, but YOU will continue to remain aware of their existence".

He is not speaking as if Shepard's mind will cease to exist and a new AI will take his place. Because the two are functionally equivalent. He is speaking as if Shepard will undergo true transcendence - mind uploading.

 

And if you pick control the voiceover will say "through his/her death I was created". Sorry but a) I dont believe everything the catalyst say and b ) I don't believe one can undergo such a drastic procedure on his mind without any change of personality ( I don't even belive one is still alive after that). Would a simple human mind even be able to control a whole Reaper army given the amount of information it would have to process? 

[Excella Gionne]

Have Reapers be teachers in pre-school. Is there a pre-school program?

[JasonShepard]

But let's assume it really is Shepard who controls the Reapers. To me, using Reaper tech to help the Galaxy is not much different from the Salarians uplifting the Krogans. The races would depend on a techology they don't understand and they are not ready for. The consequences of that are unclear. So if control is my only option and I'd have to pick how to use it, I would do exactly what the op rejects. Maybe help to rebuild and then getting rid of all Reaper tech. I wouldn't even rebuild the mass relays. The races should do what Aethyta suggests and build their own relays.

 

Why not rebuild the relays? What's the harm? Are you really going to fracture galactic civilisation on the basis of principle? It will take decades, at minimum, for them to rebuild the network on their own. That's a heck of a lot of people stranded in the meantime. What's the benefit?

 

 

And if you pick control the voiceover will say "through his/her death I was created". Sorry but a) I dont believe everything the catalyst say and b ) I don't believe one can undergo such a drastic procedure on his mind without any change of personality ( I don't even belive one is still alive after that). Would a simple human mind even be able to control a whole Reaper army given the amount of information it would have to process? 

 

a ) So why do you believe anything the Catalyst says?

 

b ) Yeah, I'd agree. Control is going to cause a personality shift. But I don't think a personality shift is equivalent to death.

[RatThing]

That's not only a principle. Mass relays are capable of destroying whole solar systems (see Arrival) and afaik the galactic community doesn't really know how they work. I'd be worried if I had one of these in my solar system and there'd be no one who can repair or dismantle it in case of

emergency.

 

Edit: another reason not to keep them is what happened with the Rachni. There might be even more unpleasant species in the Galaxy. Would you want to leave your door open for them?

 

As for the catalyst, I don't believe it's lying but keep in mind that you deal with an intelligence that believed harvesting life (killing it in the process) is preserving life. It is telling you its version of the truth and who knows what this thing understands under consciousness awareness and personality.

[SporkFu]

I think shepalyst would repair the citadel and the relay network, and help to repair as much of the damage done in the war harvest as possible, then she would gather the leaders of every civilization and planet and system together, wag her finger at them and say, "don't ever threaten my peace again, or- *throat-slashing gesture*" ... and then she'd take a hands-off approach, keeping the reapers in dark space indefinitely and letting life evolve on its own, without interference from someone who thinks it knows better. 

[KaiserShep]

Open a reaper club on Omega and have nothing but banshees as dancers.

[SporkFu]

Open a reaper club on Omega and have nothing but banshees as dancers.

Tonight! Appearing LIVE at the Dilinaga Concert Hall! Back by popular demand! The Armali All-Banshee Interstellar Choir!

 

"**** With shock and Joy: They will make your ears bleed." -- 'Hamlet' actor

[NeroonWilliams]

 

Let's say Shepard has taken Control of the Reapers, and the War is now over. What is the right thing to do with all that power?

 

I'm asking because I don't think there's an easy answer to this question. Yes, power corrupts. But there's also the well-known Gospel of Uncle Benjamin: With great power comes great responsibility.

 

The immediate aftermath of a war is not a pleasant place. People will be dying. Starving for food, fighting over resources, desperate for medical supplies. Just because the fighting has stopped doesn't mean everything is sunshine and rainbows.

 

My argument is this: Immediately flying the Reapers into the Sun is not the responsible thing to do with all that power.

 

I imagine most of you would agree that, at the very least, a Shepard that picked Control should repair the Relays first. But even once the Relays are reactivated, there are still more lives to be saved. Food and medical supplies to be transported. Heck, even once the galaxy has been rebuilt, flying the Reaper fleet into a black hole is still sacrificing technology and knowledge that could be used to improve quality of life for everyone.

 

So where do you draw the line? When do the risks of using the Reapers outweigh the lives that could be saved by using them?

 

***

 

(In before: "The right choice is to turn around and pick Destroy instead." If that's your response, pretend it's a situation where Control is the only Crucible option.)

 

You're right when you invoke the wisdom of Uncle Ben.  The reason my first Shepard chose Control was that I recognized the logic (sad though it is) of the cycle.  Once the Relays were repaired, MY Shepalyst withdrew the Reapers back to dark space to wait for a new Synthetic revolution, at which time they would reemerge to continue the cycles.  Not a perfect solution, but a necessary evil to avoid the asymptote of death.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 Rule.

 

 

... except Shepard is too stupid to do that.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

No one would know that Shepard ended the war.... and then the Shepard jokes would start.

[RanetheViking]

The Reapers should be made to do all Public Service Announcements.

 

"STAY IN SCHOOL OR I WILL TEAR YOU APART!!"

 

"DON'T DO DRUGS KIDS, OR YOU WILL KNOW PAIN."

 

"I AM HARBINGER AND DRUGS ARE BAD. M''KAY?"

[Dabrikishaw]

Form a Reaper-Justice League.

[SilJeff]

I'd say rebuild the relays, share the technology, culture and history of the cycles that went before, make sure the galaxy is relatively stable and then fly the reapers into darkspace, only to return when the galaxy needs them most.

Basically this for me too. I think the Geth [who usually are seen being buddy buddies with the reapers in the Extended Cut] will become ambassadors or something for the reapers and will tell the dark space reapers whats going on in the galaxy and will be like UN peacekeeping soldiers in case of major wars within the galaxy need intervention. The reapers themselves will never be used for fights within the galaxy, but for reaper sized threats from other galaxies

[Cknarf]

CRUSH ALL THAT OPPOSE YOU

[MrFob]

I think RatThing is correct. This question is irrelevant because it is not going to be Shepard who controls the reapers but a Shepard based AI.

What this AI will do is also made quite clear in the EC epilogue slides. It is clear that the AI does not intend to fly the reapers into the sun back to dark space:

now my purpose. To give the many hope for a future; to ensure that all have a voice in their future. / To right the wrongs of the past; to provide a voice to those too weak to speak for themselves. [Or alternatively] To provide the many with a powerful leader; to put an end to the bickering of the many; to ensure the strongest are not feared or reviled for their strength. The man/woman I was knew that he/she could only achieve this by becoming something greater. There is power in control. There is wisdom in harnessing the strengths of your enemy. I will rebuild what the many have lost; I will create a future with limitless possibilities; I will protect, and sustain; I will act as guardian for the many. / I will restore what the many have fought for; I will lead an army that none will dare oppose; I will protect, defend; I will destroy those who threaten the future of the many. And throughout it all, I will never forget; I will remember the ones who sacrificed themselves so that the many could survive. And I will watch over the ones who live on / And I will keep a watchful eye over the ones who live on; those who carry the memory of the man/woman I once was, the man/woman who gave up his/her life / who fought to become the one who could save/lead the many.

Not only does this indicate that the AI will keep the reapers around, it also indicates that it is intending to use them to impose some sort of order over life in the galaxy, shape it towards what it's extrapolation of Shepard's idea of an ideal galaxy. If Shep was paragon, this is an imposed society of equality, if Sep was renegade, it seems to be an imposed class society with the strongest on top. However, in both cases, the Ai clearly plans to keep control over events in the galaxy, at least in the more immediate future.

So, sorry to the people who wanted to "cheat" the catalyst into a benign destroy ending, it's not supported by what's shown in the game.

[JasonShepard]

"This question is irrelevant" ? Ouch.

 

The Control ending speech is arguably open to interpretation, and I'm still of the opinion that the Shepard-AI is actually Shepard, but that's a separate debate. Regardless, Shepard has no knowledge over those things when presented with the choice, but he or she does have the option to consider power, corruption, and responsibility.

 

I'm asking the question in the OP because a common argument against Control is that it's too much power for one person to hold, or that the Reapers are too dangerous to use. I'm trying to find out how rigorously people would stick to those principles if they already had the so-called too much power. If you throw it away immediately, you're throwing away the potential to do a lot of good. You are, by in-action, killing people. In effect, I'm arguing against the Control-as-cheap-Destroy option.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

I think RatThing is correct. This question is irrelevant because it is not going to be Shepard who controls the reapers but a Shepard based AI.

What this AI will do is also made quite clear in the EC epilogue slides. It is clear that the AI does not intend to fly the reapers into the sun back to dark space:

 

 

Not only does this indicate that the AI will keep the reapers around, it also indicates that it is intending to use them to impose some sort of order over life in the galaxy, shape it towards what it's extrapolation of Shepard's idea of an ideal galaxy. If Shep was paragon, this is an imposed society of equality, if Sep was renegade, it seems to be an imposed class society with the strongest on top. However, in both cases, the Ai clearly plans to keep control over events in the galaxy, at least in the more immediate future.

So, sorry to the people who wanted to "cheat" the catalyst into a benign destroy ending, it's not supported by what's shown in the game.

 

Not exactly... I'll use the Virtual Aliens. According to Cerberus Daily News, they were able to download into an organic body and interact with the Council, and organics were able to upload their consciousness into the virtual world that in which they were living. Of course this was completely ignored and forgotten like all the other lore. So The Illusive Man was right after all.

 

Quite honestly I think Bioware screwed the pooch on this ending in the Extended Cut. The Original Ending Control is much more optimistic than any of the endings.

[Excella Gionne]

Reaper Law & Order... *cues Law & Order theme*